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 Topic: Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet

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  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     OP - August 01, 2013, 11:21 PM
    Hi everyone ! I'm livelifeoutloud and this is my story :

    I'm a 16 years-old girl,born and raised in a muslim family in a country where the majorities are muslims.During my childhood,I was raised to the idea that Islam is the right religion and that there's only one true kind powerful and merciful god ubove us,even on the days where i'd question his existence my mother would shut me right away,she'd always tell me atheists are going to burn in eternal hell.A few years later,I hit puberty at 12,but still I was never encouraged to pray nor to wear a hijab but my dad banned me from wearing shorts,skirts,dresses,yoga pants .... But I was okay with it,I was a muslim I had to cover my body because i'm some kind off gem (lol) The only thing that changed was fasting (which is weirdly easy for me).At 14,one of my teachers told me hijab was necessary and that I should wear it if I want to be considered a real muslim,of course I didn't,Islam for me was at heart not some kind off headscarf.After I was lectured by a lot of people around me I started praying regurarly last year,at first I felt peace but then it just felt like routine.The first time my doubts started was a few months ago when my philosophy teacher (who is a hijabi woman) told us to write down one or multiple reasons that prove god exists without using surat from quran or any hadiths,I couldn't find any,neither did my other 20 classmates who are also muslims.I tried to reject it,I stopped thinking about it,thinking about god not existing was a sin,it would send me to eternal hell.I kept praying and chased all my thoughts away.Before starting ramadan,I saw this picture on twitter that stated if you read 20 pages per day of quran you'll finish it by the end of ramadan,so i thought i'll try it out because if I wanna consider myself a true muslim considering i never read the quran (only a few surat here and there).
    When I read the quran,I found so many incoherent things like beating your wife is allowed,or that women and men are not equal (we are both his creatures,how can he prefer one over the other,its like asking a mother to choose her favorite child)how all the things that are not allowed here are allowed in the after-life,or even how we shouldn't be friends with any non-muslims.I'm still researching,I started reading the bible recently,I still pray and fast but I think my faith is gone.I still can't admit it,deep down I still believe there's a god,a good one,a merciful one,a kind one not one that mentions hell,torture in nearly every page of his holy book.I'm not an atheist ... yet.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #1 - August 02, 2013, 03:34 AM
    Welcome Livelife!

    Believe me, you will become an atheist. I have been in your shoes before  whistling2

    And for your bravery to join CEMB, i give you  parrot and  bunny Good Luck  Afro

    When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #2 - August 02, 2013, 05:30 AM
    Livelifeoutload,

    Welcome to CEMB. And no, it's not inevitable that you will become an atheist.

    ",deep down I still believe there's a god,a good one,a merciful one"

    So do I. In spite of so many doubts, I still believe in Allah, the Merciful, and the Compassionate. I admit that I do not understand what He does(or doesn't do) and why He does it.  I do not understand His silence in the face of so much suffering and evil. I do not understand why so many of my prayers have gone unanswered

    But I still believe in Him. His Mercy. His Love. His Providence.

    The essence of faith is believing without having all the answers. To believe: even in the face of crushing doubt.

    Don't pay any attention to what your parents or teachers say Islam is. Islam is what is in your heart, not what some dead men who lived hundreds of years of ago said. Love all of your fellow mankind. That is Islam. Help the poor and needy. That is Islam. Study, learn, grow, progress, evolve. That is Islam. Reach for the stars, come crashing down, curl up in a fetal position and call for Allah's help. That is Islam. Laugh, dance, jump, skip. That is Islam. That urge you have to rescue a puppy and give him a home even though your parents say "dogs are unclean"? That is Islam. Ignore your parents, follow your conscience(Islam). Rescue the puppy, let him lick your face. He's perfectly clean. That hadith they will use as "evidence" is most likely madeup/invented by some next guy who didn't like dogs.

    If someone points out a verse in the quran or a hadith that sounds cruel or hateful or unjust, then make sure you understand it in context of the harsh, unforgiving environment of 7th century Arabia. It doesn't necessarily apply to 21st century Bangladesh or Senegal or Kuwait. It was "OK" to beat women in the 7th century; It is disgusting, immoral, and inhumane to do so today. When researching, make sure you are able to contextualize and use nuanced thinking, taking into consideration factors like: era, culture, and class; as opposed to the Richard Dawkins-like "Either this or that" absolute-ism.

    Human beings, including Muslims, have evolved and progressed beyond relying on the literal interpretation and understanding of religious text. Religious text serves primarily as an inspiration, a source of spirituality and serenity for the soul. If you approach it the same way you would a book of mathematical proofs, you're bound to be disappointed. You won't find the solutions to an quadratic equation or elements of the periodic table in the Quran or the Hadiths , so don't go looking for logical perfection or mathematical precision.

    If you want to wear hijab, wear it. But only because you want to, not because someone is making you to.
    If you don't, don't.

    If you want to pray, pray.
    If you don't, don't.

    Whatever you do, don't let anybody tell you how to think or what to believe in: Neither Richard Dawkins nor Mullah Zakir Naik. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. Atheists(some) can be just as full of shit as fundamentalists, just as arrogant, and just as judgmental.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #3 - August 02, 2013, 11:19 AM
    ^ If everyone thought like that, there wouldn't be a problem, and sites like this would not even be needed. Unfortunately, you are in the minority and numerous and  louder voices are out there who will make a list of what is Islam, and it will make yours look naive to say the least.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #4 - August 02, 2013, 12:44 PM
    Welcome livelifeoutloud.  parrot Everybody thinks up such cool usernames here! 

    You are obviously super smart to work all this out on your own at just 16 and you have your whole life ahead of you.  dance
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #5 - August 02, 2013, 01:44 PM
    Awaken Malay : Thanks ! We'll see about that !  Smiley
    Seeker : I've done that for the past 4 years,only choosing to do and practice the islam i believed in,helping the poor,being nice and respectful to everyone and not causing any harm or encouraging any violence,treating men and women equally,but it is very hard,most muslims will tell you to either believe all of it (good and bad without questions or doubts)or just don't believe it all together.
    Uber Slave : There indeed a lot of people that think like seeker,the old me for example and some muslims around me,they'll believe in God but not Mohammed,believe in Islam but embrace art,encourage human rights and speak out against violence but most of them would only do it during their teenage years then after settling down (go to university,get a job,marry someone..) they'll be as close-minded as the imam next door.
    Tony T : Thanks ! Even though i'm only 16 i still have that feeling that i've built my life all of these years on a " lie ".

    I just want to add that we have eyes to see truth from lie,a mouth to speak up,a brain to think and debate rationally and i think its pure crime to tell human-beings that using those basic functions are a sin and will send them to eternal torture in hell.If there's a God,he should have for us,the love a mother has to her children,they may lie to her,betray her,turn their back on her,but after all she'll still love them no matter what and would never want to torture them even a little second.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #6 - August 02, 2013, 05:39 PM
    Hey livelifeoutloud (love the name) glad to see you here. I have to say I really agree with Seeker.

    Whether or not there is a god is something we will never have an answer to. We can believe there is or is not but we won't ever be able to prove it.

    Religion can be one of two things. it can be a step by step instruction manual for every aspect of your life. What to eat, what not to eat, how to walk, how to dress, how to think, how to act, or it can be something spiritual.

    Perhaps all religions are different aspects of the divine, or perhaps all are pure fiction. Personally I think the latter. I don't believe in a god. It was never something I chose. I don't think you can choose to believe or not believe in something, you either do or you don't. If you don't believe in the god as described in the quran, that doesn't mean there is no god. Even if all the religions, those around today, those lost to history, and those that have yet to be created are wrong it still doesn't mean there isn't a god. It just means that we don't know about him/her/it/them.

    You're on a journey of discovery, and this is one of the greatest journeys there is. If we didn't question, if we didn't challenge, if we didn't think, we'd still be living in caves. It's people who do question and explore and learn and challenge that we owe our advancement to.

    You don't have to believe in islam, but by that same token you can define it for yourself instead of being instructed on how to perceive it by someone else. Religion is in the eye of the beholder, and if you don't define islam the way others tell you to, that's fine. It really is. Above all, be true to yourself and never be afraid to question.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #7 - August 02, 2013, 09:44 PM
    Quod : Your words really have enlightened me and got me thinking and questioning a lot of things about islam and like my *favorite* philospher Socrates said : The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #8 - August 02, 2013, 10:16 PM
    Quote from: UberSlave on August 02, 2013, 11:19 AM
    ^ If everyone thought like that, there wouldn't be a problem, and sites like this would not even be needed. Unfortunately, you are in the minority and numerous and  louder voices are out there who will make a list of what is Islam, and it will make yours look naive to say the least.


    No. Please no. If everyone thought like that, noone would be able to differentiate between truth and falsehood.

    "The essence of faith is believing without having all the answers. To believe: even in the face of crushing doubt."

    Seeker, as noble as your passage of yours above may seem, it does not face up to reality. Yes, the essence of faith is exactly believing in the face of crushing doubt, which is why faith is also the essence of stupidity. We may choose to have faith in the manner you described, but we cannot think like this. One of the reasons why so many people remain deluded is because they attach the word "islam" to whatever they want to, not realizing that their ideas have already escaped islam. You can choose not to wear the hijab, choose not to agree with some of the passages in the Qur'aan, and continue to pick and choose aspects of Islam you like and dislike. In fact, you can choose to do anything. Just don't attach the "Islam" tag to your beliefs. They are not "Islamic" at all. There is no "Islam for me". They are anything but. They are just you.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #9 - August 02, 2013, 10:19 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 02, 2013, 05:39 PM
    Hey livelifeoutloud (love the name) glad to see you here. I have to say I really agree with Seeker.

    Whether or not there is a god is something we will never have an answer to. We can believe there is or is not but we won't ever be able to prove it.



    Unless the God is defined in such a way that is logically incoherent. A square circle can't exist.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #10 - August 02, 2013, 10:21 PM
    -
  • Re: Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #11 - August 03, 2013, 07:37 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 02, 2013, 05:39 PM
    Hey livelifeoutloud (love the name) glad to see you here. I have to say I really agree with Seeker.

    Whether or not there is a god is something we will never have an answer to. We can believe there is or is not but we won't ever be able to prove it.

    Religion can be one of two things. it can be a step by step instruction manual for every aspect of your life. What to eat, what not to eat, how to walk, how to dress, how to think, how to act, or it can be something spiritual.

    Perhaps all religions are different aspects of the divine, or perhaps all are pure fiction. Personally I think the latter. I don't believe in a god. It was never something I chose. I don't think you can choose to believe or not believe in something, you either do or you don't. If you don't believe in the god as described in the quran, that doesn't mean there is no god. Even if all the religions, those around today, those lost to history, and those that have yet to be created are wrong it still doesn't mean there isn't a god. It just means that we don't know about him/her/it/them.

    You're on a journey of discovery, and this is one of the greatest journeys there is. If we didn't question, if we didn't challenge, if we didn't think, we'd still be living in caves. It's people who do question and explore and learn and challenge that we owe our advancement to.

    You don't have to believe in islam, but by that same token you can define it for yourself instead of being instructed on how to perceive it by someone else. Religion is in the eye of the beholder, and if you don't define islam the way others tell you to, that's fine. It really is. Above all, be true to yourself and never be afraid to question.


    Two things I deem prudent to append to your post.
    1) The idea of a nonphysical deity violates Hume's three principles of causation — those being: temporal priority, spacial contiguity and law-like conjunction. If God caused the big bang, he can satisfy point (1) (provisionally at least) but wouldn't be able to satisfy points (2) and (3)
    2) If a sceptic endeavours  to falsify the deity of a theist, said theist will be mentally coerced to proffer qualifiers. Eventually he will have to capitulate to a modal scepticism of sorts where God's logic is incomprehensible.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #12 - August 03, 2013, 07:49 AM
    Schizo, why can't you ever construct your posts using simpler words? Are you trying to hide the incoherence of your posts through complex vocabulary? I'm kidding, I can't actually ever know how coherent your posts are.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #13 - August 03, 2013, 08:00 AM
    Quote from: kutta on August 03, 2013, 07:49 AM
    Schizo, why can't you ever construct your posts using simpler words? Are you trying to hide the incoherence of your posts through complex vocabulary? I'm kidding, I can't actually ever know how coherent your posts are.


    Stop reading Dawkins and co. Tongue
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #14 - August 04, 2013, 02:36 AM
    But I just wanted to ask a simple question why are muslims so afraid of atheists ? For example,where I live,atheists if not killed before are put to jail.I mean if they have strong faith and they really believe in God (Allah whatever) why do they need to kill those who don't.Islam tells their preachers that non-believers are going to suffer in eternal hell because they deserve it for not believing in God even if they're the closest people to you : your parents,brothers/sisters,cousins,grandparents,etc.. That's just straight up cruel and it kills human compassion between each other.So what is your opinion ?
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #15 - August 04, 2013, 04:09 AM
    Hi and welcome, Livelife Smiley

    Have a compulsory welcome parrot (there *IS* compulsion in parroting!) parrot

    Killing atheists? wacko I think I better stay away from your part of our planet then! grin12

    I have never been religious (and thus never used that part of the brain you have the joy of in your doubts - and teh Interwebs make kids so bloody smart these days as well! Old geezer ) but my opinion is that you are a perfectly sound, caring, curious and intelligent young human being.

    And to me it seems like atheists are dangerous because it threatens the power of the religion and the power some can use to control people through the religion (fear of Jahannam/Allah, obey your husband/parents, rewards (no houris for you though - but you get to be with your husband for eternity!)).
    Also Islam was/is kind of expansionist in ideology and had a few skirmishes in the beginning with apostates (the Riddah wars) to be followed by a few civil wars (Fitna). Hard to conquer the world that way if even Muslims fight against.

    Also one out-spoken ex-Muslim atheist can sow the seeds of doubt in MANY Muslims.

    One of the others on this forum posted this 1000 year old Islamic poem (can't remember who):

    "They all err—Muslims, Jews,
    Christians, and Zoroastrians:
    Humanity follows two world-wide sects:
    One, man intelligent without religion,
    The second, religious without intellect."
    - Abul ʿAla Al-Maʿarri (973-1058 AD)

    Note that the poet lived 22 years longer than Mohammed. So Allah kind of must have a problem with his alleged omnipotence.

    Welcome again Smiley
    Nikolaj
    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #16 - August 04, 2013, 06:13 PM
    Islam teaches that god created non believers and will send them to hell for how he created them.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #17 - August 04, 2013, 08:39 PM
    Nikolaj : I agree with you,some muslims don't even consider that God doesn't exist and will respond with astarghfirouallah or allah knows best everytime you make an argument when deep down they know its none different from fairytales (I actually enjoy fairytales more).But what really makes me sad,is how islam doesn't embrace art (music,painting,...),the beauty of the human body (men or women) or rational thinking,you must follow the book entirely or you're a kafir.If there's really a God,wouldn't he want us to be creative ? be passionate about something else than religion ? embrace our beauty ? use our brains and think logically and come up with conclusions ? Or would he want us to follow and praise him like brainless sheeps ?
    Quod : That's one of the things that really got me questioning islam.If Allah really knows best,sees the future and knows every  single one of our thoughts,then he would know who would follow him and who wouldn't.Therefore why didn't he just send the non-believers to hell and believers to heaven from the beginning without going through this whole " test " stuff.It's just absurd.Oh and in the quran it says that Allah leads and misleads who he wants so obviously he wanted to see people burning in hell.What a great God.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #18 - August 04, 2013, 09:07 PM
    It's not just that. As the lord and creator of all allah CHOOSES to make someone muslim or not before they are born. After birth, allah chooses to put a veil over your heart to make it so you can't see the truth of islam and are punished for a crime you never yourself committed. Simply put, we're created with a sickness we can never overcome and demanded to be well on pain of eternal torture. Sadism at it's finest.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #19 - August 05, 2013, 03:23 AM
    Another proof that Allah is not all that merciful.Why not just create us with that faith in our hearts,and why all religions emerged only from the desert of the middle east ? This still makes me angry,I'm searching for peace and hopefully I will find it.
    By the way,I just finished reading the Quran today,first thing I thought of is dumping it in the nearest garbage can but I wouldn't want to cause parents a heart attack.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #20 - August 05, 2013, 03:40 AM
    Well to be fair not all religions come from the middle east. Most of them don't. I view the quran purely as a work of fiction.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #21 - August 05, 2013, 03:47 AM
    The religions that praise the same god as islam (christianity and judaism) both came from the middle east.But I'm gonna admit that I don't really have any knowledge of other religion I've heard of them but never really researched them,most of the time people around me will mock them and be like : Look they praise a cow ! or Look they praise a statue ! or Look they praise the sun ! When in reality islam is not really that far off either.
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #22 - August 05, 2013, 03:51 AM
    Personally if I was ever going to join a religion it would either be Buddhism or Witchcraft. Though alas to do that I'd have to believe in life after death and magic. Neither of which I can take seriously.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #23 - August 05, 2013, 03:58 AM
    I'd love to follow Witchcraft,casting spells and stuff,the dream of my childhood (mostly because Harry Potter)  Cheesy
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #24 - August 05, 2013, 04:06 AM
    It's more the ethical teachings I find attractive. The Witches Creed is quite an interesting read, and the teachings about tolerance and non violence are things I find very appealing. Also, I find the songs lovely Smiley
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #25 - August 05, 2013, 04:14 AM
    After I finish reading the bible I'll do some reading on the Witchcraft stuff,more knowlegde is never harmful  Afro
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #26 - August 05, 2013, 04:20 AM
    Did you know at one point Mohammad claimed that Allah had daughters? Three Goddesses by the names of Al-lāt, Al-‘Uzzá and Manāt?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #27 - August 05, 2013, 04:30 AM
    No never heard of that,its mentionned in a hadith ?
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #28 - August 05, 2013, 04:49 AM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

    It fits as far as spreading the religion goes. Mo was desperate for followers and claimed that the native religion was in line with the new one. From what I understand Mo and others made a point of including the goddesses into islam, and when he had sufficient followers declared that he was misled by the Devil.

    It was actually quite clever of him. The christians did a similar thing with Ragnarok.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hi ! Im not an atheist ... yet
     Reply #29 - August 05, 2013, 05:01 AM
    How come I never heard of these before ? At school,we have this subject called Islamic Instruction,but our teacher never bothered to mention these,he even said that when Mo was born,angels came down and removed all evil from his heart so that he cannot ever be compelled by " Satan ".How contradictory.That just shows that he did everything to have more people following his fairytales.
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