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Theme Changer

 Topic: Religious clothing in schools

 (Read 23725 times)
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  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #30 - January 16, 2014, 12:54 AM
    Where do you find these things? Yeezevee, just genius. I never have seen like this before.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #31 - January 16, 2014, 02:15 AM
    Quote from: three on January 16, 2014, 12:54 AM
    Where do you find these things? Yeezevee, just genius. I never have seen like this before.

    Hi three., I have literally 1000 or more books on anti-Islam and Pro-Islam along with 100s of videos on a hard disk  Cheesy  ., anyway going back to that stupid burqa/niqab..  This damn  mobile jail is  invented by Muslim ROBOTS after the death of alleged Prophet  of  Islam.  You will not find this  burqa/niqab jail code for women in Quran.  What kind of sick man will keep a person he loves in a walking jail? Stupid people...

    what all Quran says about this women dress code is this..

    Quote
    024.031:  And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

    033.059  O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    007.026:  O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.

    that is all what Quran says.. and here and there it talks about veil
    Quote
    007.046  And between the two there shall be a veil, and on the most elevated places there shall be men who know all by their marks, and they shall call out to the dwellers of the garden: Peace be on you; they shall not have yet entered it, though they hope.

    but that is nothing to do with Niqab/jail/walking tent that Muslim women are forced/brain washed by these stupid baboons that preach in mosques and fools that listen to these baboons

    ................................................

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeD-ve5Q-oM
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #32 - January 16, 2014, 02:41 AM
    Yeezevee, my friend, you have to say "Warning: Possible Trigger" before you throw up casual violence like that. Please. Some of us cannot tolerate it easily, it is too familiar, or vice versa, some of us are trying to make it less familiar, and get over a desensitization to violence. Some of us, it is both.
    Too sad, too familiar.
    What choice does one have? None, really.

    I knew a woman, whose family had been at the Afghani court, years and years ago. Maybe in the last century. I met her more than a dozen years ago, she was in her seventies. She told me this story, that her father, the court's scribe, had told her: The king of Afghanistan had been out and about that day, and had smelled a wonderful and irresistible perfume on a woman who was completely covered, as in this last video. He had her brought before him, to be proposed marriage to, which, as you know, is formal enough to require that her face be seen. When the veil was lifted, it was found she was a very old woman. The king was so embarrassed, he made the full burqa illegal, that day.
    I do not know if this is true. This is the story I was told. 

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #33 - January 16, 2014, 02:48 AM
    Quote from: three on January 16, 2014, 02:41 AM
    Yeezevee, my friend, you have to say "Warning: Possible Trigger" before you throw up casual violence like that. Please. Some of us cannot tolerate it easily, ......................

    you have a point there "three"  let me delete that..
    Quote
    The king of Afghanistan had been out and about that day, and had smelled a wonderful and irresistible perfume on a woman who was completely covered,

    not sure where you got that story but these are pictures of Afghan women folks in 1940s. and 50s..



    and this is now..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #34 - January 16, 2014, 02:56 AM
    Na, na, do not delete. Just put up a little warning. It is like that, to my personal understanding. Why delete what is accurate? Let people see, Yeezevee. Let them see, if they want to see how it is, just warn, first.

    Just in case you do not put it up, I will say, for those confused, that Yeezevee had a video of a woman being slapped about for not having her niqaab on. She put it on.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #35 - January 16, 2014, 03:00 AM
    Quote from: three on January 16, 2014, 02:41 AM
    I knew a woman, whose family had been at the Afghani court, years and years ago. Maybe in the last century. I met her more than a dozen years ago, she was in her seventies. She told me this story, that her father, the court's scribe, had told her: The king of Afghanistan had been out and about that day, and had smelled a wonderful and irresistible perfume on a woman who was completely covered, as in this last video. He had her brought before him, to be proposed marriage to, which, as you know, is formal enough to require that her face be seen. When the veil was lifted, it was found she was a very old woman. The king was so embarrassed, he made the full burqa illegal, that day.
    I do not know if this is true. This is the story I was told. 


     Cheesy Poor woman.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #36 - January 16, 2014, 03:03 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on January 16, 2014, 02:48 AM
    you have a point there "three"  let me delete that.. not sure where you got that story but these are pictures of Afghan women folks in 1940s. and 50s..

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    and this is now..

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Yes, I know it was like that then. But this was before that time. Probably in the century before. Because this woman, in her seventies, when I knew her, was not yet born when her father was scribe.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #37 - January 16, 2014, 03:10 AM
    I'm not against religious garbs in school, but then again I don't live in an area where school uniforms or strict dress codes abound, and I'm against such things. 
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #38 - April 09, 2014, 07:58 PM
    I seem to remember watching a news report of Shabina Begum's court victory case.

    She was standing on the steps outside the court and was happy with her victory while the TV cameras were focused on her as she gave a speech, and it closed with the phrase that went something like ..."and my right to express my identity and individuality..."

    The camera then panned back, to reveal all her female supporters all standing around her, and all wearing EXACTLY the same shapeless dark cloth.

    I cant find the clip and I could be wrong (my memory  Roll Eyes) but that image seems to have stuck with me.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #39 - April 09, 2014, 08:09 PM
    I am looking forward to the day when the first Jedi claims his/her rights to wear a full brown sackcloth robe with hood.

    er...... like this guy!

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/18/jedi-religion-tesco-hood-jones

    Tesco even tried a theological argument saying it was not a requirement of Jedi-ism:

    "But the grocery empire struck back, claiming that the three best known Jedi Knights in the Star Wars movies – Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker – all appeared in public without their hoods."


    Seriously, though a case like this could end up with a type of self-affirming voluntary segregation in schools, especially in certain areas of the UK. Christian pupils could all go round with huge crosses round their necks, Muslims all with beards and niqabs, Jews with wide-brimmed hats and ringlets, and so on.

    OK I admit I am scaremongering and taking this to it's highly unlikely logical conclusion, but its not the kind of ethos that schools should be encouraging. Waddya all reckon?
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #40 - April 09, 2014, 08:32 PM
    There is nothing "individual" or "identity"-related with a niqab. An identity shows who you are, what kind of unique person you are. The niqab's first and foremost purpose is to strip away a woman from her individuality and her identity. You become a moving "female object". That's it. Perhaps these delusional women feel like this is their individual identity, and they may feel somewhat "unique", but that is because they are a very small minority. If they would have lived in a country or society where most women cover up completely (like Afghanistan, or Saudi), they would become painfully aware of how invisible and almost non-existent they really are covering the most basic feature of a human being; the face.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #41 - April 09, 2014, 10:20 PM
    Yup. Whenever I see a woman in niqab she always looks like the ghost of a woman.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #42 - April 14, 2014, 09:55 PM
    Interesting point about indivuality.
    When I lived in Indonesia it was very much optional to wear hijab when not at the mosque, reading the Qu'ran or praying. So there were a number of women who did and and most who did not for every day attire. When I wanted to conceal who I was (the blonde, blue eyed girl) though not Muslim would wear hijab so I wasn't seen as that individual.
    Hummm...could be a point there.
    I however would not argue that Muslim women who want to for whatever reason wear hijab. Niqab or whatever form of shapeless garment be prohibited from wearing them. If in fact the concern is for the woman's self-esteem there are numerous places that assistance could be offered that would not be perceived as an assualt on her virtue.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #43 - April 14, 2014, 10:11 PM
    (My phone wouldn't let me write anymore in the last space)
    But perhaps as important is if the women don't feel they they have much choice over what they get to wear laws that would attempt to force them not to wear it may do grearter harm then good.
    Just a thought.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #44 - April 14, 2014, 10:28 PM
    In principle, I don't think that state should decide how a person should dress. Yes, we do have some fundamental laws against being naked in public spaces, and some would want to take it to its other end and ban the niqab due to safety reasons. I do see that there's a valid point there, but it's a complex question. However, I do believe that children should not be allowed to wear the hijab. In Sweden, there has been some proposals to ban the hijab for girls under the age of 15 (the age when they finish elementary school and go on to high school). I think that would be a good idea for a number of reasons. Niqab should be completely banned for everyone under the age of 18.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #45 - April 15, 2014, 04:44 AM
    Are there not religious reasons some might want to wear hijab, niqab or burkah at a younger age then 15? Perhaps the age they begin menstruation which could be some what younger?
    The thing I see as a problem is once the government can make laws about how a person believes or thinks we have entered a dangerous zone.
    Yes there needs to be laws against kidnapping and sacrificing your neighbors on the far extreme. Yes there needs to be laws that allow for clearly identifying people. Which would be a concern with some styles of dress.
    Why would 15 or completing elementary school be the magic age when hijab is suddenly okay?
    If the law was to disallow skinny jeans until age 15? Or eye make up? Or shoes with a heal? Would you feel the same way?
    Perhaps not.
    Perhaps you would not think those were things that didn't need to be governed by law but by personal or family choice.
    How much really do you want the government telling you what ÿour personal choices should be.çv7



    .
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #46 - April 15, 2014, 07:56 AM
    Well children dont have to wear hijab anyway so i think it should be banned in primary school to teach muslim parents their own religion  : (   the ban could be lifted in the final year of primary as some kids start menstruation around 10.. In high school i think girls should have the option to wear the head scarf if they want to but not be allowed to wear a jilbab, it is a health hazard for kids running up and down stairs, ive fell down and up the stairs many a time lol,  they can just customize their uniform to suit islamic ruling on dress which is baggy, non transparent, although where i live the uniform is a short skirt that rests on the butt cheeks lol not sure how they could customize that.. And i think niqab should be banned in all education establishments until 18 also, the decision to wear that should be left for adults not children.   
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #47 - April 15, 2014, 08:04 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on January 15, 2014, 06:21 PM
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    There could be any number of zombies hiding under there!
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #48 - April 15, 2014, 08:20 AM
    I don't think we should take girls starting menstruating into consideration. Childhood should be free from indoctrination and forced religious beliefs from their parents. By not allowing the hijab until the girl is old enough to speak up with her own voice, the chances that those forced to wear it will have strength enough to withstand the pressure is greater. Since school is mandatory untill 9th grade, parents cannot keep them at home. My estimations are that around 80 % of girls in school would've chosen not to wear it if they had the choice. While Muslim, we often discussed this "problem".

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #49 - April 15, 2014, 11:13 AM
    80% of your Muslim high school associates would have chosen not to wear hijab?
    That is according to your conversations about the "problem". Well how many of you actually took your hijab off while at school?
    80%? 74%? 62%? 57%? 33%? 28%? 10%?
    Teenagers don't now and have never needed a law imposed from the government to help then disobey their parents. It is in fact part of their development to push against rules and regulations set on them by family and or society. So...it would be rather poor judgement to take to greatly under consideration the activities and opinions of teenagers when making laws the effect very basic freedoms.
    There should no more be laws banning hijab then there should be a law requiring everyone to wear hijab.
    Forced indoctrination is an interesting concept. People are always learning something. From a very small child we are all learning. It could be said "being indoctrinated". In fact like it or not a great many ideas are"forced" on us just because we coke in contract with other people and cultures. What we do with those ideas, how we act on them and come to terms with them compared ideas and standards we've made our own reveals the types person we are.
    I find it interesting that you are not concerned with menstruation as an issue with the hijab or not conversation. Perhaps not all Muslim are taught the same that covering up should start when menstruation starts and that you might prevent some young lady from doing what she wants to do by have a law that selects some older age. Undoubtedly it has to do with your personal experience
    At this point I think national or state laws banning religious clothing even for children is a slippery down hill slope to lose other freedoms for everyone and for prejudice to take root and become a menace.
    ln cases where the girl or young lady is endanger there are better ways to help the banning hijab.l







    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #50 - April 15, 2014, 11:18 AM
    yeah i kind of take back a lot of what i said too, its such a tricky subject, even if the gov banned hijab in school and it altered muslim womens view on dress etc it doesnt prevent a woman being forced to wear it through marriage or adulthood either... 
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #51 - April 15, 2014, 11:40 AM
    Quote from: Lynna on April 15, 2014, 11:13 AM
    80% of your Muslim high school associates would have chosen not to wear hijab?
    That is according to your conversations about the "problem". Well how many of you actually took your hijab off while at school?
    80%? 74%? 62%? 57%? 33%? 28%? 10%?
    Teenagers don't now and have never needed a law imposed from the government to help then disobey their parents.
    The idea of forced indoctrination is an interesting concept.
    Who does and should have the right to teach children values, believes and practices that make communities?
    Do you want the government teaching your child values believes and practices that are normally
    thought of as highly personal and fundamental to individual freedom?
    Insured sure would not be willing to give that up to a governmental agency.


    I didn't speak about high school students, I was talking about children from the age between 6-7 year old (around the time a lot of Muslim parents enforce the hijab on their children) up till 15 year old. This is when the child graduates from elementary school which in Sweden is mandatory. A parent who does not make sure that the child attends elementary school and graduates, can loose custody of the child and it will be put in the care of social services.

    I think that parents should have the right to teach their children the values, beliefs and practices they feel are right. However, the right of the child is often forgotten in this discussion. It is not only the parents who have the right, but the child has the right to be able to grow and make up their own mind and opinions about right and wrong. The hijab is a highly sexualizing garment, it is inherently sexist and misogynist. From my own observation, majority of the children in the age range I mentioned (especially the younger they are) would rather not wear it.

    First of all, they do not understand what it stands for but only do as their are told by their parents. Secondly, the hijab limits the mobility of the person wearing it. All of a sudden the child cannot go to the beach or attend swimming lessons (perhaps if the parents allow the child to wear a "burkini"), the child cannot attend gymnastic lessons on the same level as other peers who do not need to wear extra cloth on their bodies and head. There are so many ramifications that affect the child, and the child's standard of living will not be the same as its peers because of this religious cloth that the child shouldn't wear in the first place because it is something that is supposed to de-sexualize a grown woman.

    And to say that teenagers or children do not need a "law" to disobey their parents is a very simplistic, and in all honesty naive, attitude. You are brushing off religious indoctrination and honor culture as if it was easy peasy to just not conform to the expectations mainly girls have on them. Cultural relativism, which is often used in these discussions, is one of the greatest threats to gender equality and freedom for all people irregardless of their gender, ethnicity of social class.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #52 - April 15, 2014, 12:38 PM
    You would suit being a public speaker or rights activist cornflower  :  )

    my own opinion after giving it a little thought,  i think children should be given the choice and guidance (while at school) to make a decision on whether to wear it or not regardless of the parents wishes, (which is what they do anyway) and if the parents make a scene a law could be created in favour of the school and child..   I don't really see any solution with regards to law making, other than to take on the mammoth task of reforming islam  Huh?  Huh?  Huh?
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #53 - April 15, 2014, 01:48 PM
    Brush off religious indoctrination?

    Perhaps you should take a closer look at how bond and determined you are to secularly indoctrinate this group of school children your talking about.

    You thinking that going to the beach to swim or doing gymnastics is more important then a parents right to raise their child the way they see fit does not make it so.

    In the exact area where I live there is only one Muslim family. The wife wears hijab. However the two little girls dress as ...gee...what can I say here...skinny jeans, cropped tops, short skirts, almost sleazy. Even when I go to the city where there a a few Muslims out and about it's often about the same picture. So much so that I've found myself wonder how will they go from what they are wearing to covering up wearing baggy clothes. That however is the parents problem, responsibility and right to do the very best thing they know how to do for their child. The child when they are able  to take care of their self then they are responsible for tvheir own clhoices.

    What is it you would allow the school to teach your child take was in direct opposition to what held as correct?

    Perhaps you don't feel strongly enough about anything to think it really matters.





    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #54 - April 15, 2014, 02:57 PM
    First of all Lynna, your example is irrellevant. If you're gonna criticize me, at least do it with sound arguments. Your own religious and ideological beliefs clearly stand out when you re-define human rights, in particular those pertaining to children, as "secular indoctrination". I care about the child's basic human rights far more than the parents right to instill religious indoctrination and their personal values, which do affect the child negatively.

    I do understand that you as a JW have a hard time understanding that there is something far more important than religion. Yes, I do believe that a child's right to free mobility, right to partake in everyday activities like its peers on the same condtions, and the right not to be forced into an inherently sexist and mysogynist practiceI is far more important than parents raising their children how they see "fit". It's because the child's interest exceeds that of the parent's. I do feel strongly about something, but it's not god and hellfire. I care about human rights, democracy and making this into a better world to live in.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Re: Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #55 - April 15, 2014, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on January 15, 2014, 06:21 PM
    (Clicky for piccy!)


    They look like an army of dementors. Really fucking scary.

    The state enforcing age restrictions on when a girl can wear a hijab is excessive and a bit absurd. Neo-nazis, Scientologists, anti-vaccination woos and all manner of kooks are free to raise their children as they see fit; I don’t see any justification for Muslims being singled out for this sort of thing nor do I see any justification for that degree of state encroachment. What would be the penalty for parents whose daughters wear hijabs? What if they refuse to remove them? What if young girls claim they chose to wear it? Would this apply to religious clothing donned by other religious groups?

    As someone who begrudgingly wore the hijab for several years (started at 5/6, ended at 18), it sucks but it’s not exactly what you’d call a traumatic experience. Even if a girl is forced in her early childhood, she can take it off once she’s older and move on with her life. Kids are often subjected to a lot of shitty rules their parents impose on them and the hijab doesn’t constitute enough of a violation or enough harm to a child to warrant that level of state encroachment. If children are being abused for not wearing the hijab, that should definitely be dealt with by the law (as should child abuse perpetrated for any other reason) but a blanket ban on the hijab is taking it too far.



  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #56 - April 15, 2014, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on April 15, 2014, 04:21 PM
    They look like an army of dementors. Really fucking scary.

    The state enforcing age restrictions on when a girl can wear a hijab is excessive and a bit absurd. Neo-nazis, Scientologists, anti-vaccination woos and all manner of kooks are free to raise their children as they see fit; I don’t see any justification for Muslims being singled out for this sort of thing nor do I see any justification for that degree of state encroachment. What would be the penalty for parents whose daughters wear hijabs? What if they refuse to remove them? What if young girls claim they chose to wear it? Would this apply to religious clothing donned by other religious groups?

    As someone who begrudgingly wore the hijab for several years (started at 5/6, ended at 18), it sucks but it’s not exactly what you’d call a traumatic experience. Even if a girl is forced in her early childhood, she can take it off once she’s older and move on with her life. Kids are often subjected to a lot of shitty rules their parents impose on them and the hijab doesn’t constitute enough of a violation or enough harm to a child to warrant that level of state encroachment. If children are being abused for not wearing the hijab, that should definitely be dealt with by the law (as should child abuse perpetrated for any other reason) but a blanket ban on the hijab is taking it too far.






    What about if this clothing causes rickets or in pregnant women causes vitamin D deficiencies to the unborn child? Who's right comes first? Rickets and vitamin deficiencies are extremely important things to prevent otherwise life quality is severely impacted.
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #57 - April 15, 2014, 08:08 PM
    No, no, don't you know that a child's vitamin D intake doesn't matter because what matters most is that the parents can indoctrinate the child with whatever they want as long as it's about religion. It doesn't matter that the child's (finer) motor skills are impaired because the child's mobility is restricted and it can not partake in normal day to day activity as it did before having to cover up both body and hair. I mean, any other type of neglect or harm caused on the child would end up bringing social services in to the picture but since it's religious we have to stay quiet. Roll Eyes


    By the way, where does it stop? The neighbors I had who made their 8 year old to wear the niqab, do they also have the right to do so? Nobody cares about the children. Typical for religious people.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #58 - April 15, 2014, 08:12 PM
    Also, what about the brain damage? I mean if you bring kids up to stop thinking whenever they run into anything not covered by dogma, this aint good.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Religious clothing in schools
     Reply #59 - April 15, 2014, 08:28 PM
    Gosh looking at those picture Yeezeze posted puts everything into perspective, i am often guilty of forgetting that i am in the western world where hijabi not common dress, seeing women in hijab together like those pictures in other countries, i find it quite horrific.. We can romanticize the meaning of hijab so easily in the west that it sickens me very much...  my views on hijab in school were based on western world.
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