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Theme Changer

 Topic: Jewish Plot

 (Read 6545 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Jewish Plot
     OP - February 26, 2013, 06:00 PM
    So, this is a theory I have been contemplating for a while and I wanted to get some other takes on it.

    It is common knowledge among Muslims that when Muhammad migrated to Madina, he had hoped to win over its native Jewish tribes to his new faith. The Jews, as the Muslims would also tell you, refused to recognize him as a prophet and join Islam. The Muslim account goes that the Jews knew of Muhammad’s truthfulness, but chose to reject him (and subsequently burn in hell eternally) out of their own pride and arrogance.  

     While I suspect their reasons for rejecting Muhammad may have been based more on sincere doubt than arrogance, I’m wondering if they may have tested the self proclaimed “Messenger of God” in ways that even Muslims do not notice.

    The Qur’an has several references  (3:78 18:22, etc) indicating that Muhammad used to ask the Jews questions and that they would attempt to mislead him with their answers.

    I am wondering if there are examples that survive up to the present day in which the Jews deliberately gave the prophet faulty information and he unwittingly included it into his religion. Having done so, the Jews would have known among themselves that he was not a true messenger of God.

    Here are three of the examples that I am thinking of:

    1.   Aashuraa/Yom Kippur/Passover:

     It is well known and accepted among Muslims that the practice of fasting the 10th day of the first month of the year (‘Aashuraa) was a Jewish practice that Muhammad adopted when he came to Madina.

    “Ibn Abbas narrates that Muhammad came to Madina and saw the Jews fasting on the day of ‘Ashoora’. He said, “What is this?” They said, “This is a good day, this is the day when Allah saved the Children of Israel from their enemy and Moosa fasted on this day.” He said, “We are closer to Moosa than you.” So he fasted on this day and told the people to fast.”
       
    The problem here is that while fasting on the day of Ashuraa would have been a jewish practice, the story they gave Muhammad did not match up. Passover is the festival celebrating the Hebrew escape from Egypt, while Yom Kippur is the fast of the ten days after the New Year, Roshashona. I wonder if the Jews deliberately mixed up the stories to see if Muhammad’s “God” would have directed him to the truth. When he unquestioningly adopted the practice with the story they gave him, they must have known he was a fraud.

    2.   Haman of Egypt or Persia?

    Haman is a figure that appears both in the Old Testament Book of Esther as well as in the Qur’an. He is an evil figure and an antagonist against the Jews in both scriptures. In the Old Testament, he lives in Persia and is a vizier of the Persian king. In the Qur’an, he lives in Egypt and is a vizier of the Pharaoh. Again, I wonder if the Jews would have deliberately mixed up the stories to see if Muhammad’s God would be savvy enough to know the truth. When Muhammad declared that his “revelations” told him that Haman was an Egyptian, the Jews would have known he was not divinely inspired.

    3.   Maryam, mother of Jesus or sister of Aaron?

    I know that Islamic apologists have done a lot to refute the claims of Muhammad’s ignorance here, but again, is it possible that the Jews led Muhammad to believe that Maryam the mother of Jesus and Maryam the sister of Aaron were the same person? This theory I feel is a little more far fetched than the first two, especially since Surah Maryam is considered a Makkan surah, but the premise is nonetheless plausible.


    I’d like to get you all’s thoughts on this.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #1 - February 26, 2013, 06:08 PM
    "Passover is the festival celebrating the Hebrew escape from Egypt"

    Not exactly. It celebrates the Jews being spared the loss of their firstborn. The escape came later. Smiley
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #2 - February 26, 2013, 06:17 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 26, 2013, 06:08 PM
    "Passover is the festival celebrating the Hebrew escape from Egypt"

    Not exactly. It celebrates the Jews being spared the loss of their firstborn. The escape came later. Smiley


    Eh, this is kinda true. Although It is all commonly viewed within the exodus story.

    I guess the point I'm making is that the exodus-related reason they gave him for celebrating Yom Kippur must have been a deliberate test.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #3 - February 26, 2013, 06:27 PM
    oh, hahahha!  this post is majorly juicy!  Love that you brought these points up!

    I think that Muhammed's interactions with the Jews of his time is utterly fascinating and they have a HUGE bearing on his revelations (you would have to be dumb as a rock not to notice that).  I am SOOO glad you brought up this topic, but I am walking out the door in a minute.

    Promise I will respond to it is soon as I have the chance to type!!!

    Love all this food for thought!  NOM NOM NOM!!!
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #4 - February 26, 2013, 06:42 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 26, 2013, 06:00 PM
    I am wondering if there are examples that survive up to the present day in which the Jews deliberately gave the prophet faulty information and he unwittingly included it into his religion. Having done so, the Jews would have known among themselves that he was not a true messenger of God.


    I love this idea so much.

    I always thought that there was something extra spicy about the calumny that Muhammad and the Quran lavishes on the Jews. They really seemed to have been the proverbial bee in his bonnet.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #5 - February 26, 2013, 07:02 PM
    Yeah, those Jews really irritated Muhammad with their superior knowledge of their own scripture.

    I remember reading somewhere that Surah 5:40-50 were revealed because the Jews brought and adultery case to Muhammad and wanted to see if he would stone adulterers in accordance with Old Testament law or set them free in accordance with what Jesus had done.

    This frustrated him so much that he ended up making some interesting concessions. He says that the people of the Torah should judge according to the Torah and the people of the Gospel should judge according to the Gospel.

    I'm really interested in the idea that they deliberately led him astray and he unwittingly took the bait.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #6 - February 26, 2013, 07:26 PM
    It just rings true, for some reason

    I mean, something really got under his skin about them.

    Its all speculation, but its speculation about a definite itch he had.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #7 - February 26, 2013, 09:11 PM
    That is awesome food for thought. XD Islam is based a lot of Hebrew mythology but all mixed up under the claim that Jews were doing it wrong. Strange since Christians acknowledge Hebrew stories nearly exactly as is written in the Torah but Islam... the last religion suspiciously does not and changed the names and stories. That is why Jews reject any notion of prophets in case they were full of shit.. such as Jesus.. and Muhammad. They only answer to the big man.. none of that mortal middle man prophet bullshit.
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #8 - February 26, 2013, 10:21 PM
    I suppose initially Muhammad thought his "revelation" confirmed previous scriptures (perhaps because of loony apocrypha imparted to him by wandering mystics / gnostic monks). "Hey, check your scriptures; I confirm them." But when the more learned Jews and Christians checked their scriptures they found evidence to the contrary. For starters, Christians believe that when Christ said [on the cross] "it is finished" he really meant it - Christ is "the beginning and the end". They were not expecting another prophet. And in the Gospel it says [twice I think] not to accept revelations from angels that contradict the Gospel (eg crucifixion), ["But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" Galatians 1:8]. As for the Jews, the messiah comes from the Davidic line (through Isaac, not Ishmael). Thus Muhammad fails the basic test in both camps. If he is to be judged based on the scriptures of the Ppl of the Book then he is a fraud. The Christians and Jews clearly recognised this.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #9 - February 26, 2013, 10:33 PM
    I never seen this from this angle HM

    You are  a GENIUS happymurtad

    Quote
    I wonder if the Jews deliberately mixed up the stories to see if Muhammad’s “God” would have directed him to the truth. When he unquestioningly adopted the practice with the story they gave him, they must have known he was a fraud.


    This might also explain the massive error in line 30 of al tauba when muhammad accuses the jews of saying uzair is the son of god.

    (slaps self on head) why didnt i think of that? finmad

    Great OP HM  Afro
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #10 - February 26, 2013, 11:32 PM
    Okay, I'm back.  Went to function tonight where people did dramatic readings of Yelp reviews.  Funniest stuff ever.

    Anywho, where to start?  So many good points already made here.  I think it is quite clear for the literature that I read over the years that Muhammed was pathologically obsessed with the Jews.  And no denying that at a certain point it turned into a Single White Female kind of thing.  First praising them endlessly in the Quran, but slowly starting to throw in the jabs when they didn't accept him, then full on slaughter of an entire Jewish clan.  I think he only gained, what, like two Jewish converts? ever which was that "bin Salam" fellow and then Saffiyah, who I don't count as a legit convert because she was a slave. 

    I mean, if you just stand back and look through some basic, psychological lenses, you can easily see a sort of neurosis form in him over the Jews.  He tried everything in his playbook to get them to convert.  I think his visions of grandeur started after meeting Bahira and it just kept snowballing from there.  He also knew a scribe, Warraqa, who he could have heard details from and started a loose framework for a jewish like religion that was "open" for all mankind.

    okay let me get back to HM's points:

    1) I had never heard that hadith and put two and two together before.  you are right!  the day of atonement is the fast day, no fasting occurs during passover.  reading it again, it actually sounds like a bit of a blatant ribbing towards Mo on the jews part.  wow

    2) I do believe that there are Muslims out there who are trying to put forth that "Haman" in the Quran is NOT the same Haman in Esther and that the quranic haman was in fact just one of pharaohs henchmen.  which is attested to by their claim that the name "haman" supposedly was discovered in hieroglyphics.  hmmm, wonder what Zahi Hawas would say about that.  I will say that if Muhammed was a true "biter" and a stalker of Jewish society, he would have EASILY overheard the name Haman bantered about, and LOUDLY.  In fact Purim, which just took place on Sunday is the holiday where the story of esther is read outloud and the pinnacle of fun comes when Hamans name is said...cuz everytime it is recited people are to make loud crazy noises to "block" his name from being uttered.  If mo every heard this ceremony taking place....certainly this name would have made a mark on his mind!  And also worthy of note: right around the corner from PURIM is PESACH (passover).  so, that is an easy way to explain how the haman story crossed with the Egypt one!  they literally piggyback each other on the calendar.

    3)  not to sure about that one, but I wouldn't doubt that it was an easy thing to screw up.  heck, arent there like two different lineages for christ in the new testemant.  sh** of jesus's OWN PEOPLE cant even get it right, what can we expect from the likes of our poor lil Mo?

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #11 - February 27, 2013, 12:55 AM
    Really interesting stuff guys popcorn

    Random quote that I never forgot:

    Quote
    The people who lived in the village were Hindus. I did not like this, though I had foreseen it. I have always got along better with Muslims, though Islam, I know, is the poorest of the religions that spring from Judaism.


    Borges, Blue Tigers
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #12 - February 27, 2013, 03:38 AM
    This thread really isn't helping the Jews shake off their reputation or being deceitful and manipulative Cheesy

    More seriously, though, I love this. There's also verse 30 from sura 9.

    "The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?"

    Could be that the Madina Jews told him about Uzair. Pwned.
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #13 - February 27, 2013, 04:17 AM
    The story of the cow? In deuteronomy ( see my vid for exact reference) it relates the story of the Israelites finding a murdered person and everyone denied it so god told them to sacrifice a cow and wash hands in the blood then swear they didn't do it. In Quran it says slap the dead body with a piece of the sacrificed cow and he will come back to life and reveal the truth.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #14 - February 27, 2013, 04:25 AM
    Say, "O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful."... grin12
    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #15 - February 27, 2013, 05:06 AM

    Loving the contributions here  guys Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #16 - February 27, 2013, 11:20 AM
    I'm thinking about the Hadith where the Jews supposedly said that Gabriel was their enemy and the subsequent verses in Suratul Baqarah. I always wondered why a Jew would say that, but if you think about it in the context that they were trying to trip Muhammad up, it makes sense. This is obviously pure speculation, but perhaps they were waiting to see if Muhammad would also curse Gabriel, thus proving that he was not a real prophet. He did not fall for that trap and continued to speak well of Gabriel, but he did seem to believe that the Jews really considered Gabriel to be an evil figure--which is of course wrong.

    I could be completely off with this theory, but it is becoming very interesting to look at Qur'anic verses in this light. It might explain away a lot of the "contradictions" between the Qur'an and the OT.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #17 - February 27, 2013, 11:23 AM
    @ Hassan. Yes, your video about the story of the cow was great. It was clearly taken from the story you referenced in the OT, but Muhammad managed to get the details and the point of the story very wrong.

    @ The Uzair reference. Looking at the context of the verse, i.e. declaring war on the Jews, I'm wondering if Muhammad just needed a reason to accuse them of shirk to put them on the same level as the pagan Arabs?
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #18 - February 27, 2013, 12:52 PM
    Very interesting thread. It is also concievable that the Jews of Medina themselves did not know that much about their own religion and were making mistakes themselves. After all these were not Hebrews, they were supposedly ethnic Arabs, speaking Arabic in a predominantly illiterate society.

    The way the story of Dhul Qarnayn from the Quran evolved out of the real deeds of Alexander the Great is one example of how these stories can change so easily from the original accounts.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #19 - February 27, 2013, 01:04 PM
    Should someone tell the believing Muslims that Islam is a Jewish prank? I've always loved Jewish humour the most Grin

    In all seriousness, like Tony said, it's more likely that they made mistakes about what was in their scriptures, at least the commoners probably did. Similar to now when the majority of believing Muslims, Christians, etc don't know what all is in the scriptures to which they claim idntification. Scholars of the time were probably more aware of what their scriptures actually contained.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #20 - February 27, 2013, 01:08 PM
    I hear what you are saying TonyT.  I think it is important to remember that the Judaism we see today is NOT the Judaism from 2,000 years , 1,000 years ago, heck even 200 years ago.  Going back far enough through history we can see epic changes that took place, esp after the destruction of the first two temples.  Judaism had to shift, change and cope in order to survive.,  If you think of it, honestly, Judaism barely resembles the original religion it once was.  They used to have High Priests, blood sacrifices, burnt offerings, etc (all of which, funny enough, sound  pagan to me).  It's as if the original Hebrews were just doing what everyone else of that time was doing, but instead they just wore more clothing and whittled their God down to one, just to set them apart from the rest and preserve their identity.  


    There have always been splinter Jewish groups throughout history.  It surely didn't start with the Reform movement of the past 2 centuries.  Take the Essenes for example, they had their own esoteric beliefs, but yet they stemmed from some sort of interpretation that made their beliefs some what plausible.  I am interested in knowing about what the ancient practitioners of that religion were like...what they did, believed, how they acted.  I am sure as archeologists are able to dig further and further, the answers will be far more different from our previous assumptions.  
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #21 - February 27, 2013, 01:09 PM
    Perhaps it is a combination of the two. I can't imagine any Jews thinking that Yom Kippur celebrated the exodus or that Gabriel was an enemy to the Hebrews. Whatever the truth is, someone somewhere managed to give Mo so seriously flawed info.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #22 - February 27, 2013, 01:10 PM
    Really loving this thread. What Naerys posted is very interesting  yes Mo totally messed up there  lipsrsealed

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #23 - February 27, 2013, 01:11 PM
    ohh great points Tabby...
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #24 - February 27, 2013, 01:19 PM
    take these guys for example.....it really reminds me of the joke "get two Jews in a room together and you'll have 3 opinions"

    http://www.karaite-korner.org/history.shtml  I actually have a lot of respect for these people, although I do not find the Torah all that appealing as a religious text.  For me the bad in it outweighs the good.  Same with the Quran. 

    (and, of course, their kissing, Abrahamic cousins:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism)

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #25 - February 27, 2013, 01:19 PM
    The jews of medina were indeed a combine of a mix of arabs who intermarried with jewish refugees centuries before muhammad, and arab clans who converted to judaism wholesale, it seems the qur'an refers to local jews as hadoo with alitheena alwys before hadoo as opposed to yahood, being used as a general term for all jews. With that being said i believe it's a mixture of the jews own ignorance of their faith as well as what Happymurtad proposes here.

    After all it would be the learned jews that would present challenges to muhammad about his prophethood.

    Hm says
    Quote
    @ The Uzair reference. Looking at the context of the verse, i.e. declaring war on the Jews, I'm wondering if Muhammad just needed a reason to accuse them of shirk to put them on the same level as the pagan Arabs?


    Actually, in verse 30 of tauba i thought muhammad was equating the jews with the christians by accusing them of calling uzair the son of god? just as christians call jesus the son of god.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #26 - February 27, 2013, 01:36 PM
    According to Ibn Ishaq, it was the Jews of Medina, specifically the Banu Qurayza tribe, yep the same tribe that Muhammad would eventually slaughter, that started the belief that the Kaaba was a sacred Jewish sanctuary.

    About 100-200 years before Muhammad, when some king of Yemen converted to Judaism, the Qurayza Jews told that King that Abraham had established the Kaaba at Mecca and the King should take over Mecca and re-establish the Kaaba as a sacred Jewish sanctuary. In fact this king was the first person to ever put a cloth over the Kaaba.

    This is clearly not an Orthodox Jewish belief. It seems to me that what is going on here is the Medina Jews wanted power and influence in Arabian society, what better way to do that than to stake a Jewish claim on one of Arabia's most sacred sites.

    This kind of reminds me of how Christians sometimes claim that their town has some tomb or former home of some major saint, i.e. the so-called "House of the Virgin Mary in Ephesus".
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #27 - February 27, 2013, 01:43 PM
    That makes sense tonyt.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #28 - February 27, 2013, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: k-man on February 27, 2013, 01:19 PM

    Hm says
    Actually, in verse 30 of tauba i thought muhammad was equating the jews with the christians by accusing them of calling uzair the son of god? just as christians call jesus the son of god.



    Right, but the context of Surah tawbah is war on the pagans. He lumps the christiains in there for their obvious “shirk” regarding jesus. He then needs something against the jews, hence the whole Uzair thing IMO. The fact that the ayah ends in “Qaatalahummulah,” (roughly, “May “God slay them!”) is telling to me.

    I think Tony is on to something as well. This is the kind of stuff that really interests me about the emergence of Islam. I wish there were more dated texts that we could use to reference. The Islamic texts such as the hadith and  Ibn Ishaaq are obviously from many years later.
  • Jewish Plot
     Reply #29 - February 27, 2013, 02:45 PM
    You know what is really sad and embarrassing is that I have actually witnessed the "Jews worship Ezra" bit being brought up by Muslims during Interfaith sessions with Jews.  They have used that Quranic verse to argue that Jews are not completely monotheistic.   Cheesy

    You can imagine how well that went over on them.

    Oy.  To the Vey.
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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