Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Kashmir endgame
Today at 12:30 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Today at 12:25 PM

Scientists and .............
by akay
Today at 05:30 AM

Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 08:38 PM

Female role models
Yesterday at 03:56 PM

Zakir Naik..Islamic Hero ...
Yesterday at 12:51 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
August 18, 2019, 09:34 PM

The Battle for British Is...
August 18, 2019, 10:04 AM

hindus in India beat A M...
August 17, 2019, 01:23 PM

What music are you listen...
August 15, 2019, 09:05 PM

Human Rights and Wrongs
August 14, 2019, 04:47 PM

New PM incoming
August 13, 2019, 07:27 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?

 (Read 21188 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     OP - November 04, 2013, 07:58 PM




    The existence of violent Islamists has enabled many deeply reactionary Islamic preachers to claim the mantle of being "moderate" because they do not support jihadism. This means they can assert values that in any other context would be challenged by liberals and progressives as bigoted, intolerant, hateful and reactionary. But cultural relativism allows them to claim to be ‘moderate’ because, hey, as least they don’t say suicide-bombing bombing is halal.

    An example is Mufti Menk, who is something of a rock star among Islamic preachers. He has almost 200,000 followers on twitter, was trained as a cleric in Saudi Arabia and is based in Zimbabwe.

    One of his fans was Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, one of the Boston bombers, who re-tweeted some of the Mufti’s words of wisdom, much to his horror. Mufti Menk distanced himself from Tsarnaev, saying he was ‘shocked out of my skin’ and added,

    “I believe the perpetrators should be brought to justice, which is a common statement. We stand for peace, we stand for tolerance and promoting harmony and that went a long way in clearing my name.”
    link

    This month, Mufti Menk will be touring British Universities.



    But look closely at Menk’s opinions, and his declaration of believing in tolerance and harmony falls apart. Menk promotes hatred of gays and apologises for stoning, and yet in Britain, the promoter of such views can be hustled as a ‘moderate’ and perform a tour of University campuses, including the hallowed halls of Oxford.

    Menk says of gays:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWFLF-CY-Eg

    Indeed you are the people who have transgressed the limits of Allah....Allah speaks about how filthy this is.....so, with all due respect to the animals, they are worse than those animals. Remember, we are saying, with all due respect to the animals, because to the animals it is an insult to them to even suggest this to them. Automatically the pigs and the dogs do not engage in this (homosexuality)"

    And here is friendly, harmony and tolerance seeking Mufti Menk on stoning women to death:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v32v1A5xI74

    Now before we go into the punishment of Zina (fornication) there are two punishments. One is the stoning to death of the person who has been married in the past, or is correctly married and they commit zina, the sharia says such a person should be stoned to death. That is there. There is no doubt, there is no debate"

    So in the topsy-turvy place we are now in, a religious preacher who promotes the idea that stoning women to death is a good thing, and that gay people are ‘worse’ than animals, freely engages in a speaking tour of British Universities and wears the halo of the ‘moderate’ Muslim preacher with pride.

    Is it fear that prevents gay and female students from pointing out the bigotry and intolerance behind the moderate mask of Mufti Menk? Why do we accept the terms of dehumanisation of women and gays that is structurally embedded in the speech of this ‘moderate’ preacher?

    If a speaker who said Muslims were ‘worse’ than animals was invited to give speeches on university campuses would the National Union of Students allow it to go unnoticed?

    Either way, the time has come for all truly liberal, secular and progressive people in Britain to critically scrutinise religious preachers and activists and their rhetoric and beliefs without inhibition. We should no longer allow the dehumanisation of women, gays, ex-Muslims, secular Muslims and dissenters to be propagated from our University campuses by Islamic preachers out of fear or cultural relativism.
     
    Because if you compromise through association, assent, or support reactionaries who promote intolerance and hatred, whilst claiming to be promoting ‘tolerance’ and ‘harmony’ you debase yourself, and the values that are the very essence of the progressive movement – freedom of conscience, women’s rights, gay rights, anti-racism, are discarded cheaply. And if that happens, you have no values worth defending. You literally become worthless and value less.

    A failure to introspect and deal with this issue is a failure of moral conscience that threatens everyone. Because at some point the real question for the progressives will become, when did our silence become complicity with the hateful and reactionary?



  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #1 - November 04, 2013, 08:41 PM

    Why is there not a petition lobbying the universities to cancel the events? Best case scenario is that the unis do not know about or have not seen the above and would act.
    Worse case and more likely is they do know and so this needs to be publicised and the unis shamed and publicly acknowledging the homophobic poison they give platform to.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #2 - November 04, 2013, 09:20 PM

    Disgusting!   wacko

    I would not consider ANYONE who was trained in KSA and/or dresses like a Saudi preacher a "moderate".

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #3 - November 04, 2013, 11:29 PM

    Fittingly, he has a slight Afrikaner accent.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #4 - November 04, 2013, 11:43 PM

    His views are indeed obnoxious. But they're also slightly misrepresented in the write-up here (as opposed to the videos):

    Homosexuality - He makes a point of saying that he's specifically addressing Muslims, not the secular world. His main point is that the Koran is really clear that you can't practice gay sex and submit/claim to be a Muslim. Is he (theologically) wrong?

    Stoning women for fornication - He argues that this is ok because it's a punishment that it's impossible to invoke, as it requires four male witnesses of impeccable Muslim purity. He claims that it has never been carried out (unless by failing to observe this rule) and argues that it's there purely as a deterrent.
    While this seems faulty logic (if someone knows that a punishment is impossible to invoke, then it doesn't act as a deterrent), and of course, it would only feature in a primitive, brutal, misogynistic society, is he wrong in terms of his theology?

    In both cases he is, by any scale of compassion and humanity, on the side of brutality. But, stripping out the rhetoric, would most informed Muslims accept these points? (Genuine question.)  
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #5 - November 04, 2013, 11:58 PM

    Homosexuality - He makes a point of saying that he's specifically addressing Muslims, not the secular world. His main point is that the Koran is really clear that you can't practice gay sex and submit/claim to be a Muslim. Is he (theologically) wrong?

    A very selective interpretation, ignoring the comparison to animals in a derogatory form and ignoring several other clear statements of condemnation that do not specify Muslims.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #6 - November 05, 2013, 12:10 AM

    I hate to parrot right wing American neocon nutjobs and muslim preachers alike! But moderate islam is a misnomer...

    Indeed, there are disparate hermeneutical interpretations that one can adopt. But even the sufi who indulges in the occasional psychedelic and/or is chained to mystical praxis is unequivocally radical in his own right.
  • Re: Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #7 - November 05, 2013, 12:19 AM

    Homosexuality - He makes a point of saying that he's specifically addressing Muslims, not the secular world. His main point is that the Koran is really clear that you can't practice gay sex and submit/claim to be a Muslim. Is he (theologically) wrong?


    Absolutely, he is theologically correct unless one is totally mystical and has gotten their hands dirty with Ibn Arabi, Descartes, Hegel, Heidegger etc...

    In both cases he is, by any scale of compassion and humanity, on the side of brutality. But, stripping out the rhetoric, would most informed Muslims accept these points? (Genuine question.)  

    Yes. One need only examine the viewpoints of predominantly western educated islamic academics who hide behind a veneer of individualism to ascertain this very much to be the case. I'm thinking of people like Abdal Hakim Murad and Tariq Ramadan.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #8 - November 05, 2013, 01:19 AM

    I wouldn't describe most religious people as radical in any sense of the word.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #9 - November 05, 2013, 01:23 AM

    I wouldn't describe most religious people as radical in any sense of the word.


    Are we using radical as a pejorative here? I mean, by that logic, most contemporary Stalinists in Europe aren't radical...
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #10 - November 05, 2013, 01:26 AM

    I said in any sense of the word.

    Not sure how you're using it since you didn't specify.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #11 - November 05, 2013, 01:29 AM

    Right. Can you elucidate as to why you don't think religious people can't be considered radical in any sense of the word, incl. phenomenological?

    I am using radical inasmuch as it corresponds to solipsism/phenomenology, manifest physical action, and apathetic schadenfreude.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #12 - November 05, 2013, 01:44 AM

    Because to the average religious person, 'religion' is nothing more than lip service belief in a vague, woolly and underwhelming notion of god, no more intellectually robust than managing to repeat a few favourite verses and platitudes. And their religious practice is nothing more than social habit, often for the sake of keeping up appearances, not formed out of any thoughtful self-reflection or arrived at on any kind of existential journey. Involvement no more deep or spiritual than going to a backyard family barbecue. Certainly not a radical position or activity, whether by radical you mean extreme, excessive, zealous, deviant, unconventional, avant-garde, innovative, progressive, or groovy. It's really quite trite, shallow and commonplace.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #13 - November 05, 2013, 01:48 AM

    Well said, Miss.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #14 - November 05, 2013, 05:11 AM

    I think the real, and more grave problem is the fact that Islam, at least the Sunni version, is never held responsible for any of these views publicly. The only thing Mufti Menk is guilty of is being a good Muslim.
  • Re: Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #15 - November 05, 2013, 05:27 AM

    Because to the average religious person, 'religion' is nothing more than lip service belief in a vague, woolly and underwhelming notion of god, no more intellectually robust than managing to repeat a few favourite verses and platitudes. And their religious practice is nothing more than social habit, often for the sake of keeping up appearances, not formed out of any thoughtful self-reflection or arrived at on any kind of existential journey. Involvement no more deep or spiritual than going to a backyard family barbecue.


    A radical immanent becoming, then? Surely ignorance or conformity can be considered radical when defined against society or even the thinking Cartesian cogito. Islam is radical for the muslim not because it is one possible route to revolution or salvation, but because it is the sole route to revolution and salvation. Specificities are moot simply because the islam of the subject ideologically serves to mask the non-islam of the ummah.

    Certainly not a radical position or activity, whether by radical you mean extreme, excessive, zealous, deviant, unconventional, avant-garde, innovative, progressive, or groovy. It's really quite trite, shallow and commonplace.



    Ah, here is where we differ, I think. I don't perceive physical manifestation to be a product of individuation
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #16 - November 05, 2013, 12:14 PM

    Surely ignorance or conformity can be considered radical when defined against society or even the thinking Cartesian cogito.

    In what way can ignorance and conformity be considered radical? I'm still not clear what you're actually saying when you describe something as radical.

    Ah, here is where we differ, I think. I don't perceive physical manifestation to be a product of individuation

    It's trivially obvious to me that a person's manifest attitude, ideas, actions, and so on – their output into the universe  - can be a product of individuation. It's not a thing of category, but a thing of degree.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #17 - November 05, 2013, 12:59 PM

    In what way can ignorance and conformity be considered radical? I'm still not clear what you're actually saying when you describe something as radical.


    Immanent becoming. I stated this quite clearly...

    It's trivially obvious to me that a person's manifest attitude, ideas, actions, and so on – their output into the universe  - can be a product of individuation. It's not a thing of category, but a thing of degree.


    Socialised mode of production, no?
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #18 - November 05, 2013, 01:04 PM

    No.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #19 - November 05, 2013, 02:54 PM

    If you were truly moderate, you wouldn't advocate or even think of spewing hate and harsh penalties for something like adultery. Islam really poisons the minds of some people.

  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #20 - November 05, 2013, 03:21 PM

    If you were truly moderate, you wouldn't advocate or even think of spewing hate and harsh penalties for something like adultery..........

    good point Cocoon., but the question  is,  out of 1.5 billion Muslims folks what %  of people   really  advocate or even think of spewing hate and harsh penalties for something like adultery?

     And for those rascals and rogues  who  spew  hate and advocate  harsh penalties for something like adultery between the folks who love each other but not married this is a great exercise., They should be forced to do it 5 times a day...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #21 - November 05, 2013, 06:41 PM

    If God hates something or says something is wrong then to the follower it is completely moderate. Any topic a religion deals with clouds most followers judgement. The use of the ultimate authority as a basis of a view point becomes a mental straight jacket.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #22 - November 05, 2013, 07:18 PM

    Quote
    Because if you compromise through association, assent, or support reactionaries who promote intolerance and hatred, whilst claiming to be promoting ‘tolerance’ and ‘harmony’ you debase yourself, and the values that are the very essence of the progressive movement – freedom of conscience, women’s rights, gay rights, anti-racism, are discarded cheaply. And if that happens, you have no values worth defending. You literally become worthless and value less.

     

    This.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #23 - November 05, 2013, 08:06 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZckAY_YbDTc

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #24 - November 07, 2013, 05:07 PM


    Update: after this story was picked up on by LGBT newspaper Pink News, Mufti Menk has cancelled his tour to the UK

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/11/07/islamic-cleric-who-describes-gays-as-filthy-cancels-uk-tour/

  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #25 - November 07, 2013, 06:41 PM

    Quote
    On Wednesday, the University of Oxford and University of Glasgow told PinkNews that they were unaware of any invitation having been extended to Mufti Ismail Menk.

    A spokesman for the University of Glasgow said: “We would like to make clear that no official invitation was ever extended to Mufti Ismail Menk and that we will not be providing any facilities to him.”

    A spokesperson for the University of Oxford said: “The University of Oxford has not extended an official invitation to Mufti Ismail Menk, and we have so far been unable to confirm even whether such an event is actually scheduled to take place in Oxford.

    “The University of Oxford is committed to providing an inclusive environment in which equality is promoted, diversity is valued and the rights and dignity of all its staff and students are respected. Our Equality Policy explicitly states that no student or member of staff will be treated less favourably on the grounds of sexual orientation, and a range of support is available to LGBT staff and students.”

    PinkNews is awaiting a response from the Tayyibun Institute regarding its online flyer detailing visits allegedly due to be undertaken by Menk.


    And

    Quote
    The flyer, which has since been removed from the Tayyibun Institute’s website, had wrongly listed both institutions along with several others.

    On Thursday afternoon, the Institute said Menk’s tour had been “cancelled until further notice”.

    In a statement they said: “It is our duty to promote peace and tolerance, equality and justice, acknowledging the presence of the diverse faiths and inclinations in our midst. As we travel and develop we learn more about the cultures and ways of others and respect their right to follow what they wish to and vice versa.”


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #26 - November 08, 2013, 12:40 AM

    Update: after this story was picked up on by LGBT newspaper Pink News, Mufti Menk has cancelled his tour to the UK

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/11/07/islamic-cleric-who-describes-gays-as-filthy-cancels-uk-tour/

    Excellent news. This approach might really pay dividends. I assume CEMB is disseminating information to publications that might pick up on it and kick up a fuss.

    Shine a spotlight on people like Meneer Menk and the job's half done.
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #27 - November 08, 2013, 12:43 AM

     Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #28 - November 08, 2013, 02:21 AM

    The Independent newspaper also picked up on the story


    Quote
    A Muslim cleric who preaches that gay people are worse than animals is at the centre of a fierce “free speech” row after being invited to speak at universities across the country.

    Mufti Ismail Menk was due to visit six universities – Oxford, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Cardiff and Glasgow – next week. But the speaking tour was cancelled after student unions and university officials expressed concern about his views.

    The Zimbabwean cleric, who studied in Saudi Arabia, has described same-sex acts as “filthy,” “wrong” and synonymous with “acts of immorality”. He has been recorded as saying: “With all due respect to the animals, [gay people] are worse than those animals.”

    The Independent contacted all of the universities listed on the tour and each one said it had not officially invited Mr Menk to speak. Leeds, Cardiff and Glasgow University had already said they would not be hosting him on campus.

    Mr Menk was believed to have been invited by the universities’ Muslim students’ associations, many of whom were still advertising the event on their Facebook pages this afternoon. Glasgow University Muslim Association described the event as a “wonderful opportunity” on social media.

    Cardiff University Islamic Society changed its Facebook photo to a picture of Mr Menk. University of Leicester’s Islamic Society described him as “entertaining, yet very pious” on its social media page. Leeds University Union Islamic Society withdrew its invitation two days ago after realising his views.

    The National Union of Students said Mr Menk’s “reported comments are very concerning”. Ruth Hunt of Stonewall said: “Universities should always remain mindful that they have a duty to protect all of their students and to ensure balance in university discourse.”


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/universities-cancel-muslim-clerics-speaking-tour-over-concerns-about-his-antigay-views-8927902.html

  • Is it "moderate" to hate gays and women?
     Reply #29 - November 08, 2013, 02:43 AM

    Good. Spread the word people.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »