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 Topic: What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?

 (Read 6609 times)
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  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #30 - December 22, 2013, 10:04 PM

    Thanks Lynna.  I'll be honest, I'm pretty clueless about a lot of stuff.  Among the Muslims in my life I've not heard anything good said about Israel.  It's always been bad mouthing, but I've always tried to avoid getting involved in any debate.  I've never been confident debating.  I'm of a white background myself but I've not really had much exposure to anything other than the Islam my parents brought me up with.

    Also, it's Safi, not Sufi grin12
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #31 - December 23, 2013, 01:10 AM

    @Ram,
    ahhhhh ok. I'm sorry for mistaking what you said. I still think its not as simple to say arab countries hate secularism, but I'll say that yes, nowadays being a non-believer is harder in those countries.

    Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority will believe you.

    Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure.
    - George Carlin
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #32 - December 23, 2013, 01:43 AM

    Quote
    So are you against Israel because it can't solve every problem confronting it?
    Would that mean that any government should have to be able to resolve any issue to continue existing?
    If that is the standard ever government currently in existence would be scheduled to be desolved.
    Sudan has had a few civil wars in the last several  decades and "droves" of it's citizens requesting asylum in other nations. Should it not be a fault of Sudan not of the nations that refuse these refugees.


    Yeah but most of Israel's issues with racism and discrimination are of its own making, much of them being institutional.  In the end, Israel's enablers are more at fault.  The US basically treats Israel like a welfare case and enables its incredibly bad behavior, so that's a major impediment to any change.

    And it's not like racism is only promoted by a few crazies in Israel, for example the race riots I bring up had the support of members of parliament and the government itself has been abusing and deporting refugees in mass.  Racism is much more broadly accepted in Israel than say in Europe or North America.  Imagine if the US did the same?  Indeed, when Arizona passed restrictive anti-immigration laws, the whole world went into a shitstorm.

    Edit: I just noticed this:

    Quote
    Hamas is essentially the lesser of two evils in the scenario. It should also be noted that Israel first supported Ahmed Yassin when the Israelis had problems with the PLO.


    This actually is true: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847  Israel actually encouraged fundamentalist Islamic movements in Palestine to siphon off support for the secular leftist PLO.  They actually thought they'd just attack secular Palestinians and never turn their guns on Israel.  Same thing with the US supporting the Mujaheddin and other such groups in Afghanistan and elsewhere to fight secular governments and movements, which is now biting us in the ass.
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #33 - December 23, 2013, 05:26 AM

    @ Safi
    Sorry for the Sufi. I'm on my mobile device  since we had an ice storm and my internet is down. The writing is kind of small. Well it wasn't much of an ice storm more like a lite rain at 30 degrees Fahrenheit.
    One of the good things about "debates" here  for the most part and with most people you can choose your level. Just like you did. Just said that's all you'd experienced.  It's a good way to find out things you might not have encountered otherwise.
    I'll pay attention to the guys talking political stuff but won't really get involved. I'm not politically active. I'm more interested in personal interaction and opinions. So if some one trys to corner me on a political point of view I'll just not have one.
    It's as easy as that no one is going to kill you for what you think. 

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #34 - December 23, 2013, 06:04 PM

    I don't support conflicts.
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #35 - December 24, 2013, 02:20 AM

    and an army of therapists

    Aww hell no, that'll just make it worse. They'll be rolled back to a point where their cosmic sugardaddy promised them a pony and they never got it. The Jews will discover they have deep abandonment issues and the Muslims will realise they have a massive persecution complex and nobody likes them (mainly because of the persecution complex), and both will realise they project upon the people they oppress to be the cause of their oppression. All of the historical baggage will be brought up to the surface again, both will be like "so... he started it!" and since that's the root cause of the conflict to begin with, the conflict will just re-manifest as new, continuing the endless fractal battle of blame and payback.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?a
     Reply #36 - December 24, 2013, 07:50 AM

    Hummm....
    I thought I wrote a reply to EzraJT about Arizona's restrictive immigration laws. Oh well must of fallen asleep and deleted it enstead.

    I don't remember the whole world having a "shitstorm" about Arizona's immigration laws. I don't why see why they would those state laws were just like the federal laws that already were in place.  It was only an issue of who would enforce them.  Anyhow it isn't a racist issue. It's a matter of someone from entered a country illegally is a crime. 
    It would be really nice if the world was such a place that there was equal sharing of resources so it wasn't a problem for one country to take on the poverty and crime elements from another country. However that is not the case so each sovereign nation should have the right to choose who they want to immigrate to their country.


    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #37 - December 24, 2013, 03:24 PM

    Quote
    I don't remember the whole world having a "shitstorm" about Arizona's immigration laws. I don't why see why they would those state laws were just like the federal laws that already were in place.  It was only an issue of who would enforce them.  Anyhow it isn't a racist issue. It's a matter of someone from entered a country illegally is a crime.  


    Well, I do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070  

    http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/07/23/176179/sb1070-declaration/

    When you have entire nations condemning a regional law, I think that classifies as a "shitstorm".   What your personal opinion is on such a law is irrelevant though to my point, which is Israel has far more institutionally racist policies, yet they don't nearly get as much condemnation.  That's all.  Whether you agree with such policies is up to you.  I personally don't, and don't like subsidizing such policies.

    I will also add the bill in question was not reflective of federal laws, hence the controversy and the debate on whether the federal government should forcibly rescind the law.  

    Quote
    It would be really nice if the world was such a place that there was equal sharing of resources so it wasn't a problem for one country to take on the poverty and crime elements from another country. However that is not the case so each sovereign nation should have the right to choose who they want to immigrate to their country.


    Well, assuming you are even correct, US policies toward Mexico have driven massive immigration from Mexico to the US, illegal and legal, so you'd have to address that first before screaming about sovereignty.  Kind of like how Israel needs to address its issues with its occupied territories and other policies before it can have the moral high ground and talk about security and peace.

    Anyway, I'm not really looking into turning this thread into a debate on Arizona's now largely defunct law, let's keep on topic.  You can PM me if you want about this, but I don't want to go off topic on this thread.
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #38 - December 24, 2013, 04:53 PM

    Well, I do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070  

    http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/07/23/176179/sb1070-declaration/

    When you have entire nations condemning a regional law, I think that classifies as a "shitstorm".   What your personal opinion is on such a law is irrelevant though to my point, which is Israel has far more institutionally racist policies, ...

    I will also add the bill in question was not reflective of federal laws, hence the controversy and the debate on whether the federal government should forcibly rescind the law.  

    Well, assuming you are even correct, US policies toward Mexico have driven massive immigration from Mexico to the US, illegal and legal, so you'd have to address that first before screaming about sovereignty.  Kind of like how Israel needs to address its issues with its occupied territories and other policies before it can have the moral high ground and talk about security and peace.

    Anyway, I'm not really looking into turning this thread into a debate on Arizona's now largely defunct law, let's keep on topic.  You can PM me if you want about this, but I don't want to go off topic on this thread.


    Did you read the two articles you posted?

    I spent half my childhood in a country in which I wasn't a citizen. My siblings and I wore essentially dog tags at all times. My step father kept in his possession the families legal paperwork that was standard. When I was in my late teens and we traveled in other counrties I carried my own passport and visa if needed. That is standard practice. I was asked it from time to time just driving down the road at road block check point. No big problem.

    You however didn't provide any evidence of Israel's racist policies.
    It isn't a matter of moral high ground every country in the world has immigration laws. Every country has laws that govern who can come to reside within their borders. If you don't qualify because you don't have the job skills, educational level, financial resource. Then you don't qualify becase of that not because your some certain ethnic group. If your applying for citizenship to a country and your involved with organizations that support the down fall of that government they are under no obligation to allow to reside there legally. Without a doubt there would be no obligation for illegal residence. If a country doesn't have the resources to support refugees and / or illegal residents the country has every right to send them back to their own country to handle the burden.

    So show evidence of Israel's racist policies. So we can see if they are truly any different then any other country in similar circumstances.

    In all fairness I'll say my personal opinion is that the refugee and persons seeking asylum from tyrannical governments is really a world problem but that's not this topic.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #39 - December 24, 2013, 05:08 PM

    Quote
    Did you read the two articles you posted?


    I did, yes.  What do you need cleared up?

    Quote
    You however didn't proved any evidence of Israel's racist policies.  So show evidence of Israel's racist policies. So we can see if they are truly any different then any other country in similar circumstances.


    I never claimed to offer any proof of this, I was in fact answering your post about Arizona.  But since we're back on topic, someone in the thread already demonstrated evidence for this claim, but if you need more, just read the US State Department's own claims on the issue: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/humanrightsreport/index.htm?year=2012&dlid=204363#wrapper

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel

    "According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."[8] The 2005 US Department of State report on Israel wrote: "[T]he government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including... institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens."[9] The 2010 U.S. State Department Country Report stated that Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and that government effectively enforced these prohibitions.[10] Former Likud MK and Minister of Defense Moshe Arens has criticized the treatment of minorities in Israel, saying that they did not bear the full obligation of Israeli citizenship, nor were they extended the full privileges of citizenship.[11]"

    http://www.amnestyusa.org/annualreport.php?id=ar&yr=2010&c=ISR

    Quote
    It isn't a matter of moral high ground every country in the world has immigration laws. Every country has laws that govern who can come to reside within their borders. If you don't qualify because you don't have the job skills, educational level, financial resource. Then you don't qualify becase of that not because your some certain ethnic group. If your applying for citizenship to a country and your involved with organizations that support the down fall of that government they are under no obligation to allow to reside there legally. Without a doubt there would be no obligation for illegal residence. If a country doesn't have the resources to support refugees and / or illegal residents the country has every right to send them back to their own country to handle the burden.


    You can't cause the conditions that lead to mass immigration and then hide behind claims of sovereignty and economic well-being, now can you?  As an American I find such a stance very hypocritical and cowardly.  Out of curiosity, do you know why the US has faced massive immigration from Mexico in the past 20 years?

    Anyway, the controversy actually had more to do with the fact that Arizona has a large population of Hispanics among its citizenry who would have been under constant suspicion and been able to be harassed and detained due to their ethnicity.  This is why the Supreme Court gutted the law. 

    Quote
    I spent half my childhood in a country in which I wasn't a citizen. My siblings and I wore essentially dog tags at all times. My step father kept in his possession the families legal paperwork that was standard. When I was in my late teens and we traveled in other counrties I carried my own passport and visa if needed. That is standard practice. I was asked it from time to time just driving down the road at road block check point. No big problem.


    Where are you from?
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #40 - December 25, 2013, 09:27 AM

    Quote from: EzraJT link=topic=25461.msg725729#msg725729
    But since we're back on topic, someone in the thread already demonstrated evidence for this claim, but if you need more, just read the US State Department's own claims on the issue: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/humanrightsreport/index.htm?year=2012&dlid=204363#wrapper


    This article doesn't support  your claim that there is governmental and agencies supporting the poor treatment of minorities and illegal immigrants and residents. This article shows that although there is room for improvement (like every other country in the world) there are laws in place to protect at risk peoples.

    Quote from: EzraJT


    Didn't read this wikipedia article yet.

    Quote from: EzraJT
    "According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."[8] The 2005 US Department of State report on Israel wrote: "[T]he government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including... institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens."


    So from 2004 to 2005  there wasn't a lot of progress in improvements for Arab citizens. Well that is nearly 10 year old information. And fails to address what else may have been going on at the time. However no gross violations are noted.

    Quote from: EzraJT

    [9] The 2010 U.S. State Department Country Report stated that Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and that government effectively enforced these prohibitions.


    So what do we have here. In 2010 the report stating that the Israeli government EFFECTIVELY EFORCED THESE PROHIBITIONS i.e. discrimination on the bases of race.

    Quote from: EzraJT
    [10] Former Likud MK and Minister of Defense Moshe Arens has criticized the treatment of minorities in Israel, saying that they did not bear the full obligation of Israeli citizenship, nor were they extended the full privileges of citizenship.[11]"


    Now here an interesting problem. Minorities not bearing the full obligation of citizens of Israel. This really needs to be looked at in the clear light of day so to speak. If this is only a perceived problem then education is needed to show the value of the minorities. If however there is an exceptionally large influx of very needy people from somewhere. What makes that Israel's responsibility.  Why not Egypt or Saudi Arabia or South Africa or Nigeria. Anyhow any nation that has a disproportionately large population of citizen unable to contribute to the well being selves let allow help the over all economy of the nation will likely enter down hill trend. Those on a small world this is a problem that just can't be thrown at some other government. I. E. refugees and asylum seekers need help but the blame for the problems they are having should be squarely placed on the countries they are fleeing.

    Quote from: EzraJT
    You can't cause the conditions that lead to mass immigration and then hide behind claims of sovereignty and economic well-being, now can you?  As an American I find such a stance very hypocritical and cowardly.  Out of curiosity, do you know why the US has faced massive immigration from Mexico in the past 20 years?


    Per your request we're staying on topic. However it would be a total dodge to blame all Mexico's problems on the US.

    Quote from: EzraJT
    Anyway, the controversy actually had more to do with the fact that Arizona has a large population of Hispanics among its citizenry who would have been under constant suspicion and been able to be harassed and detained due to their ethnicity.  This is why the Supreme Court gutted the law. 


    Interesting I still get stopped at border check points on I-8 when driving through Arizona.
    My first memory of law enforcement I was a very small blonde haired blue eyed child being taken across the California Mexico border by my olive  complected, black-haired, brown eyed father. The border patrol agent wanted to know who the man I was with was.  When I answered my father he asked me "For how long?" You know know that's a trick question for a 6 year old.


    Quote from: EzraJT
    Where are you from?

    I was born a citizen of the USofA

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #41 - December 25, 2013, 04:28 PM

    Quote
    This article doesn't support  your claim that there is governmental and agencies supporting the poor treatment of minorities and illegal immigrants and residents. This article shows that although there is room for improvement (like every other country in the world) there are laws in place to protect at risk peoples.


    Did you actually read it?  I'm not trying to be condescending, but it is a long report, and you may have just breezed it.  Here's a few select quotes I'm referring to:

    “Resources devoted to Arabic education were inferior to those devoted to Hebrew education in the public education system.”
        “Approximately 93 percent of land was in the public domain, including approximately 12.5 percent owned by the NGO Jewish National Fund (JNF), whose statutes prohibit sale or lease of land to non-Jews.”
        “Approximately 60,000 Bedouin lived in at least 46 unrecognized tent or shack villages that did not have water and electricity and lacked educational, health, and welfare services.”
        “The law bars family reunification when a citizen’s spouse is a non-Jewish citizen of Iran, Iraq, Syria, or Lebanon. Citizens may apply for temporary visit permits for Palestinian male spouses 35 years old or older or Palestinian female spouses 25 years old or older, but may not receive residency based on their marriage and have no path to citizenship.”

        “excessive use of force against civilians, including killings; abuse of Palestinian detainees, particularly during arrest and interrogation; austere and overcrowded detention facilities; improper use of security detention procedures; demolition and confiscation of Palestinian property; limitations on freedom of expression, assembly, and association; and severe restrictions on Palestinians’ internal and external freedom of movement.”

    Mind you, I didn't originally read the whole report (I have now however) but first learned of it from here: http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ben-white/us-state-department-israel-practices-institutional-discrimination  Search for the quotes and references in the report yourself.

    The conclusions of the report are clear, this isn't about "protecting" people.

    Quote
    Didn't read this wikipedia article yet.

    So from 2004 to 2005  there wasn't a lot of progress in improvements for Arab citizens. Well that is nearly 10 year old information. And fails to address what else may have been going on at the time. However no gross violations are noted.


    Obviously not a lot has changed, given the most recent reports on the nation:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel#Reports_addressing_racism_in_Israel

    Quote
    So what do we have here. In 2010 the report stating that the Israeli government EFFECTIVELY EFORCED THESE PROHIBITIONS i.e. discrimination on the bases of race.


    You're quote mining from the same source that said in 2012 in regards to Israeli conduct:  "Human rights problems related to Israeli authorities included reports of excessive use of force against civilians, including killings; abuse of Palestinian detainees, particularly during arrest and interrogation; austere and overcrowded detention facilities; improper use of security detention procedures; demolition and confiscation of Palestinian property; limitations on freedom of expression, assembly, and association; and severe restrictions on Palestinians’ internal and external freedom of movement. The IDF maintained restrictions on movement into and out of the Gaza Strip and largely limited the travel of Palestinians out of Gaza to humanitarian cases, in addition to some business travelers.”

    Sure sounds like they're effectively enforcing it Tongue
    Quote
    Now here an interesting problem. Minorities not bearing the full obligation of citizens of Israel. This really needs to be looked at in the clear light of day so to speak. If this is only a perceived problem then education is needed to show the value of the minorities. If however there is an exceptionally large influx of very needy people from somewhere. What makes that Israel's responsibility.  Why not Egypt or Saudi Arabia or South Africa or Nigeria. Anyhow any nation that has a disproportionately large population of citizen unable to contribute to the well being selves let allow help the over all economy of the nation will likely enter down hill trend. Those on a small world this is a problem that just can't be thrown at some other government. I. E. refugees and asylum seekers need help but the blame for the problems they are having should be squarely placed on the countries they are fleeing.


    In other words, you acknowledge their racist behavior (after trying to tell me they're not racist) and say it's okay.  Um, then what's the argument about?

    Also we're discussing treatment of native people to the region, people born and raised there.  So I'm not sure why you're going on and on about immigrants in the country, which are primarily Jewish.  But since you bring it up, I did find this recent article:

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/racist-ringleaders-2013-israels-war-africans-intensifies/13023

    http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=767&Itemid=74&jumival=10892

    Yikes!  Give me Arizona compared to this any day...

    Quote
    Per your request we're staying on topic. However it would be a total dodge to blame all Mexico's problems on the US.


    It would be a total dodge, but I never made such a claim.  I said the massive influx of immigrants from Mexico in the past 20 years, which is the phenomenon you're commenting on here, was caused by US policies toward Mexico, which is an indisputable fact.  If we want to stop illegal immigration, we gotta stop raping their country.

    Anyway...

    Quote
    Interesting I still get stopped at border check points on I-8 when driving through Arizona.


    Well Arizona cops are hardcore fascists, but yeah the law in question was gutted: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/supreme-court-rules-on-arizona-immigration-law/2012/06/25/gJQA0Nrm1V_story.html?hpid=z1

    https://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/federal-court-deals-new-blow-arizonas-anti-immigrant-sb-1070

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/25/arizona-immigration-law-ruling_n_1614067.html

    Quote
    My first memory of law enforcement I was a very small blonde haired blue eyed child being taken across the California Mexico border by my olive  complected, black-haired, brown eyed father. The border patrol agent wanted to know who the man I was with was.  When I answered my father he asked me "For how long?" You know know that's a trick question for a 6 year old.


    Um...okay.

    Quote
    I was born a citizen of the USofA


    So you weren't a citizen of the US for half your life?
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #42 - December 26, 2013, 05:21 AM

    [
    Quote from: EzraJT
    Mind you, I didn't originally read the whole report

    So you weren't a citizen of the US for half your life?


    I'm pretty sure you didn't read the same article I read.

    No. I very clearly said I was born a citizen of the USofA. How you could have misunderstood that is a puzzle to me. Well perhaps not. (sigh) All the up roar about poor Barak Obama's birth certificate.  Foolish people don't realize upwards of 30,000 US citizens are born annually some place other then US soil. These birth just need to be registered because the children have US citizen parents. OMG how easy does it get.

    You however should probably stay with the why atheist can't convince theist. It seems on that topic it's jist fine to say random things

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • What do you all think about the israel-palestine conflict ?
     Reply #43 - December 26, 2013, 04:47 PM

    Quote
    I'm pretty sure you didn't read the same article I read.


    I did.  Did you go to the second page?  That may be a source of your confusion. 

    Quote
    No. I very clearly said I was born a citizen of the USofA. How you could have misunderstood that is a puzzle to me. Well perhaps not. (sigh) All the up roar about poor Barak Obama's birth certificate.  Foolish people don't realize upwards of 30,000 US citizens are born annually some place other then US soil. These birth just need to be registered because the children have US citizen parents. OMG how easy does it get.


    Well, remember, you said "I spent half my childhood in a country in which I wasn't a citizen. My siblings and I wore essentially dog tags at all times." and then said "I'm from the USA".  So you need to be more clear in your statements and not so vague.  Where exactly did you spend half of your childhood as a resident as opposed to citizen?  I can't read your mind, sorry. :/

    Quote
    You however should probably stay with the why atheist can't convince theist. It seems on that topic it's jist fine to say random things


    Um....okay.
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