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 Topic: Arabic speakers:Help please!

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  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     OP - May 28, 2013, 11:52 AM
    I am about to debate a Muslim who has been sending me shitloads of messages about the miraculous nature of the Quran. I am about to post some of the scientific errors in the Quran in response, the first being the infamous 18:86, then I was going to post 25:61. Obviously I don't know Arabic, but other posts on CEMB have confirmed that the 'scientifically inaccurate' translations of these verses is correct.

    However, I was also going to post 50:38. I am sure this has probably been asked before, but is the 'scientifically inaccurate' translation (Earth created in six days) or the 'science friendly' translation (Earth created in six 'periods') the correct interpretation? Could an Arabic speaker please clarify this for me?

  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #1 - May 28, 2013, 04:10 PM
    18:86. he is going to say that it simply 'appeared' to be setting in the muddy spring.
    for created in six days, even if it literally says days, 'day' can mean 'era'.

    You are going to have a hard time finding clear scientific errors because the quran never really says anything outright. In many cases, the charge of scientific bullshit in the quran relies on considering multiple verses in combination, and not because any one specific verse makes an outright bullshit claim. It never literally says "the earth is flat" for example, and because of this ambiguity, Muslims will always find a way to wriggle out of it.

    From my research, the most clear cut case of error is that all humanity descends from a single couple. The prophet Adam did not exist. The quran is wrong.
     




  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #2 - May 28, 2013, 05:21 PM
    What about 25:61?
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #3 - May 28, 2013, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on May 28, 2013, 04:10 PM
    18:86. he is going to say that it simply 'appeared' to be setting in the muddy spring.
    for created in six days, even if it literally says days, 'day' can mean 'era'.

    You are going to have a hard time finding clear scientific errors because the quran never really says anything outright. In many cases, the charge of scientific bullshit in the quran relies on considering multiple verses in combination, and not because any one specific verse makes an outright bullshit claim. It never literally says "the earth is flat" for example, and because of this ambiguity, Muslims will always find a way to wriggle out of it.

    From my research, the most clear cut case of error is that all humanity descends from a single couple. The prophet Adam did not exist. The quran is wrong.
     






    I don't understand? If the Arabic word literally means 'day', how can that mean 'era'.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #4 - May 28, 2013, 08:05 PM
    i dont know Arabic, but it is possible to interpret the English word 'day' as 'era' and its unlikely that the Arabic word can only mean a 24 hour period of time.

    It is easy to debate Muslims about there being scientific miracles in the quran. But to put forward a positive case of scientific error is a different ball game. The quran is too vague all over, and Muslims will hang on to any excuse to rescue it. This isnt some special property of the quran. It is a property of books in general, and religious books in particular. They can always be interpreted another way. That is why Adam is the best example I know. Muslims are pretty much forced to believe in a literal Adam. They cant consider it metaphor, or make up a new translation. They do have to believe that we all descend from a literal first couple.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #5 - May 28, 2013, 08:40 PM
    The Qur’an is pretty clear in its assertion that the earth was created before the stars and before the 7 heavens. (Surah Fussilat, verses 9-12 and Suratul Baqarah, verse 29)
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #6 - May 28, 2013, 08:46 PM
    My Muslim friend has come up with yet another defense of 18:86. I don't know what to make of it, since as far as I can see, he is using two different Arabic words here.
    Quote
    As for تغرب في عين (disappear in a murky water), the following points make are made quite clear.

    تغرب (taghrub) throughout the Glorious Quran means to disappear, or to cease to be seen. This is further proven in the Noble Verse :

    "....Nor is hidden (و ما يعزب) from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven.... (The Noble Quran, 10:61)"

    "The Unbelievers say, "Never to us will come the Hour": Say, "Nay! but most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you;- by Him Who knows the unseen,- from Whom is not hidden (لا يعزب) the least little atom in the heavens or on earth: Nor is there anything less than that, or greater, but is in the Record Perspicuous: (The Noble Quran, 34:3)"


    So تغرب (taghrub) here doesn't necessarily mean the sun is setting.

    It, again, rather means that the sun disappeared from Dhul-Qarnayn's naked eye, especially since the neighborhood was mountainous (18:93). As Dhul-Qarnayn was looking at the sun, he saw it disappearing inside or behind a murky body/pond/lake/sea of dark/murky water. And of course, if the sun were to literally set inside a pool of water, then it would have to rise back again from that location and set into another body of water, which the Glorious Quran makes no mention of, and then rise back again from that body of water and set again in Dhul-Qarnayn's body of water, and so on. This never happened, and nor did the Glorious Quran mention it. The sun simply does not bounce back and forth between the east and the west on earth, and nor does the moon. The Noble Verses also do not say that the Dhul-Qarnayn went to the east or the west of the earth. No east nor west were mentioned in any of the Noble Verses, and as I mentioned below, neither does the Glorious Quran mention that there are ends of the earth. On the contrary, the Glorious Quran, clearly and indisputably Declares that the earth is Spherical, Round, is Suspended and orbiting in Space, and is rotating around its own axle.

  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #7 - May 28, 2013, 08:53 PM
    Hassan destroyed the apologetics around the story of Thul-Qarnayn in an earlier post of his. You should try searching for it.

    In all honesty though, you are likely just wasting your time arguing with him. These people have already started off with the premise that Islam is true and will thus twist and contort whatever you give them to make it fit their pre-established conclusion.

    There is enough absolutely ridiculous nonsense throughout the Qur’an to make any rational person doubt it.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #8 - May 28, 2013, 08:59 PM
    BTW, your friend is using the wrong word above. The verse he quotes in 10:61 uses the word "Ya'zub" not "Yaghrib". They are two different words.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #9 - May 28, 2013, 09:02 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on May 28, 2013, 08:40 PM
    The Qur’an is pretty clear in its assertion that the earth was created before the stars and before the 7 heavens. (Surah Fussilat, verses 9-12 and Suratul Baqarah, verse 29)


    but it doesnt say " then he created the heaven"
    it says "he turned to the heaven when it was smoke"
    and to a muslim, that is the difference between scientific miracle and scientific bullshit

    so he already created the heaven. left it smoking, created the earth, and then resumed work on the smokey heavens.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #10 - May 28, 2013, 09:08 PM
    Hassan's post: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9871.msg253041#msg253041

    Quote
    so he already created the heaven. left it smoking, created the earth, and then resumed work on the smokey heavens.


    But even that is not true.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #11 - May 28, 2013, 09:11 PM
    It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven,  and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.
    Muhsin Khan
    He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #12 - May 28, 2013, 09:12 PM
    his entire argument rests on the following  claim

    Quote
    if the sun were to literally set inside a pool of water, then it would have to rise back again from that location and set into another body of water



    It simply isnt true. There are an infinite number of ways in which the sun can be believed to set in the sea, especially if you are ignorant, and you believe in magic.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #13 - May 28, 2013, 09:12 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on May 28, 2013, 09:11 PM
    It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven,  and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.
    Muhsin Khan
    He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.


    yeah so he created the heaven. then created the earth etc. then went back to the heaven and divided it into seven.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #14 - May 28, 2013, 09:16 PM
    lol Yeah but that is not what happened either. That interpretation does nothing to make it better.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #15 - May 28, 2013, 09:19 PM
     Time is a creation. Allah is the creator. The rules of the created do not apply to the creator. You kuffar are so arrogant. Allah can create the earth before, after, and at the same time as the stars, all at the same time, time and again, and in no time at all.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #16 - May 28, 2013, 09:22 PM
    Then those pesky mufassiroon always get in the way. Here is what Ibn Katheer had to say:

    Quote
    Mujahid commented on Allah's statement,

    ﴿هُوَ الَّذِى خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِى الاٌّرْضِ جَمِيعاً﴾
    (He it is Who created for you all that is on earth) "Allah created the earth before heaven, and when He created the earth, smoke burst out of it. This is why Allah said,

    ﴿ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَآءِ وَهِىَ دُخَانٌ﴾
    (Then He Istawa ila (turned towards) the heaven when it was smoke.) (41:11)

    ﴿فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَـوَاتٍ﴾
    (And made them seven heavens) means, one above the other, while the `seven earths' means, one below the other.''

    This Ayah testifies to the fact that the earth was created before heaven, as Allah has indicated in the Ayat in Surat As-Sajdah.

    Sahih Al-Bukhari records that when Ibn `Abbas was question about this matter, he said that the earth was created before heaven, and the earth was spread out only after the creation of the heaven. Several Tafsir scholars of old and recent times also said similarly, as we have elaborated on in the Tafsir of Surat An-Nazi`at (chapter 79). The result of that discussion is that the word Daha (translated above as "spread'') is mentioned and explained in Allah's statement,

    ﴿وَالاٌّرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَـهَا - أَخْرَجَ مِنْهَا مَآءَهَا وَمَرْعَـهَا - وَالْجِبَالَ أَرْسَـهَا ﴾
    (And the earth, after that, He spread it out. And brought forth therefrom its water and its pasture. And the mountains He has fixed firmly.) (79:30-32)

    Therefore, Daha means that the earth's treasures were brought to its surface after finishing the job of creating whatever will reside on earth and heaven. When the earth became Daha, the water burst out to its surface and the various types, colors, shapes and kinds of plants grew. The stars started rotating along with the planets that rotate around them. And Allah knows best.


  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #17 - May 28, 2013, 09:24 PM
    Ibn Kathir did not create himself. He cannot even create a fly. The words of the creator are clear and miraculous.

    But if you are still confused, you should ask a scholar like Dr. Zakir Naik, or check these proofs

    www.thequranisfuckingbrilliant.com
    www.hamzatzortzis.com
    www.whateveryousaidiswrong.com
    www.gay4allah.pk
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #18 - May 28, 2013, 09:28 PM
    Yeah, it’s funny how clear Allah is after science figures stuff out.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #19 - May 29, 2013, 06:31 AM
    I posted this response to him:
    Quote
    1)On the Contrary, 'Noor' and 'Muneer' do not mean 'reflected light'. Look at Surah 33, verse 46:
    'And as one who invites to God by His leave, and as a lamp spreading light.'

    Here is the same verse in Arabic:

    وَدَاعِيًا إِلَى ٱللَّهِ بِإِذْنِهِۦ وَسِرَاجًا مُّنِيرًا

    The translation of the last two words is 'SIRAJan MUNEERan'. (Meaning 'a light giving lamp'). SIRAJ was the word used to describe the Sun. It is used to describe Muhammad in the verse seen above. The metaphor SIRAJ (very bright lamp) is just a metaphor for great light. It has nothing to do with burning to produce light (the basic function of a lamp). ... it only refers to the great brighness of light. The Quran was making it clear that the Sun is a very bright light (so it can metaphorically be called a lamp/Siraj) The Sun is vastly brighter than the moon, so they used a distinguishing term like 'lamp', as opposed to the moon, which is just a light.

    Next, we go onto the Arabic word 'مُّنِيرًا' (transliteration:Muneer). You are claiming that this word means 'reflecting light'. However, it appears in 33:46, as 'a lamp spreading light'. Why would Muhammad be referred to as 'a light reflecting lamp'? The word 'Munir' simply means 'giving light/illuminating'. It appears that in most Arabic/English dictionaries, this word is down as 'illuminating'.

    2)I can't find any other translation of 'تغرب' apart from 'to set/go down' and the subject of the verb is "The sun" then the preposition "in" It is clearly saying he reached the place where the sun sets in a muddy spring. BTW, your friend is using the wrong word above. The verse you quote in 10:61 uses the word "Ya'zub" not "Yaghrib". They are two different words.


    I then got this response:
    Quote
    You haven't braught forward a single valid piece of evidence..you just bring quotes which have similar meanings and be very pessimistic,spreading light and reflecting light...are you honestly going to reject the truth of god because you are too ignorant about the context of words written 1400 years ago.
    And you are wrong, I've got a qualification in Arabic language and History as part of a extra curricular course and I think I know what those words mean.
    And you are picking the very nitty gritty words and phrases which you have found, which you can twist and make it sound like it is contradicting. Im not going to reject the truth because it says Spreading light and reflecting light...

    Also I think you are forgetting the whole scope here, there are absolutley loads of scientific evidence in the quran which you havent even mentioned yet, showing me that you already have a vested interest to deny anything anyway.

    Sorry but I don't know were this is going...
    I could bring down a whole lot of stuff which I could show you, but I dont want to waste my time, I thought you were actually going to have a good argument.
    You can't win an argument with an ignorant person.
    I hope that God helps you before the Day of Judgment, then you will see.

    If you still have any questions just ask

     He claims to be knowledgeable, but the fact that he didn't even answer my my points sums it up.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #20 - May 29, 2013, 07:04 AM
    I have a question for him:
    If it is true that he i knowledgeable, why did he feel the need to copy and paste the Anwering-Christianity website?

     
    Quote
    As Dhul-Qarnayn was looking at the sun, he saw it disappearing inside or behind a murky body/pond/lake/sea of dark/murky water.  And of course, as I mentioned below, if the sun were to literally set inside a pool of water, then it would have to rise back again from that location and set into another body of water, which the Glorious Quran makes no mention of, and then rise back again from that body of water and set again in Dhul-Qarnayn's body of water, and so on.  This never happened, and nor did the Glorious Quran mention it.  The sun simply does not bounce back and forth between the east and the west on earth, and nor does the moon.  The Noble Verses also do not say that the Dhul-Qarnayn went to the east or the west of the earth.  No east nor west were mentioned in any of the Noble Verses, and as I mentioned below, neither does the Glorious Quran mention that there are ends of the earth.  On the contrary, the Glorious Quran, as I also mentioned below, clearly and indisputably Declares that the earth is Spherical, Round, is Suspended and orbiting in Space, and is rotating around its own axle.


    http://www.answering-christianity.com/sunrise_sunset.htm

    I recognised the tosh in the last sentence last sentence. Particularly the word 'axle', when he means 'axis'.
    Anwering-christianity is as pathetic as dawah sites get. Massive amounts of stupidy and lies. Not even well presented bullshit. There isn't a single redeeming feature.

    Alternatively, I think you could trap him. I would declare that the quran doesn't even have any idea that the earth is expanding. The earth is not expanding, but the Answering-Christianity website thinks that the debunked 'expanding earth hypothesis' from about 1900 is modern science, and also claims this knowledge in the quran.

    Tell him that if the quran was scientific, at the very least it should be aware that the earth is expanding.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #21 - May 29, 2013, 01:44 PM
    Jaymac

    Don't waste your time on a pointless and sterile debate that dances around the possible meanings of words that have been yanked out of context ( literary, historical, sociological, cultural, theological, intertextual ) in every way possible so as to conform to our current state of scientific knowledge - a knowledge that somehow managed to elude 1300 years of Islamic thinkers, who, in spite of having an unassailable superiority in terms of access to source texts, advanced hermeneutics, mastery of arabic grammar and linguistics and an ever-burgeoning volume of quality tafseer, conspicuously failed to notice some quite basic facts about the natural order of things that are supposedly glaringly obvious in the text today.

    You can quite effectively shut it down by suggesting that your interlocutor go away and use his Quranic expertise to deduce something that currently remains unknown to science - the temperature of hell, or the formula for making a Jinn dematerialise.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #22 - May 29, 2013, 03:54 PM
    I have always wondered why it took Non-Muslim scientists discovering scientific information for the Muslim's to jump up and say 'HaHa, this was in the Quran!' and do a little victory dance. If it indeed was, then this scientific information should have been common knowledge in the Muslim world long before the Non-Muslim's discovery.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #23 - May 30, 2013, 07:09 AM
    I posted this in response to him:
    Quote
    'You haven't braught forward a single valid piece of evidence..you just bring quotes which have similar meanings and be very pessimistic,spreading light and reflecting light...are you honestly going to reject the truth of god because you are too ignorant about the context of words written 1400 years ago.'

    Please do not insult my intelligence. If I find evidence which proves what I suspect to be true, I will use it.

    'And you are wrong, I've got a qualification in Arabic language and History as part of a extra curricular course and I think I know what those words mean.'

    That is all well and good, but I do not just check translations and dictionaries. There is a man named Hassan Radwan,who used to TEACH arabic at an Islamic school. He has confirmed that the the 'scientifically inaccurate' interpretation of these verses are the correct interpretation.

    'You can't win an argument with an ignorant person.'
    That is true. I don't know why I am trying.

  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #24 - May 30, 2013, 02:56 PM
    Where are you engaging in this debate? By private email? or by forums / facebook?

    It sounds like this guy does not want to open his mind to alternative views, he cannot argue with you so he trying to get out and save face by saying it's a "waste of his time". There isn't much point in having a dialogue with people like that over private email. It is much better if those kinds of debates are on a public forum for other people to see, because that way other people get exposed to the weakness of his arguments and if you can't persuade him, maybe you can persuade someone else reading the discussion.

    For every one person that posts something online, there are usually about 100 others that will view the page and of those 100, at least 20 will read the discussion in detail.

    Plus the kinds of people that read stuff passively and don't bother to add their own comments are usually the types that have less extreme views and are more easily persuaded by rational arguments.

    That's whay it's always better to have these discussions in a public arena.

  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #25 - May 30, 2013, 03:58 PM
    It was on a Youtube PM message. After I posted the response in #23, he has not responded to me. I think that means I won by default.  Wink
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #26 - May 30, 2013, 04:14 PM
    Best to keep the discussion in the comments feed of the video where everyone can see it rather than by private message.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #27 - May 30, 2013, 05:15 PM
    Quote
    Best to keep the discussion in the comments feed of the video where everyone can see it rather than by private message.

    It was originally intended it to be an Email debate, but the guy opted for Youtube PM.

    One thing I wonder though, If this guy really had a 'qualification in Arabic language and History', then why did he not offer a genuine rebuttal to the points I made, rather than simply saying 'you are wrong'. Even I was capable of doing that, and I barely know a few words of Arabic.
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #28 - May 30, 2013, 06:14 PM
    Quote from: JayMac on May 30, 2013, 03:58 PM
    It was on a Youtube PM message. After I posted the response in #23, he has not responded to me. I think that means I won by default.  Wink

    well there are  no winners and no losers in these discussions/debates with these Islamfried brains. What all one can hope is for some impact.  Such discussions may put bit of light that will allow them to use their common sense with  these so called scriptures that were written by the people of cave times.  

    Any ways JayMac,  you should have asked  him to join cemb forum and read through some science folders such as this one .. plenty of videos/talks/posts  like this one

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vJayxpt482g

    so he will know at-least.,   what science means and how science works..  

    Huh!  what a god.,   allah/god is looking after all that  space that spans at least 70 or so billion light years and billions of planets in it...   and ..and  writes some silly books with stupid stuff..  

     crazy people
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Arabic speakers:Help please!
     Reply #29 - May 31, 2013, 10:00 AM
    This guy seems too arrogant to even bother with CEMB. Ironic. It is probably the only website which could wake him up.
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