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Theme Changer

 Topic: Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)

 (Read 32837 times)
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  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #60 - August 11, 2013, 09:53 PM

    Quote from:  Colonel Q-Daffi
    Our own Maryam Namazie. Now I have issues with her as a communist, but very rarely as an atheist or secularist…

    But Dawkins is an arrogant, obnoxious, apolitical troll. So when he makes trolling remarks regarding religion on twitter you'll have to forgive some of us for assuming the worst...

    Dawkins has the historical baggage of being a rich white man from a colonial power…


    Blog post from Maryam Namazie: Enough about white men!

    (tbf I think this was written before the latest controversy)
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #61 - August 11, 2013, 09:59 PM

    His "The Ancestor's Tale" just made my reading list though based on what some people have quoted from it to show he's a racist--

    What have they quoted from it?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #62 - August 11, 2013, 10:00 PM

    The Ancestor's Tale is a fascinating book, and also a very long one.  I don't remember anything even vaguely racist in it. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #63 - August 11, 2013, 10:01 PM

    Yeah, same here. But it was a while ago since I read it and I've slept since then.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #64 - August 11, 2013, 10:06 PM

    Blog post from Maryam Namazie: Enough about white men!

    (tbf I think this was written before the latest controversy)


    Interesting. Thanks for the link. I'll read later but on first view I suspect this may be one of the ways I disagree with the specifics of her socialist outlook, and I do have pretty big problems with it. Tongue

    What have they quoted from it?


    Basically where he talks about the common idea that the concept of race is of no scientific value whatsoever is wrong. It didn't seem particularly damning evidence to me but it did get me interested in reading it in the whole context of the book. That's all. I'll get back to you on my opinions when I've read it. I very much doubt it will give any credence to him being racist. If he's racist I think it's more likely from him being a crotchety old white man than any reasons based on his understanding of biology-- I respect him as a scientist, just not as a source of social commentary.

    fuck you
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #65 - August 11, 2013, 10:11 PM

    Basically where he talks about the common idea that the concept of race is of no scientific value whatsoever is wrong.

    Of what possible use would the concept of race be to science?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #66 - August 11, 2013, 10:13 PM

    I think I remember that part of the book, and iirc the racist claim is bollocks.  He was pouring cold water on some pseudo scientific nonsense where a fake "reunion" had been staged between completely unrelated people on the grounds of dodgy genetics.  He was basically saying that you can have completely unrelated people whose DNA show them to be of European descent, African descent, etc.  

    That part's right near the start of the book anyway, so if you disagree with my interpretation and think he's a racist, at least you won't have to read too far.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #67 - August 11, 2013, 10:22 PM

    Dawkins is a racist now, not just an islamaphobe? When'd that happen?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #68 - August 11, 2013, 10:27 PM

    Heh zeca, just read that article. The cynical side of me thinks she's intentionally staking out a position to distance herself and her comrade Ahadi from some of the other people on that list and stay close to her supporters. Creating a space where the WPI and its affiliated organizations stand alone amongst the organized radical left and can attract support of certain sectors of the bourgeois left. But meh, it's all speculation from a mean-spirited, paranoid man, pay no mind. Tongue But yeah see this where I said I disagree with her on her politics but I like her better than the apolitical New Atheists cause I can at least put her comments on secularism into the context of a broader political program she advocates, and, in general, I agree with the basics of that program. But with revolutionary socialism the devil is always in the details.  grin12

    That part's right near the start of the book anyway, so if you disagree with my interpretation and think he's a racist, at least you won't have to read too far.


    Again, I don't expect to find evidence he's a racist.

    Of what possible use would the concept of race be to science?


    I dunno, ask your boy Dawkins or ask me after I read the book. Again the part I read doesn't mean much outside of its context. People are cherry-picking shit. I'll read it and get back to ya.

    fuck you
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #69 - August 11, 2013, 10:37 PM

    If he'd said anything remotely racist, I think I'd probably remember it. The only thing I can imagine it being is the idea that genetic commonalities are useful for classification, or that certain traits common to certain population groups might be of some interest in a biological sense. Or perhaps when studying population migration and distribution.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #70 - August 11, 2013, 10:44 PM

    Right that's the sense I was getting. Just wanted to see what some of my FB friends were on about. You know us pesky leftists. Tongue

    fuck you
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #71 - August 11, 2013, 10:46 PM

    Dawkins is a racist now, not just an islamaphobe? When'd that happen?


    All racists(non-muslim) are Islamophobes, though not all Islamophobes are racists. I have no feelings either way about Dawkins the man but he was grouping one body of people and singling them out.

    I don't know if I believe that race is biological or social construct. Some classifications may well be biological, some used to identify appearance to the police, perhaps some race background is needed to diagnose treatment - in wiki it classifies race as a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by anatomical, cultural, ethnic, genetic, geographical, historical, linguistic, religious, or social affiliation. Depends on your politics how far down the line you go.

    I talk specifically of the UK. According to Race Relations Act to all intent and purposes the Jews and Sikhs are classified as a race. I don't believe they are but there you have it.

    If it is a social construct then you can make muslims a race in terms of Race Relations Act. For protection - so there is no need for offence lol. You would never get away with writing Jews and Blacks in a negative headline, like you can with Muslims.

    Maybe Race status could be a double-edged sword. But if push ever came to shove, brown and circumcised, is all you need to be. Fuck your love of opera and your disbelief.

    Religions get racialised. Muslims are undergoing what happened to the Jews, in terms of them being racialized. Hell our sex crimes (until Savile)are given exposure like Jewish ones in Nazi Germany.

    ETA - Not necessarily Nazi Germany - Europe as a whole.




    Hmm, perhaps those who would fight hardest not for any sniff of social race construction for MUSLIMS and not just in terms of definition would be self-hating 'muslims' perhaps.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #72 - August 11, 2013, 10:48 PM

    Is Lauren Booth the same race as Bin Laden?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #73 - August 11, 2013, 10:49 PM

    He's never said anything racist. His main gripe with religion is based on ideology which is either destructive, harmful or an obstacle. Objecting stem cell research purely on religious grounds. He's against it. Laws granting legal protection for denying children life saving treatments on religious grounds. He's against it. Teaching children he or she will go to hell for doing something or thinking something that causes no harm. He's against it. Death penalty for people who leave islam. He's against it.

    We can argue his wording, and sometimes I'd agree he can be blunt to the point of being insensitive, but deliverance aside he's said nothing (at least that I'm aware of) I wouldn't agree with.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #74 - August 11, 2013, 10:52 PM

    Is Lauren Booth the same race as Bin Laden?


    Seems to be going that way these days. It's idiotic. Defending a small and at times vulnerable minority is something no one with a conscience can be against. Labelling the criticism of certain teachings is not in any way shape or form racist.

    Yes most muslims in the country are brown, but that doesn't make something racist when it's not.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #75 - August 11, 2013, 10:57 PM

    All racists(non-muslim) are Islamophobes,


    Mostly true, but not necessarily when you get to the very far right. Some respect Islam's discipline and find common cause against "Zionism"

    Quote
    I don't know if I believe that race is biological or social construct. Some classifications may well be biological, some used to identify appearance to the police, perhaps some race background is needed to diagnose treatment - in wiki it classifies race as a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by anatomical, cultural, ethnic, genetic, geographical, historical, linguistic, religious, or social affiliation. Depends on your politics how far down the line you go.

    I talk specifically of the UK. According to Race Relations Act to all intent and purposes the Jews and Sikhs are classified as a race. I don't believe they are but there you have it.

    If it is a social construct then you can make muslims a race in terms of Race Relations Act. For protection - so there is no need for offence lol. You would never get away with writing Jews and Blacks in a negative headline, like you can with Muslims.

    Maybe Race status could be a double-edged sword. But if push ever came to shove, brown and circumcised, is all you need to be. Fuck your love of opera and your disbelief.

    Religions get racialised. Muslims are undergoing what happened to the Jews, in terms of them being racialized. Hell our sex crimes (until Savile)are given exposure like Jewish ones in Nazi Germany.

    Hmm, perhaps those who would fight hardest not for any sniff of social race construction for MUSLIMS and not just in terms of definition would be self-hating 'muslims' perhaps.


    Excellent points/inquiries. Just as an FYI Arab/North African-Americans were listed in the US as Caucasians along with all other white folk and hate crimes against them not tracked by the FBI until just this year. The concept of "race" in society and its intersection with religion, culture, language and national origin are very complex indeed and the whole "Islam is not a race!" serves more as a simplistic dismissal than a helpful suggestion for proper classification.

    Objecting stem cell research purely on religious grounds. He's against it. Laws granting legal protection for denying children life saving treatments on religious grounds. He's against it. Teaching children he or she will go to hell for doing something or thinking something that causes no harm. He's against it. Death penalty for people who leave islam. He's against it.


    Well damn I guess Richie Rich is a regular punk rocker den

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SULusD1cRxI

    fuck you
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #76 - August 11, 2013, 10:57 PM


    So If You’re Muslim, Then Why Are You White? The Difference Between Race and Religion

    Posted on March 20, 2013  by  convertconfessions   
     
    9
     

    64317_10150559801462391_205799721_n

    My friend Lubna recently reminded me of this question I often receive, so I thought I would elaborate Smiley

    Yes, I am white.  Caucasian. My heritage is Czech mostly with a sprinkle of Irish and German, but I’m American.  100% cracker, white girl status.

    And, I’m Muslim.  100%… MUSLIM.

    So, HOW CAN THAT BE?

    Islam is the name of our religion – as Christianity or Judaism is the name of other religions.

    Muslim is the name of the person who follows Islam – as Christian or Jew is the name of people who follow other religions.

    Caucasian is my race.  As other races are African American, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc…

    268472_101771639921786_3004954_n

    Your religion is connected to how you perceive the world, who you worship, what you believe in. It has nothing to do with where you were born, or where your parents were born.

    You can be a black Buddhist from Budapest.

    You can be an Asian Jew from Timbuktu.

    And, as you read in my bio, I’m a Caucasian Muslim from Ohio.

    (I hope you liked my rhymes).

    398898_10151024264369459_25593469_n

    Yes, I’m learning Arabic.

    Yes, I love Arab culture.

    Yes, I make waraq aynab wa kousa mashi wa samboosa (all Arabic foods).

    But I’m a white girl.  And I’ll always be white.  And I’ll never be FROM an Arab country. And I’m very thankful for who I am. I like that I’m different. I love surprising people when they ask “Intee min wein?!” and I say “ana min hon!” (Where are you from? I’m from HERE!”).

    See, not all Muslims are Arab.  I know people associate Islam with Arabic, Arab culture, etc… , but it’s not 100% accurate.

    Our Prophet Muhammad (saws) lived in modern-day Saudi Arabia.  This is true.  But, Malaysia actually has the biggest Muslim population in the world.  It’s not an Arab country at all!

    And, not all Arabs are Muslim – there are many Christian Arabs in Lebanon, for example.

    My Grandmother and I
    My Grandmother and I

    Funny, I know, but my grandma calls me all the time and tells me that she goes to Arab restaurants to feel like she is “in touch with my cultural roots.”

    Grandma, we’re Czech.  My cultural roots include pierogies and kolacky and polka music.  Not Tamer Hosny and falafel.

    She told me recently that she’s going to start taking matters into her own hands if I don’t get married soon and start meeting nice Arab families to marry me off to. I told her I want a nice MUSLIM husband and I explained to her the difference between Arab and Muslim.  I thought she got it.  Then, at the end of the conversation she said she would make sure he was Arab.

    I have a feeling she’s going to bring home an Israeli guy for me and not know the difference.

    284651_101771843255099_2087756_n

    I guess that I should say I would prefer that people don’t confuse my love for Islam with my love for Arab culture.  I do care about both, very much.  And I feel like I am very influenced by Arab culture, but I’m much more influenced by Islam.

    Islam is perfect. Muslims are not. Arab Muslims aren’t always the best Muslims.

    Islam is a mercy for all mankind.  Not just Arabs.

    When a lady at WalMart told me to go back where I came from, I told her I’m from CLEVELAND.

    There is a hadith (not sure on how authentic) but it says that Prophet Muhammad said, “O people, know that the Lord and Sustainer is One. Your ancestor is one, your faith is one. The Arabism of anyone of you is not from your mother or father. It is no more than a tongue (language).” (As quoted in Islam The Natural Way by Abdul Wahid Hamid p. 125)

    May Allah give us the wisdom to realize that Islam is for all people – in all times – of all colors – forever. And, may He give us the tolerance and patience to understand that the diversity of the world is beautiful. Ameen.



    http://convertconfessions.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/so-if-youre-muslim-then-why-are-you-white-the-difference-between-race-and-religion/

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #77 - August 11, 2013, 10:58 PM

    Is Lauren Booth the same race as Bin Laden?


    There are white Sikhs and there are black Jews, ( just that I don't know any famous ones.)

    I am talking UK specifically.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #78 - August 11, 2013, 11:02 PM

    There are white Sikhs and there are black Jews, ( just that I don't know any famous ones.)

    I am talking UK specifically.


    Well, US...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sammy_Davis,_Jr.

    Back before any of our times I'm assuming this guy was HUGELY famous.

    fuck you
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #79 - August 11, 2013, 11:04 PM

    If he'd said anything remotely racist, I think I'd probably remember it. The only thing I can imagine it being is the idea that genetic commonalities are useful for classification, or that certain traits common to certain population groups might be of some interest in a biological sense. Or perhaps when studying population migration and distribution.


    i havent read it, but i have heard there is good reason to personalise medicine based on something similar to race.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #80 - August 11, 2013, 11:06 PM

    Well, US...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sammy_Davis,_Jr.

    Back before any of our times I'm assuming this guy was HUGELY famous.


    Forgot about him. When I say UK, I mean there is a precedent with Jews and Sikhs given race status (not that there aren't any famous ones, would be surprised though).  Thanks for reminding me about the some of the Stormfront type regarding Racists/islamophobes - damn that is twice I have had to tighten it up, first time round forgot about the racist muslims.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #81 - August 11, 2013, 11:10 PM

    i havent read it, but i have heard there is good reason to personalise medicine based on something similar to race.


    That rings a bell. I remember once hearing that white people live longer than black people statistically but that was an episode of House.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #82 - August 11, 2013, 11:14 PM

     Cheesy Gee, I wonder why?

    fuck you
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #83 - August 11, 2013, 11:15 PM

    Seems to be going that way these days. It's idiotic. Defending a small and at times vulnerable minority is something no one with a conscience can be against. Labelling the criticism of certain teachings is not in any way shape or form racist.

    Yes most muslims in the country are brown, but that doesn't make something racist when it's not.

    Well, put Dawkins, Muslims and Racist in the same article, and it's insta clickbait.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #84 - August 11, 2013, 11:19 PM

    Large swathes of the critical scrutiny of Islam that appears on this forum and in the work of the CEMB on a wide range of issues by ex-Muslims and secular minded non Muslims will be deemed 'racist' by some people.

    Taking the care to delineate the difference between expressions of direct causative culpability and generalisation and defending freedom of conscience and critique of religion would help to dispel this. As would an honest appreciation of the malleability of religious identity (which is complicated by the one way street aspect of becoming / unbecoming Muslim)




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #85 - August 11, 2013, 11:26 PM

    i havent read it, but i have heard there is good reason to personalise medicine based on something similar to race.

    It depends who one asks, what medicine/conditions one is talking about, and what one means mean by race. What we usually refer to as race is just superficial differences. Biologists acknowledge certain useful patterns, but those patterns don't always go parallel with what us layfolk consider race.
      
    Either way, it's becoming less relevant as medicine moves towards individual-based medicine.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #86 - August 11, 2013, 11:35 PM

    QSE - said ---->Yes most muslims in the country are brown, but that doesn't make something racist when it's not.

    So the killing of Sikhs and Hindus mistaken for Muslims because of their brown skin? In this case Dawkins, not saying he is a racist, singled out a group a people, if it was women he would be sexist (how many nobel prizes have women won?) - he wasn't saying that Islam hadn't won any Nobel Prizes but Muslims. But like yeezeevee point out (this must be a first, me agreeing with yeezeevee lol) that point could be made out by grouping other people. To single muslims out was at least Islamophobic if not tinged with racist undertones.

    The fact that Christians did not complain. It is not open season on them. They are identified as teachers, workers, nurses not by the colour of their skin.

    I blame successive governments -  instead of being too nice to Muslims here and killing them over there,  they should have been less nicer over here and not killing them over there. What do we get!

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #87 - August 11, 2013, 11:37 PM

    Large swathes of the critical scrutiny of Islam that appears on this forum and in the work of the CEMB on a wide range of issues by ex-Muslims and secular minded non Muslims will be deemed 'racist' by some people.


    Some people will say stupid shit no matter the topic or organization.
    Quote
    Taking the care to delineate the difference between expressions of direct causative culpability and generalisation and defending freedom of conscience and critique of religion would help to dispel this. As would an honest appreciation of the malleability of religious identity (which is complicated by the one way street aspect of becoming / unbecoming Muslim)


    U use big wordz i no understand also misspell generalization




    [/quote]

    fuck you
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #88 - August 11, 2013, 11:42 PM

    Large swathes of the critical scrutiny of Islam that appears on this forum and in the work of the CEMB on a wide range of issues by ex-Muslims and secular minded non Muslims will be deemed 'racist' by some people.


    Yes there are a few self-haters. Though take someone like Saif? He can critically analyse islam without coming across as racists. Not that I have read loads of his stuff, but his thread on cultural Muslims. Happymurtad, you Billy, plenty of others don't come across as racists/self-haters(if indeed you are born-muslim)

    Quote
    Taking the care to delineate the difference between expressions of direct causative culpability and generalisation and defending freedom of conscience and critique of religion would help to dispel this. As would an honest appreciation of the malleability of religious identity (which is complicated by the one way street aspect of becoming / unbecoming Muslim)


    Sounds good.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Dawkins upsets Muslims again (Scientific achievement)
     Reply #89 - August 11, 2013, 11:43 PM

    Quote
    Some people will say stupid shit no matter the topic or organization.


    Happens all the time. And as a forum and organisation its our duty to point it out because the stifling consequences of this are important to highlight, because ex-Muslims are stifled enough as it is. And if we don't speak about it, nobody else will.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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