Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Today at 02:08 PM

Freely down loadable Boo...
Today at 01:39 PM

Qur'anic studies today
Today at 01:20 PM

Excellence and uniqueness
Yesterday at 12:56 PM

Protests in Iraq
by zeca
November 10, 2019, 11:41 PM

Upcoming movies
by zeca
November 10, 2019, 10:42 PM

مسيو بيجو, بروس-لي, المهن...
November 09, 2019, 03:36 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
November 09, 2019, 09:58 AM

New PM incoming
November 08, 2019, 08:34 PM

'Islamic State' a.k.a. IS...
November 08, 2019, 08:18 PM

Researching Ex-Muslims
November 08, 2019, 12:00 AM

Kashmir endgame
November 07, 2019, 04:25 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: My kid is confused

 (Read 8161 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • My kid is confused
     OP - January 26, 2014, 08:06 AM

    Welll, not only because her parents divorced, but also because she gets double messages about identity and faith.
    I had allowed her to listen to music and explained it wasn't wrong. She confined in her grandmother about our little secret, and of course the bitch went straight to her son and told him everything. When the kiddo eventually told me what had happened, she cried because she felt so betrayed. I don't know exactly what her father told her, but when we talked last night she cried "I like music, but I am very ashamed because I'm Muslim".

    I tried to explain in the best way possible to a 5 year old that mommy isn't Muslim. I saw that this made her very confused and she started crying "but you were before", she also had this strange and sad expression in her face when I told her that I don't believe in allah.

    I don't know what to do. She says she's a Muslim and believes in allah, even though when I asked her what is a Muslim and what is allah, she couldn't answer. I wouldn't mind her saying this, but it becomes a confusing and painful paradox in her life because she feels guilt and shame about "normal" stuff.

    It was so much for her yesterday that she said "please mum can we talk about this tommorrow".

    I want to FREE her from this. I don't want her to beg me to recite quran like I used to. What should I do? Really need help, advice and suport in this.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #1 - January 26, 2014, 08:26 AM

    I am not a mother, and I do hope that forum members who are parents will chime in and share their experiences. I do think that you should keep dialogue open with her. Kids that age are smarter than we think.

    Good luck  far away hug

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #2 - January 26, 2014, 12:02 PM

    Cornflower

    If you haven't considered it, try getting your daughter some music from wherever your husband comes from ( I'm assuming that he has an immigrant background ) - one of the best antidotes to the nonsense that there is something unislamic about music, is to experience the variety of musics composed, sung, performed by Muslims.
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #3 - January 26, 2014, 12:17 PM

    I think it's more about identity. She's going through a very confusing time. I was a similar age to her when my mother legally changed my surname from my father's to hers. My father wasn't a good person. He was incredibly abusive and the best decision my mother ever made was leaving him and taking myself and my siblings away. Despite that, it was incredibly hard on me, and thus harder on my mum. I missed him and I wanted to see him, despite how wicked he was. And changing my name to hers was something that was very confusing for me. It wasn't my name. It wasn't who I was. Though I did eventually become glad of it.

    I would imagine it's similar with your daughter. She feels guilty for liking music because she's been taught that it's wrong. Why it's wrong she doesn't know, only that it is. Same with being a muslim. She can't answer what a muslim is other than saying it's us. Her parents and herself are muslim. It's part of her identity, like her name. This is the way the world is.

    I would guess that it's the same with the quran. It's something familiar and part of her routine. If you used to recite to her Jack and the Beanstalk or Sleeping Beauty and it was something you did together then just stopped she'd also beg you to recite them, just as she's now doing with the quran. It's familiar and familiar is probably something she's desperate for right now. Her entire world changed overnight.

    Engaging with her is what's the most important, and she seems like a smart girl. I remember you mentioning her coming home from being told that non muslims will go to hell and her saying she doesn't think that's right. My best advice is to let her ask questions. There will be times you'll ask her if she's alright and she'll say yes, and you'll know she's lying. Whether or not to press her on it is something you'll have to decide for yourself. Sometimes children just don't want to talk about things, but the thing about that is that if you allow it, it may never be spoken of and end up being a negativity they carry around. If you force it, that could cause anger and frustration and door slamming. And yet often it's what's needed. It's hard finding a balance.

    My advice is to give a sense of the familiar. Although obviously there's a need for understanding, walking on egg shells isn't the way to go. You want everything to be as normal as possible for her. It's about stability. If there's something the two of you usually do together, continue to do it. If she has a favourite TV show, continue to allow her to watch it. If she has a bedtime, continue to say "This is bedtime".

    And above all, don't let the way a five year old child sees the world conflate with your own judgement. If you suspect that her father is up to something, no matter how much she cries, hits, kicks, screams or begs to see him, do not allow it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #4 - January 26, 2014, 12:38 PM

    I asked her this morgning what her father had told her, because even before when I said that "we can listen to other things than music (I made an important part to never shame or guilt-trip my kid, even though I tried to teach her that certain things "are not done" by Muslims), she never felt guilt or shame about it. She even listened to music sometimes when no one else was present. But it was the first time that she cried and said "I'm ashamed" when I asked if she likes music.

    I know her father has scared or said something to fuck with her mind. My daughter has always been a very introvert person when it comes to sharing her feelings and what's happening in her life even though she is a very extrovert person in everything else. It's so hard to make her talk about things. Yesterday I almost didn't make her share the story about her fathers mother and her betrayel when she confined in her about listening to music. She was really hurt and cried for a long time about it... It is obvious he used the two days with him to indoctrinate her with stuff I normally wouldn't allow. She has been very aggressive and rude towards my mom lately (you know, the one who did si7r on me and my ex to seperate us Roll Eyes ), so it's obvious they've talked about her as well.

    I want to introduce to her that there are other religions as well, and I want to introduce science and facts about the universe suitable for her age. Right now it seems she thinks that "allah created the lamp and the bus and the...". She knows of nothing else than being Muslim. Any suggestions or experience or advice is highly appreciated.

    I am so dissapointed in myself that she's been in only Muslim schools and "sheltered" in a way... but at the same time, I am sooo happy that I did not take her "islamic education" so seriously, and never actively taught her about Islamic theology or beliefs... it was just when she asked me or we were confronted by something...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #5 - January 26, 2014, 12:59 PM

    .......... to a 5 year old that mommy isn't Muslim..... When the kiddo eventually told me what had happened, she cried because she felt so betrayed.
    Quote
    .... I want to introduce to her that there are other religions as well, and I want to introduce science and facts about the universe suitable for her age..


    corn flower I am afraid little girl is getting poisoned from all sides,  five year olds  DO NOT NEED  religions.,.. Islam and other religions,  science and social structure of human race.  What they need is love, some one to play games.. some pet.. school .. fun.. park rides.. visiting zoo etc.etc..

     I am of the opinion that YOU SHOULD NOT  alienate her from her father her grand mother.   Kids learn quickly who is telling truth and who is not in conflicting situation.  I hope she is staying with you., So your love and affection is more important than what you teach her on religion and science. Moreover  you will have plenty of time to teach her  from her 2nd grade to 5th grade..

    with best wishes and happy new year.. Get her a pet.. something like A Gerbil..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #6 - January 26, 2014, 01:22 PM

    Kids her age should be eating ice creams and playing mario or pokemon with no care in the world . Religion must never be taught to someone below 13 years of age . I cant really think about any advice which would'nt backlash or some reverse psychology shit happens . Best safest thing is to restrict her going to her dad .
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #7 - January 26, 2014, 01:34 PM

    My intention was not to teach her about religion, but just introduce the fact that there are many different people who believe different things and that we can be whoever we want to be... I'll have to consult some books on the matter and ask around professionals before I take action.. but in the meantime, I'll try my hardest to just de-dramatize everything, live normally and have fun and show her that she and mommy can have a great and wonderfult time together and just be the mother I've always been... just a little better minus the depression.

    After yesterday, I will not let her go to her father and his mother again. It was horrible.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #8 - January 26, 2014, 01:37 PM

    By the way, as soon as we move into a bigger apartment and she has her own room, I promised her we''ll be getting us a cute Maine Coon Smiley


    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #9 - January 26, 2014, 02:24 PM

    I would recommend a book called The Magic of Reality by Richard Dawkins. It's aimed at older children but I think it would be beneficial for you to read it yourself. Also, get the illustrated version if you can, some lovely pictures in it by artist Dave McKean.

    It would probably be a little hard for a five year old to grasp but it's very easy for an adult, and will help teach her about science and facts about the universe as well as other religions. I cannot recommend strongly enough that you buy this book and read it, or see if it's stocked in a local library. Like, if you have the time, do it right now. Read it yourself first.

    You can also get it online. The artwork comes to life in the digital version of the book for the iPad. Thought bubbles pop up as Charles Darwin ponders evolution, and interactive portions allow readers to play with light beams, fire an enormous cannon to see the influence of gravity, and put elements under pressure to see how they change. It is one thing to see scientific concepts spelled out for you, but another to read the basic concepts and then play with those ideas virtually. Also gratifying was the simple fact that the text could flow by illustrations. Dawkins begins most chapters with supernatural stories once employed to explain such mundane things as why there should be a day and night. Here McKean transforms tidbits of religious tradition both familiar and obscure into fantastic visions of how our species used to explain the world (where do lamps and buses come from? Allah did it).

    What Dawkins wants to do is use questions that we are continually in awe of to highlight how a scientific way of thinking can actually allow us to approach answers to those mysteries. In our ignorance, we made stories about snakes in gardens, elephants on the backs of turtles, and the caprices of the gods to explain natural phenomena.

    This really is the perfect book for what you want.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #10 - January 26, 2014, 02:35 PM

    I agree that children should not be taught religious concepts before a certain age, if ever.
    My children ask me questions about God or Allah and I just tell them that some people believe this, some people believe that, and then I leave it up to them.
    When you are trying to "undo" brainwashing, you are, as Quod has mentioned, dealing with identity. What happens is you end up pulling too many things out with it at such a young age, like tangled skein of yarn, and it is very painful to a child. Try not to be negative, but inclusive. Add further practices in your daily life (music, painting nails, etc), while slowly cutting down on your Islamic ones. This is elimination, and it is less traumatic than suddenly changing everything.
    I would recommend you just be supportive, and do not introduce new belief concepts to her until her curiosity is piqued, indicating that she is receptive to them.
    Many of her questions are about reassurance, not belief or religion. She wants her mother back, you are not behaving consistently, in her mind, and she is in this new environment and lacking a key family figure. She is overwhelmed.
    When my children left, I told them long stories at bedtime, that I had made up, that dealt with the issues they had had during the day. Involving superheroes or the like. This helps them process and creates a safe space to question things. Every story I told them had to do with change.
    I would also recommend that you get her into counseling, as a sort of safety net, in case she is further affected, or you need papers for court on her father's competency as a parent. The sooner she establishes a relationship with a therapist, the sooner she has a safe space away from all the individuals who are involved in this storm of change, with a person removed from family drama who can help her with coping skills.
    You have done all the right things, just take it slow.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #11 - January 26, 2014, 02:46 PM

    You don't have to talk about it. Just put on the music dance. P.S. Don't tell daddy.

    I'm not a parent though.
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #12 - January 31, 2014, 01:46 AM

    You cant force them to be atheists. But you can encourage them to ask questions about the world. Whenever she asks you a question about anything, always praise her for asking questions: "That's a very good question!"

    Also when she brings up God / Allah you can challenge her by saying something like "Have you seen this Allah guy?, if you haven't then how do you know he exists?"

    When I was a little kid I remember asking my dad what happens when we die, he told me that nobody knows for sure because nobody has come back from death to tell us. I remember being very satisfied with hat answer, it made perfect sense.
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #13 - January 31, 2014, 03:06 PM

    I will throw in few suggestions for Cornflower:
    - Talk to your daughter about art and music in a manner she can understand.
    - Listen to music at home and talk to her about it.
    - Take her to some concert if possible and let her experience the joy.
    - Take her to museums and make remarks about the beautiful paintings, the sculptures etc.
    - Don't criticize her dad but tell her what is right and wrong.
    - She may be confused at first but she will figure out on her own as she grows.
    - Show her the tolerant accepting side of life.
    - Expose her to the beauty around you as much possible.
    - Kids like beautiful things.
    - Project happiness while listening to music. This will have positive impact on your daughter.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #14 - January 31, 2014, 04:23 PM

    Thank you both, this is exactly what I've done thus far and even before. Thank you all for the advice and suggestions you've given, especially the book "magic of reality". I am going to buy it actually and use it now and in the future. Things have escalated between the father, but I'm trying to hold things under control!

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #15 - January 31, 2014, 04:32 PM

    ......but I'm trying to hold things under control!

    under control!., Yap.,  That is the Key word., That is the key to live this life.,

    "Never get upset, never get angry  and hold things under CONTROL"

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #16 - February 01, 2014, 03:40 PM

    Dancing with her?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #17 - February 01, 2014, 05:36 PM

    Already doing it Smiley Dance, listen to music, sing together, do all the normal stuff you can imagine. I believe that the confusion comes from within because "Muslim" was an identity and now we have another identity she is not sure of. She just wants everything to be "normal". Yesterday my mom told me that the kiddo had told her "me and mom are not Muslim anymore", just out of the blue. She is a very bright child, but very introvert and doesn't always share her inner thoughts.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #18 - February 01, 2014, 05:45 PM

    Axline Dibs in Search of Self might be a useful resource to give you some ideas.  It will show you how to ask her things.

    I would suggest some child therapy, but I am not sure what I mean exists anymore, and in any case is there anyone experienced in understanding religion as a source of trauma apart from Winnell in California.

    Maybe we are about recreating new identities.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #19 - February 01, 2014, 05:48 PM

    Just read the intro on Amazon - it is beautiful and exactly what you need!  Smiley

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #20 - February 01, 2014, 10:00 PM

    Already doing it Smiley Dance, listen to music, sing together, do all the normal stuff you can imagine
    ...She is a very bright child, but very introvert and doesn't always share her inner thoughts. ....

    I guess that is Genetic train from Mom .. I can see from your posts that  you were also very introvert and bright when you were child Cornflower until you get upset and angry ....  lol..

    I am so glad to read that ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #21 - February 01, 2014, 10:22 PM

    LOL how did you know that about my temper Tongue

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #22 - February 02, 2014, 12:12 AM

    Thank you all for the advice and suggestions you've given, especially the book "magic of reality". I am going to buy it actually and use it now and in the future.


    You're welcome. Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #23 - March 04, 2014, 01:17 AM

    I'm so sorry to revive an old thread, but, Cornflower, your story reminded me of a similar one of my own. It is a bit long, but in case you're ever bored:

    One of my earliest memories as a kid (my memory is very poor so this was probably ~age 6 or 7) was when I was visiting my grandparents in Kentucky. You know, the good old American South, where not being Christian is as odd as not being from Earth. Especially back in the day.

    We were about to make the long drive home to CT. My grandmother was saying goodbye to us on the porch, zipping up our coats, kissing us goodbye, and for some reason I asked my grandmother if the baptist church down the road from their farm was the one that they go to on Sunday. My grandmother gently said, "Oh, sweetheart, I don't believe in God."

    I was incredulous. I never even realized that it was possible to not believe in God before that moment, and it was painful for some reason I couldn't identify to realize that my grandmother, a person that I loved dearly, did not believe in him. I repeated what she had said in disbelief, and she added, "But you can, if you want."

    As a child, that was a pretty sad memory. But when I got to around 13 or 14, and I started seeing the greater diversity of the world and noticing all the problems I had with Christianity, not only the theology but the followers, suddenly I thought back to that memory and, this time, I was impressed. I mean, here is a woman growing up in one of the most Christian areas you can ask for, and my grandmother has been alive for nearly 80 years. She was born to Christians, surrounded by Christians, but, from an early age, wasn't even having it. How cool is that?

    Nowadays, even though it didn't happen immediately, I still remember this and have immense respect for her, and a whole new appreciation for her situation. I recently--mere months ago--confided in her about my atheism. She is the only one in my family who knows. I told her about this memory, and she did not remember it, but she quickly apologized and said she should have kept it from me, that she didn't mean to hurt me, that she kept it from her children and her husband and that she didn't know why she said it to me that day. I quickly assured her that there was nothing to be sorry for.

    Today, I am so thankful for it, and I have such a deep understanding and connection with her now. It took me nearly two decades to figure it out, but today I understand not only her position, but I have grown to assume some of her loneliness and appreciate her immense frustration over the years. I will always be glad for her honesty. We spent hours that day speaking about religion, about the one time she tried to tell my grandfather she didn't believe in God, about how she secretly watches Bill Maher at night (and she advised me not to do so, though, because he swears, and she is sweet). She had no higher education, and knows little about science, so she asked me to explain a bunch of things, and I did to the extent of my abilities, and she just listened with a sense of vindication as I confirmed for her all these intricacies of nature that she never knew but always sensed and always felt.

    What I suppose I am getting at here is that I still remember being at that age where I was confused, where I was afraid and saddened by the disbelief of a loved one, where I still thought I was going to Hell for lying to my little sister a few too many times, where my mother convinced me that, when I felt temptation, I should whisper "Satan, be gone" to myself like a psychopath (true story). Childhood is a confusing time, especially with religion. But I was fortunate enough to have fairly accepting parents, to have opportunities to see the broader side of the world. It was a long journey, and it took me through two religions, but I finally got to a place where my mind is free and I am happy.

    Your daughter is fortunate to have you on her side; while you cannot make conclusions for her, you can be an opposing force and a new source of inspiration to her as she matures. Encourage her to think, to open her mind, expose her to different ideas and books and be there to answer her questions along the way. Trust that she will, with your support, be able to form her own conclusions in her adulthood, and get to a place where she feels safe and comfortable. It is painful now for both of you, but it is not permanent.

    I am confident that, with a mother like you, there is no way that she will not grow to be an intelligent and thoughtful young woman, capable of formulating her own beliefs and living a life with little confusion or fear. It just takes time and patience, and a lot of support and encouragement. She will change and grow, and her thoughts will mature. And perhaps one day she will also feel even closer to you by the sudden understanding of your position, your perspective, and how you have suffered on her behalf.
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #24 - March 04, 2014, 04:29 AM

    I'm surprised when heard other states Muslims are forbidden to listen to music. I've got the kids all free to listen to their favorite songs. My little girl aged 9 years likes to listen to the songs Justin Bieber since she was 6 or 7 years old...

    A lot of weird things I've heard and wonder about the lives of Muslims in other countries.

    Can't listen to music. Women are not free dress up their favorite and other.. Huh?

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #25 - March 04, 2014, 07:56 PM

    I think the kiddo has come to terms with the fact that "we are not Muslims anymore". I don't even believe she had fully grasped the concept of god yet, I mean, she's barely 6. She saw "being Muslim" as an identity, not a belief in a deity. The fact that we only had other Muslim friends made this identity much more important than it is now, where we have zero contact with other Muslims. Anyway, don't know if I have mentioned this of the forum yet, but she was quite upset a week ago where she basically screamed out, without any prior argument (except that I complained that she had an unpleasant attitude the last week or so) "I'm angry because dad lied. He said we live twice, but we only have one life. Why did he lie, I am so angry he lied to me!". To that I answered that yes, we only have one life and we should make it count. Do the best we can to be good to ourselves and to others, but that other people believe differently. Daddy didn't lie, he just believes that in his heart. That doesn't make it true or false, but if he believes it we can't make him not believe it. People must have the freedom to believe and feel whatever they want, we don't want anyone to control what we believe or think. She was, I think, satisfied with that answer. She calmed down, seemed to be a lot more happier and haven't mentioned anything since then.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #26 - March 04, 2014, 07:59 PM

    Hey, that's awesome. I'm so glad for both of you. I can tell she's going to be a very bright individual. And thank God--we need many more of them!
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #27 - March 04, 2014, 08:14 PM

    I think the kiddo has come to terms with the fact that "we are not Muslims anymore". I don't even believe she had fully grasped the concept of god yet, I mean, she's barely 6. She saw "being Muslim" as an identity, not a belief in a deity. The fact that we only had other Muslim friends made this identity much more important than it is now, where we have zero contact with other Muslims. Anyway, don't know if I have mentioned this of the forum yet, but she was quite upset a week ago where she basically screamed out, without any prior argument (except that I complained that she had an unpleasant attitude the last week or so) "I'm angry because dad lied. He said we live twice, but we only have one life. Why did he lie, I am so angry he lied to me!". To that I answered that yes, we only have one life and we should make it count. Do the best we can to be good to ourselves and to others, but that other people believe differently. Daddy didn't lie, he just believes that in his heart. That doesn't make it true or false, but if he believes it we can't make him not believe it. People must have the freedom to believe and feel whatever they want, we don't want anyone to control what we believe or think. She was, I think, satisfied with that answer. She calmed down, seemed to be a lot more happier and haven't mentioned anything since then.

    In the Quran says.." "Our Lord, You made us lifeless twice and gave us life twice,.."

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #28 - March 04, 2014, 08:52 PM

    Hmm, a lie in the koran....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • My kid is confused
     Reply #29 - March 04, 2014, 09:10 PM

    In the Quran says.." "Our Lord, You made us lifeless twice and gave us life twice,.."

    ... and other stupid religious platitudes that appeal only to people who have turned off their brain.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »