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 Topic: Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK

 (Read 5660 times)
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  • Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #30 - August 11, 2013, 03:52 AM

    QSE, it's not that it's invalid just because I or anybody else disagree with it. It's invalid because the hadith was made-up/invented.

    There are a large number of invented hadiths that fraudsters attribute to our Messenger. The hadiths of Aisha being married at 6/9 are one of those invented by fraudsters.

    The "married at 6" story is demonstrably false, but when people have an axe to grind, anything can and will be used for ammunition.
  • Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #31 - August 11, 2013, 04:01 AM

    Proof?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #32 - August 13, 2013, 02:50 AM

    That is a very simplistic way of looking at it and belies a lack of knowledge in 3ilmul hadeeth.

    A hadith is not considered sahih just because it is found in Bukhari or Muslim. That would turn Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim into infallible super-human scribes incapable of mistake. Although that would very much suit your "Islam is false because..." narrative, we Muslims do not believe in the infallibility of Bukhari and Muslim, both the men and the hadiths they collected and collated.

    There are many hadiths floating out there, some to be found in sahih books and classified as sahih that are plain ridiculous. Hadiths like drinking camel urine or a grown man being nursed by a grown woman.

    According the jumhoor of the ulema(concensus of all scholars), any hadith that is found to collide with human fitra is automatically rejected, regardless of how strong the chain of transmission is. Why? Because a creative liar can just as easily make up a hadith for whatever his heart desires and claim that it is sahih.

    So all of the hadiths stating that Aisha was 6 or 9 or 13 are fictitious and invented. They have no legitimacy because they collide with the human fitra(shay'un yatanaafa ma3al fitra).

    Sorry that I had to rain on your parade, but you're gonna have to find something else. Aisha was an adult in her 20s or late teens.

    Glad to be of service.


    Whilst I take issue with muslims and ex-muslims alike! restricting their history to Bukhari and Muslim I object to your assertion that hadith can/should only be varified with recourse to fitra (something non-corporeal). Intellectual dishonesty here, not to mention the subjectivity of the term 'fitra.' You're going to have to do better here, buddy.

    Also, pls reply to my proposition that morality does not exist (even if one is a muslim) in the rants thread. Thanks mate.
  • Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #33 - August 13, 2013, 09:33 AM

    Schizo - I have read in various places that animals such as chimpanzees exhibit 'morality' if this is true, makes it more likely that it exists in humans.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #34 - August 13, 2013, 09:35 AM

    Still waiting for my proof from Seeker.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • eRe: Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #35 - August 13, 2013, 10:27 AM

    Schizo - I have read in various places that animals such as chimpanzees exhibit 'morality' if this is true, makes it more likely that it exists in humans.


    1) I am speaking from a deterministic tradition 2) animals may exhibit various propensities but defining them according to certain criteria is entirely moral (hence relativism).
  • Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #36 - August 13, 2013, 11:44 AM

    "There are really only three reasons to insist -- as so many do -- that Aisha was only 9 years old when Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam (PBUH) married her: Either you are such a crazy Islamophile that you are willing to go to your grave insisting Muhammad could do whatever he wanted, or you are such a crazy Islamophobe that you want to insist he did, or you are such a weirdly religious sex-crazed pervert that you hope accusing him makes it OK for you to do it too.

    Fourth option: you are a normal human who can read, and you noticed that it says 9 years old in the scripture.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #37 - August 13, 2013, 02:44 PM

    I think I am with you on this one Seeker.

    If indeed Aisha was 6 or 9 and be the favourite wife the Prophet - this to me would mean he did like them young, you could argue if he was a paedophile or a hebephile but if everything he said, went then surely his harem would have a bevvy of school-girl types. Whereas in scriptures most of wives were of the mature variety.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #38 - August 13, 2013, 02:46 PM

    1) I am speaking from a deterministic tradition 2) animals may exhibit various propensities but defining them according to certain criteria is entirely moral (hence relativism).


    1) fair enough
    2) that must be why I typed morality in quote marks.

    Seriously though, how about a bit of dumbing down (your posts) for the likes of me. Can you try? is it possible?

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Imams encouraging child sex rings in the UK
     Reply #39 - August 13, 2013, 03:04 PM

    Quote

    well here is the proof that what Muslim intellectuals think is the proof on the age of Aisha...

    Quote
    Aisha’s age at marriage  by Nilofar Ahmed from   Land of Pure



    IT is said that Hazrat Aisha was six years old when her nikah was performed with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in Makkah, and nine years old when she moved in to live with her husband in Madina after Hijra.

    This piece of misinformation has led to the wrong view that child marriage has the sanction of Islam. It must be noted that establishing the authenticity of hadiths, the narrators’ circumstances and the conditions at that time have to be correlated with historical facts. There is only one hadith by Hisham which suggests the age of Hazrat Aisha as being nine when she came to live with her husband.

    Many authentic hadiths also show that Hisham’s narration is incongruous with several historical facts about the Prophet’s life, on which there is consensus. With reference to scholars such as Umar Ahmed Usmani, Hakim Niaz Ahmed and Habibur Rehman Kandhulvi, I would like to present some arguments in favour of the fact that Hazrat Aisha was at least 18 years old when her nikah was performed and at least 21 when she moved into the Prophet’s house to live with him.

    According to Umar Ahmed Usmani, in Surah Al-Nisa, it is said that the guardian of the orphans should keep testing them, until they reach the age of marriage, before returning their property (4:6). From this scholars have concluded that the Quran sets a minimum age of marriage which is at least puberty. Since the approval of the girl has a legal standing, she cannot be a minor.

    Hisham bin Urwah is the main narrator of this hadith. His life is divided into two periods: in 131A.H. the Madani period ended, and the Iraqi period started, when Hisham was 71 years old. Hafiz Zehbi has spoken about Hisham’s loss of memory in his later period. His students in Madina, Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifah, do not mention this hadith. Imam Malik and the people of Madina criticised him for his Iraqi hadiths.

    All the narrators of this hadith are Iraqis who had heard it from Hisham. Allama Kandhulvi says that the words spoken in connection with Hazrat Aisha’s age were tissa ashara, meaning 19, when Hisham only heard (or remembered), tissa, meaning nine. Maulana Usmani thinks this change was purposely and maliciously made later.

    Historian Ibn Ishaq in his Sirat Rasul Allah has given a list of the people who accepted Islam in the first year of the proclamation of Islam, in which Hazrat Aisha’s name is mentioned as Abu Bakr’s “little daughter Aisha”. If we accept Hisham’s calculations, she was not even born at that time.

    Some time after the death of the Prophet’s first wife, Hazrat Khadija, Khawla suggested to the Prophet that he get married again, to a bikrun, referring to Hazrat Aisha (Musnad Ahmed). In Arabic bikrun is used for an unmarried girl who has crossed the age of puberty and is of marriageable age. The word cannot be used for a six-year-old girl.

    Some scholars think that Hazrat Aisha was married off so early because in Arabia girls mature at an early age. But this was not a common custom of the Arabs at that time.
    Quote
    According to Allama Kandhulvi, there is no such case on record either before or after Islam. Neither has this ever been promoted as a Sunnah of the Prophet. The Prophet married off his daughters Fatima at 21 and Ruquiyya at 23. Besides, Hazrat Abu Bakr, Aisha’s father, married off his eldest daughter Asma at the age of 26.


    Hazrat Aisha narrates that she was present on the battlefield at the Battle of Badar (Muslim). This leads one to conclude that Hazrat Aisha moved into the Prophet’s house in 1 A.H. But a nine-year-old could not have been taken on a rough and risky military mission.

    In 2 A.H, the Prophet refused to take boys of less than 15 years of age to the battle of Uhud. Would he have allowed a 10-year-old girl to accompany him? But Anas reported that he saw Aisha and Umme Sulaim carrying goatskins full of water and serving it to the soldiers (Bukhari). Umme Sulaim and Umme Ammara, the other women present at Uhud, were both strong, mature women whose duties were the lifting of the dead and injured, treating their wounds, carrying water in heavy goatskins, supplying ammunition and even taking up the sword.

    Hazrat Aisha used the kunniat, the title derived from the name of a child, of Umme Abdullah after her nephew and adopted son. If she was six when her nikah was performed, she would have been only eight years his senior, hardly making him eligible for adoption. Also, a little girl could not have given up on ever having her own child and used an adopted child’s name for her kunniat.

    Hazrat Aisha’s nephew Urwah once remarked that he was not surprised about her amazing knowledge of Islamic law, poetry and history because she was the wife of the Prophet and the daughter of Abu Bakr. If she was eight when her father migrated, when did she learn poetry and history from him?
    Quote
    There is consensus that Hazrat Aisha was 10 years younger than her elder sister Asma, whose age at the time of the hijrah, or migration to Madina, was about 28. It can be concluded that Hazrat Aisha was about 18 years old at migration. On her moving to the Prophet’s house, she was a young woman at 21. Hisham is the single narrator of the hadith whose authenticity is challenged, for it does not correlate with the many historical facts of the time.


    The writer is a scholar of the Quran and writes on contemporary issues.  nilofar.ahmed58@gmail.com

    That entire article published in Dawn couple of days back..   There is some logic in her argument.,  The question why these Baboons with beards you see down inthe tubes can not use same logic is hard to answer..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c79AXU8bOSQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F13gtjjDEgE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apdFA_4ARSo

    there are plenty of blind and deaf idiots preaching to 1000s Muslims in mosques that Aisha was 9 year old little girl when Prophet of Islam slept with her..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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