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ماذا يحدث هذه الايام؟؟؟.
by akay
August 10, 2019, 10:38 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: The Koran and the Iliad

 (Read 1812 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     OP - July 06, 2013, 08:05 AM

    I note the Koran uses ideas from the Hebrew Bible and Christianity.  But what of the other major source of thinking of the time?  Homer?

    What discussions are there about Greek influences on the Koran?  It is impossible for them not to be there.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #1 - July 06, 2013, 08:50 PM

    I might have just found an interesting one!  Agamemnon's Royal Sceptre is described by Homer as being made by... then given to ...then to... then to ...and then to King Agamemnon!

    So evidence of authenticity is at least a 2700 year old idea!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #2 - July 08, 2013, 02:43 PM

    Isn't Quranic embryology copied from an ancient Greek? Who also got it wrong.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #3 - July 08, 2013, 03:03 PM

    There would not be too much of pre-Christian Greek beliefs because those were "Pagan" and the early Muslims hated Paganism. Of course much of the Christian stories that appear in the Quran are of Greek origin, for example the story of the seven sleepers is a Greek Christian tradition set in the Greek city of Ephesus (in modern Turkey).

    There is also the story of Zhu-Qarnayn, "the two horned one" which is a corruption of Josephus account of Alexander the Great, the great Greek King who, according to Josephus, built a great wall at the end of the Earth to keep out the armies of the Biblical characters Gog and Magog. Of course this is not really a Greek story as it was written by a Jew and the Greeks themselves never wrote that Alexander the Great built such a wall, so it is not really a Greek tradition. However, the idea that Alexander the Great had horns was a belief that the Greeks themselves perpetuated in an attempt to legitimize their rule over Egypt by associating Alexander the Great with a horned Egyptian God. So in a sense a small part of the story does originate from Pagan Greeks.

    Klingshor writes in more detail of the various origins of the Zhu-Qarnyan story here.
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #4 - July 08, 2013, 03:08 PM

    Why on Earth did people hate wonderful characters like Zeus, Apollo, Hercules, Achilles, Hera, Helen, Paris, Odysseus, Mars?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #5 - July 08, 2013, 03:10 PM

    I think it was more a case of convert or die.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #6 - July 08, 2013, 03:23 PM

    There would not be too much of pre-Christian Greek beliefs because those were "Pagan" and the early Muslims hated Paganism.


    I'm confused though, isn't Islamic ritualism based on pagan beliefs?  hajj, going road the kabah, the name Allah, fasting, prayer etc?  all based on the former pagan belief of that time?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #7 - July 08, 2013, 04:03 PM

    True, a lot of it is from Pagan Arab traditions. The first Muslims at the time probably did not see it as pagan, but rather the natural way to worship, it is not so easy to just get people to abandon every part of their culture, so some pagan Arab traditions had to remain.

    But something that is obviously foreign AND Pagan, there was no reason to adopt that stuff into Islam. In the Greek world Paganism had been eradicated pretty whole sale over the previous centuries, so anything coming out of the Greek world into Arabia was most likely going to be Christian. Though even the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin supposedly has it’s origins in some Pagan Gods like Apollo or something. If any Pagan Greek myths ended up in Islam they probably would have come via Christianity.
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #8 - July 08, 2013, 04:19 PM

    This does not explain stuff like the fear of painting and sculpting the human body.  Yes the Xians had successfully got rid of the gods, but the place was littered with nude statues for example.

    And where the Arabs conquered had tons and tons of this stuff.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #9 - July 08, 2013, 04:45 PM

    The nude statues were being torn down by Christian monks before Islam even existed. A lot of the nude statues from the Classical Era that survive today have their limbs, heads and penises removed. A lot of that was done by Christian monks.

    Nude statues came back into vogue during the Renaissance, which was a re-birth of the appreciation of classical arts and philosophy, but in the interim Medieval and Dark Ages, nude statues were not cool.
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #10 - July 08, 2013, 05:30 PM

    The nude  ..... lot of  nude .. ....Nude ....


    "Nude ...Nude..lot of Nude" ., Tonyt is trying to undress something., So on those words let me put bit of Yang Burz  Aka M.A.Hussain's  article here that undresses  early  Islam in a slightly different angle..

    Quote
     "Is Islam a failed Jewish Conspiracy?"

    Like religion, gossip tries to explain the origin of the things and events which people fail to comprehend.  It can also be an attempt to confuse people so that they might not understand  these rationally. One reason for abundance of anti-Jewish conspiracy theories on the internet fast emerging marketplace all kinds of gossips, is that Jews along with apostates, atheist,pagans, pigs and polytheists have been condemned in Quran in no uncertain words.  In Muslim world, once you discredit your political rival by exposing his Jewish connection, you have won half the battle. Hence Jews are behind everything evil in Muslim societies. Here I will present my conspiracy theory. Historically, Islam is the result of a failed conspiracy of Jews of Medina against Mecca pagans.

    Before I present my conspiracy theory, let me tell you what induced me to write this article. A year ago, I stumbled upon a paper written by Ihsan Yilmaz, “Was Rumi the Chief Architect of Islamism?"(1)The author argues against the misuse of the term Islamism and how this misuse makes “the first prophet, his companions and all observant Muslims” Islamists. In fact, there ares ubstantial reasons to call all those who follow Mohammad in the letter, and spirit as Islamists. When we examine Islam in its varied manifestations, we find something fundamentally wrong with Mohammad’s Islam that is exploited by some of its adherents, and that gives Islamists an edge over all other shades of Islam.
    Quote
    The problem with Islam is its mind-boggling diversity that does not reflect its principle of oneness but its disintegration, pragmatism and adaptation to local customs, including pagan and barbaric customs like female genital mutilation; recent adaptation is market capitalism. Islamization of capitalism is a recent trend in Muslim countries. It has become a fashion to put the word “Islamic”as a prefix to every product and process of capitalism, for example, Islamic finance, Islamic banking, Islamic fashion etc.Muslims fail to tell us what is Islamic in Islamic finance and banking. It is capitalism repacked.There is a need is to identify and deconstruct Medina Islam to confront Islamists and that has to be done on Mosque pulpit.


    ............Research articles, academic debates, papers, conferences, TV shows will not help to defeat Islamists or defend 98% of civil Muslims. Islamist constitutes only 1 % of the Muslim world and so do the moderates, progressive’s, feminists, etc.,and both use Islam for their political ends.A vast majority of Muslims does not follow Mohammad and can not be labeled as Islamists. Living as an economic man, they are Dr. JohnNash’s (father of game theory) Ummah. However, at some occasions 98% Muslims also turn to be bad Muslims under the influence 1% Islamists. This results in confusion in the minds of media men and non Muslims.  I am not so much worried about Islamism than the emergence of the vast growing middle class in Muslim societies. A person coming from middle class can become Marx, Hitler,Mussolini, and Al Hallaj, and this depends on the cultural milieu he imbibes and the period of history he lives in.As the counter cultures like Sufism, modernism and feminism are   marginalized in Muslimsocieties, there are more possibilities that Islamism maymutate intoneo-fascism; more so under economic crisis, underdevelopment of resources in thesesocieties and crisis ridden capitalist world order.

    I consider Islamism as a result of transition of Muslim societies into capitalist social relations. It will lose its force as new classes emerge and get embedded with the present-dayworld order at the local, national and international level.Now, let me indulge in little gossip. Islam is the result of a failed conspiracy of Jews of Medina against Mecca pagans.

    ...Jews helped Mohammad; they served him as scribes, helped him to understand Judaism and Christian traditions, and supported him in his struggle against Meccan pagans to strengthen monotheism. Had they opposed him and confronted him from the very beginning in Medina, Mohammad would not have been able to establish Muslim community. Later, Mohammad adopted all pagan custom she had vehemently opposed in Mecca. Jews were driven out of Medina, killed, disposed and enslaved by Mohammad.So Jews failed to promote monotheism in Meccan pagans.Islam has resulted in spiritual improvishment of Arabs, and they are still bogged in the morass of tribalism.

    Known for turning every catastrophe into an opportunity; Jews actively participated, contributed and benefited themselves in trade and commerce, science and technology during ancient globalization under Islam. However “The Zoroastrians (of the defeated Persian Empire), the Christians (of the defeated Eastern Roman Empire), and the Jews (who had been expelled by the Muslims) grieved for the old days. In their private counsel, these defeated elements had reached the conclusion that it was impossible to fight Muslims on the battlefield. Therefore, they resolved to sow the seed of discord among Muslims, using the model of the Jews of Yathrib.”(4)

    Later they created Shi'ism, Bhaiism, Wahahbism Sufism, etc.against Islam.(Cool(9)(12)(13)Jews are terrible people and can do anything. They created the concept of Tawheed and are destroying shrines of Muslim saints the world over. (2)It has been found that the grand father of Muhammad Ibn Abd Al Wahhab was, in fact, from Jewish origin in Turkey.(14)“The Zionist conspiracy is thought to have supported the "despotic'' rule of the Shah; fo rexample, soldiers who are supposed to have massacred "thousands" of innocent people on Black Friday (8 September 1978) are said to have been Israelis. Some people have argued that Israel supported the Islamic revolution in order to weaken its only potential rival for domination in the region by replacing the Shah with a "vulnerable and dependent Islamic regime.”(2)(13)Jews have created toys like Pokeman and Barbie doll to promote anti-Islamic behavior. Sheik Sadeq Abdallah bin Al-Majid interviewed by Al-Jazeera TV is reported to have said that vaccination of Muslim children is a Jewish conspiracy to harm Muslims.(16)(17)One percent American Jews are trying very hard to turn America into a communist state. “A Jewish population of exactly that percentage brought communism to Russia. The most murderous and anti-Christ system the world has ever known (having starved to death or slaughtered over 150 million) was overwhelmingly inspired and birthed by a tiny minority of Jews.”( 5)(7)(11)Jews haven't only crucified son of almighty God (who remained a salient spectator to the killing of his own innocent son) and tortured him brutally. Even the Bible is said to be a Jewish conspiracy. “Christians are deluded under a powerful spell. Christianity is nothing more than a vicious program, with the goals of”Forcing the Gentiles to submission.(6)(12)

    Let me sum up what we learnt from this gossip:

    Quote
    1. Jews are after Muslims, and Muslims are after the Jews.Except this article,Jews are behind everything critical of Islam.1. Whatever Jews did against Islam,did not work properly. May it be Sufism, Shiaism, Wahabism, Communism,Baha’ism and Zionism to name a few.

    2. Jews are at the root of religions, revolutions, chaos and anti-religious movements. They have been punished by God. The pogroms against Jews in the past are the divine punishment for their rebellion,

    3. They are terrible people and can do anything



    So all that I am copy/pasting for you as you are interested in the origins of Islam.. What is your opinion on that article dear Tonyt??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Koran and the Iliad
     Reply #11 - July 09, 2013, 09:46 AM

    Is this Islamic slaughter?

    Quote
    Once the men had prayed and flung the barley first they lifted back the heads of the victims , slit their throats, skinned them and carved away the meat from the thigh bones and wrapped them in fat, a double fold sliced clean and topped with strips of flesh, and they burned these on a cleft stick, peeled and dry, spitted the vitals, held them over Hephaestus' flames and once they'd charred the thighs and tasted the organs they cut the rest into pieces, pierced them with spits, roasted them to a turn and pulled them off the fire . The work done, the feast laid out they ate well and no man's hunger lacked a share of the banquet. When they had put aside their desire for food and drink, Nestor the old horseman spoke out first....


    Iliad 700 BCE

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »