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Theme Changer

 Topic: The story of Saffiyah

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  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #60 - February 04, 2013, 07:36 AM
    Quote from: Z-Bo on February 03, 2013, 11:56 PM
    WTF?!

    I almost had a spasm reading that.

    You believe the mass kidnapping, enslavement and transportation of Africans, who were "savagely beaten and forced to work until they collapsed", was a noble decision made on the part of your "forefathers"?

    Amarite, did I just read that?








     idiot2


    Cheesy Oh lawd. HM is African-American. You missed the sarcasm in that post.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #61 - February 04, 2013, 07:38 AM
    I can see we're going to have to explain that post (HM's) in short sentences.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #62 - February 04, 2013, 07:47 AM
    Might as well do it. Someone will have to. Tongue

    Z-Bo: listen up. grin12

    You were trying to justify a lot of the nasty stuff Mohammed did, basically on the grounds that "Well dude, he had to do that coz it was for a really cool empire-building purpose n shit".

    HappyMurtad was using the example of American slavery to take the piss out of your position, by pointing out that it was just as morally bankrupt as the position of American slave owners.

    The idea was to get you to think about your arguments and re-examine them. How are you going with that?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #63 - February 04, 2013, 08:39 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 04, 2013, 07:47 AM
    Might as well do it. Someone will have to. Tongue

    Z-Bo: listen up. grin12

    You were trying to justify a lot of the nasty stuff Mohammed did, basically on the grounds that Well dude, he had to do that coz it was for a really cool empire-building purpose n shit".


    heh? That's not what i said. That's nothing close to what I said, you're completely off.

    Quote
    HappyMurtad was using the example of American slavery to take the piss out of your position, by pointing out that it was just as morally bankrupt as the position of American slave owners.


    what? how was HappyMurtads example of the atlantic slave trade related to my position on Muhammad being a child abuser etc ? that was an entirely different topic and i see no relation to it in that post whats soever.  but obviously i must be too stupid to make the connection so could you plz explain it to me.


    Quote
    The idea was to get you to think about your arguments and re-examine them. How are you going with that?


    1. loool how do you know this? what on earth in that post did you read to make you believe it was a Master of plan of HappyMurtad to try get me convinced muhammad was a pedo?

    2. i've already changed my position.
    The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.

    William Arthur Ward
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #64 - February 04, 2013, 08:42 AM
    Ok, I give up. Cheesy
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #65 - February 04, 2013, 08:46 AM
    lol, what else could you say?



    The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.

    William Arthur Ward
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #66 - February 04, 2013, 09:39 AM
    Wow, I have actually never heard of this story or much of the stories of the Prophet after he conquered Mecca.

    This is surreal. He doesn't even remotely seem like a Prophet in this light. He seems like a war mongering General hell bent on religious world domination.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #67 - February 04, 2013, 02:23 PM
    Nice. Cheesy guess I need a sarcasm disclaimer on my next posts.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #68 - February 04, 2013, 05:32 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 04, 2013, 07:47 AM
    Z-Bo: listen up. grin12

    You were trying to justify a lot of the nasty stuff Mohammed did, basically on the grounds that "Well dude, he had to do that coz it was for a really cool empire-building purpose n shit".
     


    Well, it was rokomo saying that stuff so I can see how Z-Bo may have missed it.

    Z-Bo, see rokomo's posts in this thread to (hopefully) understand the point HM was trying to make.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #69 - March 07, 2013, 04:44 PM
    Does anyone have any references to hadiths where it talked about torturing Saffiya's former husband by the muslims to find out where the treasure was? The only thing I can find is that Ibn Ishaq wrote about it but many of his contemporaries didnt consider him a good source.
    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #70 - March 07, 2013, 05:04 PM
    The Sirah of Ibn Ishaq is one of the earlier sirahs, so a lot of the latter work is based on his. I'm not sure of any hadith that recounts the story. The following is from Ar-Raheeq Al Makhtoom, which also uses Ibn Ishaq as a source:
    Quote
    In the same context, Safiyah, whose husband Kinanah bin Abi Al-Huqaiq was killed for treachery,
    was taken as a captive and brought along with other prisoners of war. After the permission of the
    Prophet (Peace be upon him) was sought, Dihyah Al-Kalbi chose one of them and she happened to
    be Safiyah. The other Muslims, however, advised that Safiyah, being the daughter of the chief of
    Bani Quraiza and Bani Nadir, should be married to the Prophet (Peace be upon him), who agreed to
    their opinion, invited her to Islam, freed and took her as wife on her embracing Islam. The wedding
    feast consisted of dates and fat, and was held on his way back to Madinah at a spot called Sadd As-
    Sahba’.

  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #71 - March 07, 2013, 05:21 PM
    Never heard of the story until now. Oh my god. How the hell is this a love story? This is just depressing to hear... AND SOME MUSLIMS DEFEND THAT SHIT? I don't know what to write..
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #72 - March 07, 2013, 05:32 PM
    Quote
    The rest of Khaibar also fell to the Muslims. Allâh cast fear into the hearts of the people of Fadak, a village standing to the north of Khaibar, and they hastened to ask for peace, and be allowed to leave in safety, and give up their wealth in return for that. The Prophet (Peace be upon him) entered into an agreement with them similar to the previous one with the people of Khaib. Fadak was exclusively the Prophet’s because neither Muslim cavalry nor camelry were involved in fight thereby.No sooner had the Prophet (Peace be upon him) discharged the affair of Khaibar than he started a fresh move towards Wadi Al-Qura, another Jewish colony in Arabia. He mobilized his forces and divided them into three regiments with four banners entrusted to Sa‘d bin ‘Ubada, Al-Hubab bin Mundhir, ‘Abbad bin Bishr and Sahl bin Haneef. Prior to fighting, he invited the Jews to embrace Islam but all his words and exhortations fell on deaf ears. Eleven of the Jews were killed one after another and with each one newly killed, a fresh call was extended inviting those people to profess the new faith. Fighting went on ceaselessly for approximately two days and resulted in full surrender of the Jews. Their land was conquered, and a lot of booty fell in the hands of the Muslims.
    The Prophet (Peace be upon him) stayed in Wadi Al-Qura for four days, distributed the booty among the Muslim fighters and reached an agreement with the Jews similar to that of Khaibar.
    The Jews of Taima’, hearing beforehand about the successive victories of the Muslim army and thedefeats that their brethren, the Jews, had sustained, showed no resistance when the Prophet (Peace be upon him) reached their habitation. On the contrary, they took the initiative and offered to sign a reconciliation treaty to the effect that they receive protection but pay tribute in return. Having achieved his objective and subdued the Jews completely, the Prophet (Peace be upon him) made his way back home and arrived in Madinah in late Safar or early Rabi‘ Al-Awwal 7 A.H.


    --The Sealed Nectar

    How is this anything other than a warlord?
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #73 - March 07, 2013, 06:19 PM
    ^

    Between " The Sealed Nectar" by Ar-Raheeq-ul-Makhtum  and "Sirat Rasoul Allah" by Ibn Ishaq


    which one is more authoritative in Sunni Islamic theology and which one do you think might be closer to what actually happened without taking out the nasty bits.


    I want to know because I need to get my islamic theology knowledge pretty indepth for when I come out in a few years.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #74 - March 07, 2013, 06:27 PM
    The sealed nectar is based on earlier works. It's a summarized, edited, and dumbed down, version of accounts from Kutb as-sittah, Ibn Ishaaq, Tabari, Ibn Hisham, etc…Stories and accounts overlap within those sources.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #75 - March 07, 2013, 07:21 PM
    I have never read the Sealed Nectar, it is a Twentieth Century Sirah, not a Classical work. But it was awarded some Sirah prize by the Saudi government for the best English language Sirah, also Islamic apologists always recommend it to people who they believe do not know much about early Islam. When I debate with Muslims they often recommend this book to me, they assume that I have not read anything, and it is obvious that they themselves have never read Ibn Ishaq because if they had then they would at least know that I am not a novice on the topic.

    Why would someone recommend the Sealed Nectar to someone that is quoting Ibn Ishaq in a debate? The information in the Sealed Nectar comes from Ibn Ishaq!  Huh?

    I would recommend you read this:

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Life-Muhammad-I-Ishaq/dp/0196360331/

    It is the English translation of Ibn Ishaq by Guillaume.

    The actual work of Ibn Ishaq is lost, the surviving version we have is from Ibn Hisham, who copied it but removed the parts that he considered might be "offensive to Muslims". So for example the part about the torture of Saffiya's husband and the brutal method of executing Umm Qirfa, Ibn Hisham took these out. The only reason we know about these incidents today is because Al-Tabari recorded them in his history writings and quoted Ibn Ishaq.

    So what Guillaume did is translate Ibn Hisham but also put back in the parts from Al-Tabari that we know Ibn Hisham removed. He lets the reader know which parts of the English translation are from Ibn Hisham and which parts are from Tabari by putting a little "T" in the margin wherever he incorporated the parts from Tabari. By doing this he has partially restored a lost work, of course there may be other parts of Ibn Ishaq that were removed by Ibn Hisham and Al-Tabari did not quote them, and these are lost forever.

    So anyway I recommend Ibn Ishaq and not the Sealed Nectar, I have not read the Sealed Nectar but I think it is essentially a dumbed down and sugar coated version of Ibn Ishaq.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #76 - March 07, 2013, 08:07 PM
    Would this PDF of Ibn Ishaq be accurate ?

    http://archive.org/details/Sirat-lifeOfMuhammadBy-ibnIshaq
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #77 - March 07, 2013, 09:17 PM
    The Sealed Nectar is to the Sirah what a modern “Introduction to Philosophy” would be to reading the works of Plato. It’s summarized, abridged, and dumbed down.

    It is actually not very sanitized. It references many of the events that are mentioned in Ibn Ishaaq as it relates to military raids, campaigns and expeditions. (Some of the interesting stuff regarding revelation is left out, however.)

    As many Muslims (and ex-Muslims and converts) are only familiar with the major battles (and even those are often portrayed as acts of self defense) the Sealed Nectar is a good, well organized starting point for someone that wants to see what Muhammad was really like. 
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #78 - March 07, 2013, 09:19 PM
    @TDR: That PDF is the abridged version. Which is fine if you are mostly interested in Muhammad himself. But I highly recommend the full length version. It has these introductory chapters which talk about Pre-Islamic Arabia, and the various kings and tribes that came to the Hejaz and the history of the Kaaba in the pre-Islamic era, to me this stuff is the most fascinating part of Ibn Ishaq, because most of the rest of it about Muhammad I had already read about somewhere online at some point. So the only really new and interesting stuff was the detailed stuff at the beginning about the Pre-Islamic era.

    I would buy a copy of the full version, it's only $30 on Amazon. Plus when that book arrives in the mail, your parents will be so impressed that you are reading such a huge book all about the Life of Muhammad!  cool2 It's about 700 pages long and weighs a tonne!
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #79 - March 07, 2013, 09:28 PM
    The full non-abridged version of Ibn Ishaaq..that's pretty hard core tony.  Afro
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #80 - March 07, 2013, 10:26 PM
    Quote from: Tonyt on March 07, 2013, 09:19 PM
    @TDR: That PDF is the abridged version. Which is fine if you are mostly interested in Muhammad himself. But I highly recommend the full length version. It has these introductory chapters which talk about Pre-Islamic Arabia, and the various kings and tribes that came to the Hejaz and the history of the Kaaba in the pre-Islamic era, to me this stuff is the most fascinating part of Ibn Ishaq, because most of the rest of it about Muhammad I had already read about somewhere online at some point. So the only really new and interesting stuff was the detailed stuff at the beginning about the Pre-Islamic era.

    I would buy a copy of the full version, it's only $30 on Amazon. Plus when that book arrives in the mail, your parents will be so impressed that you are reading such a huge book all about the Life of Muhammad!  cool2 It's about 700 pages long and weighs a tonne!

     


    I'd read it if I had the time. I'll do some reading over Ramadan which comes in the summer vacation  cuz they'll be forcing me to read religious stuff then anyways.. 

    Sadly I have a 700 page Statistics book to get through for uni....   

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #81 - March 07, 2013, 10:30 PM
    It's so frustrating! There are so many religious people who read the Qur'an, quote hadiths, go to Islamic events but they are blind to what Islam really is. Even if they aren't that religious, I'm pretty sure almost every Muslim knows the story of Aishah. How can they justify the "prophet" having sex with a nine year old girl??
    free |frē| - Not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #82 - March 07, 2013, 10:33 PM
    ^

    My mum just found out a few weeks ago that Muhammad consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was six.

    She was like WHAT?!?

    But then after that she accepted there was noting wrong with it since it was done by "allah's messenger" 

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #83 - March 07, 2013, 10:36 PM
    It must really be brainwashing.. I can't think of any other reason.
    free |frē| - Not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #84 - March 07, 2013, 10:40 PM
    ^

    My mother would rather commit suicide before even contemplating about doubting her faith.

    I am serious no exaggeration.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #85 - March 07, 2013, 10:45 PM
    And all because of a power-hungry paedophile.
    free |frē| - Not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #86 - March 07, 2013, 10:50 PM
    I blame my mom's fanatic brother and father for the brainwashing.

    The grandparents on my mums side were the type of people that would murder their own children if it meant saving their honor.

     
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #87 - March 08, 2013, 06:52 AM
    Thank You guys for the books and can we please start documenting where we find questionable material so we can pass it around as a reference when we have points to make?

    I know this will come in handy for a lot of people if they can quote and have stuff like this on their computer.  Especially, for me I think one of my parents is opening up to the idea that this might all be bs. 

    We could develop categories like war, slavery, rape etc and mention where it occurs in the quran and the hadiths.   

    Let me know if anyone wants to participate we can send messages and create sticky threads on here, if they don't already exist.
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #88 - March 08, 2013, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 07, 2013, 10:26 PM
    I'd read it if I had the time. I'll do some reading over Ramadan which comes in the summer vacation  cuz they'll be forcing me to read religious stuff then anyways.. 

    Sadly I have a 700 page Statistics book to get through for uni....   


    Yep, stick to your school work mate.  Afro

    To me this stuff is really interesting because it's exotic and stuff. But for you, growing up with Islam, I can see why you would be sick of learning about it.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #89 - March 08, 2013, 02:51 PM
    Quote from: Xiis on March 08, 2013, 06:52 AM
    Thank You guys for the books and can we please start documenting where we find questionable material so we can pass it around as a reference when we have points to make?

    I know this will come in handy for a lot of people if they can quote and have stuff like this on their computer.  Especially, for me I think one of my parents is opening up to the idea that this might all be bs. 

    We could develop categories like war, slavery, rape etc and mention where it occurs in the quran and the hadiths.   

    Let me know if anyone wants to participate we can send messages and create sticky threads on here, if they don't already exist.


    I started doing this and putting references in an excel table. And we even discussed your idea of a collaborative effort on this forum. But then Oz pointed out that most of the work is already done on WikiIslam.net. I.e. you can just type in stuff like "slavery" on there and it will give you all the references you need. Just don't link to wikiIslam itself in a debate because that is known to be anti-Islamic, instead go to wikiIslam, find the references, and link directly to them on Sunnah.com.
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