Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Today at 01:21 PM

Paris murder
Yesterday at 09:00 PM

The essence of the facts
Yesterday at 12:38 PM

What music are you listen...
October 29, 2020, 07:19 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
October 29, 2020, 04:25 PM

the lost road
October 28, 2020, 12:30 AM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
October 27, 2020, 06:56 PM

8 killed, more than 110 i...
October 27, 2020, 04:21 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
October 27, 2020, 09:44 AM

Donald Trump wants to ban...
October 25, 2020, 11:07 AM

JW Apostasy film on BBC
October 24, 2020, 09:16 PM

Hitchens....Dawkins....Ha...
October 22, 2020, 12:57 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: The story of Saffiyah

 (Read 16848 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #30 - January 31, 2013, 03:39 AM

    You have to understand Pepe, it was a love story!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xg3vE8Ie_E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #31 - January 31, 2013, 10:36 PM

    The battle was probably retaliation and not conquest. Also Muhammad did this for building a country, because the Arab tribes were largely fragmented. Especially in the rural regions. There were some municipal governments like cities. Muhammad did this to make a civilized state. Every country has been made because of conquest. Tell me one country that has been made without conquest.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #32 - January 31, 2013, 10:39 PM

    The battle was probably retaliation and not conquest. Also Muhammad did this for building a country, because the Arab tribes were largely fragmented. Especially in the rural regions. There were some municipal governments like cities. Muhammad did this to make a civilized state. Every country has been made because of conquest. Tell me one country that has been made without conquest.


    Yep. All true. Which only proves that Muhammad was a warlord of his time, and not a "perfect" or infallible or divinely inspired man.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #33 - January 31, 2013, 11:53 PM

    Just reread a very brief account of this story in Karren Armstrong's "Muhammad Prophet for our times" on reading this book and reviewing some of the more contraversial elements of his life story, I think the book would be more aptly titled "Karen Armstrong Appologist for our times".
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #34 - February 01, 2013, 12:12 AM

    Re above post, that should read "Karen Armstrong Apologist for our times" (Facepalms self), that will teach me to criticise such scholarly endeaver.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #35 - February 01, 2013, 12:19 AM

    I've read her book on Buddha and on the Axial age, and you know what? They are good books. But her apologia for Muhammad is just.......there are not enough hands in the world to proffer their palms to put in her face for it.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #36 - February 01, 2013, 02:23 PM

    how is conquest or retaliation of another tribe a bad thing? How does this disapprove Islam?
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #37 - February 01, 2013, 02:43 PM

    how is conquest or retaliation of another tribe a bad thing? How does this disapprove Islam?


    Well it doesn't disprove Islam because conquest and slavery and killing innocents seems to be ok in Islam. You asked though how could conquest be a bad thing? Seriously you have to ask that? How can killing all males of a tribe that have reached puberty be a bad thing? How can torturing a man to find their gold be a bad thing? How can having sex with a woman who's husband and father you have just killed be a bad thing?

    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #38 - February 01, 2013, 03:27 PM

    @Rokomo

    Conquest only looks good and necessary to the people who won OR whose families are now benefiting from it. What about Israel they use the same damn excuse you're using 'retaliation' to justify oppressing Palestinians. They(The Zionist) think it's necessary to save their people from extremist who want to destroy their ENTIRE nation of 6 million Jewish people who are under constant threat from suicide attacks or rockets. I'm not going to get into the debate of who is right and wrong BUT my point is, Israel is using the same excuse Muslims use for Muhammad: it was necessary, they were attacking us, we're are going to build a great nation and spread our religion, our people, those people are barbaric in their customs ours is better. Aha... conquest and 'retaliation' ain't so glamorous now if you're on the receiving end. Oh and guess what according to the non-Arab world Israel is the civilized country in a region of instability, so they get to do whatever they want with the support of America, Europe, India and many others.
    So does that make it Right?

    And think that a 'divine man' which this entire religion is based off of participated in that. Muhammad used his influence to dominate people AGAINST THEIR WILL, and his followers were free to collect the spoils, including slaves and women to their sexual pleasures and needs. That is sick and wrong. Women who had to watch their husbands be killed and in their grief had to be raped by their captors the same night. Think about that. That is what Islam's prophet participated in with Saffiyah (And according to the hadiths she was ONLY spared because of her status and beauty, think of the other women who were not so 'lucky'). It is not denied but instead excuses are made based on faith and God's Will even though 'intelligent' people KNOW deep in their hearts that Muhammad's wars were violent, brutal and unforgiving. People abandon their entire culture, customs, religions passed on from generation to generation for thousands of years and submit to this new growing belief of Allah, new religion, new dress, new customs or face death. And Muslims see that as saving their souls, so they were better off. You have to be a crazy person to see that as a justification.


    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #39 - February 01, 2013, 03:48 PM

    how is conquest or retaliation of another tribe a bad thing? How does this disapprove Islam?


    You are absolutely right; the ends do have a way of justifying the means. Conquest is generally a good, admirable thing when looked upon on a long enough timescale. Look at the Americas, for instance. Could you imagine what these lands would be like if the European settlers had not arrived? It was necessary to displace the great Native American tribes and annihilate the ones that showed resistance in order to make way for this great republic. If that did not happen, we would still be living under the savage, superstitious beliefs of the primitive native peoples who had inhabited this continent for millennia. Our pioneering forefathers were correct for appropriating their land, driving their primary food source to the brink of extinction, and wiping out their ancient way of life. How else could we have become one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all? Trail of Tears?   More like the Trail of Cheers.

      People also seem to get so upset over the transatlantic slave trade. What they fail to realize is that without four hundred years of free labor on the backs of kidnapped Africans who were savagely beaten and forced to work until they collapsed, America could never have become the superpower it is today. We are the richest nation on earth precisely because our forefathers were able to make those difficult but noble decisions. It is exactly what God would have wanted. Isn’t that obvious? I can see why Muhammad did all that stuff now.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #40 - February 01, 2013, 03:58 PM

    Lol murtad  Cheesy

    The big difference, is America at least doesn't make excuses. I have never heard a sane person say that it was necessary, everyone feels bad. And in a poor attempt to make up, gave Native Americans special rights, and blacks get access to minority programs and other stuff. Heck we're even campaigning against slavery. No Muslim feels any kind of remorse about what Muhammad did and Islam has no intention of making any kind of amends to the people who had suffered under it. Difference, one side makes excuses, and one side realizes it was wrong despite the 'benefits' and guess what. We're doing just fine without slavery what's Muhammad's excuse.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #41 - February 01, 2013, 04:45 PM

    This thread just keeps getting better and better Smiley

    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #42 - February 01, 2013, 05:27 PM

    This hadith is wrong because it goes against the Quran, since Islam forbids conquest unless it is for retaliation. Also maybe there is more to the story we do not know about.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #43 - February 01, 2013, 05:30 PM

    Tell me about how it goes against the quran? Im curious.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #44 - February 01, 2013, 05:31 PM

    Hi rokomo,

    If you wouldn't mind speculating a bit, what more could there be to the story that would justify it?

    Also, could you please reference where in the Qur'an conquest is forbidden?

    Thanks!

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #45 - February 01, 2013, 05:32 PM

    Before you do that though, I just want to get on the record that we are calling ahadith that appear in Sahih Bukhari--The second most revered sunni source--wrong. This is a great start.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #46 - February 01, 2013, 05:38 PM

    I recently learned that Shias do not consider Bukhari to be reliable. I don't recall the details of why, but I was surprised.

    But this story must appear in more than just the Sahih Bukhari, since I'm pretty sure it is a well known and accepted account of how Mohammed came to marry Saffiyah.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #47 - February 01, 2013, 06:05 PM

    Ayat for thought:

    Surah 33, verses 26 and 27

    26. And those of the people of the Scripture (Jews) who backed them, Allah brought them down from their forts and cast terror into their hearts, (so that) a group (of them) you killed, and a group (of them) you made captives.
    27. And He caused you to inherit their lands, and their houses, and their riches, and a land which you had not trodden (before). And Allah is Able to do all things.

    Surah 59, verses 1-3

    1. Whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth glorifies Allah. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.
    2. He it is Who drove out the disbelievers among the people of the Scripture (i.e. the Jews of the tribe of Bani An-Nadir) from their homes at the first gathering. You did not think that they would get out. And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But Allah's (Torment) reached them from a place whereof they expected it not, and He cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their own dwellings with their own hands and the hands of the believers. Then take admonition, O you with eyes (to see).

    Surah 59 Verses 5-7
    5. What you (O Muslims) cut down of the palm-trees (of the enemy), or you left them standing on their stems, it was by Leave of Allah, and in order that He might disgrace the Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).
    6. And what Allah gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad  ) from them, for which you made no expedition with either cavalry or camelry. But Allah gives power to His Messengers over whomsoever He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things.
    7. What Allah gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad  ) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad  ), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad  ), the orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad  ) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #48 - February 01, 2013, 06:34 PM

    I've never come across this story of saffiyah before, I don't know how I missed it in any study of hadiths. I was aware of the killing of a tribe but this addition really is quite disturbing. As for Muslims who would try to romantacise and rationalise the treatment of Saffiyah, really need to understand that Mohammed is considered an example to all mankind, meaning Muslims would have to agree that this was the best way to handle the situation, as he was the best/perfect of men. I personally would not have the heart to inflict such traversties against saffiyah and there are alot more humane methods to resolve the issue he had with the tribe. Does this make me a better man than mohammed?. While I was a Muslim, there were stories in Hadith, I use to feel guilty that I would not react the way Mohammed did in those situations and there were better ways to solve it, he was a better man than me why couldnt I accept that he would do these things.

    This hadith is wrong because it goes against the Quran, since Islam forbids conquest unless it is for retaliation. Also maybe there is more to the story we do not know about.


    See what your doing here. You are reinterpreting history how you see fit which is perfectly fine but if you want to assert fact, you have to present contrary evidence. The overwhelming evidence suggest that a historical figure named Mohammed destroyed a tribe and enslaved the best looking woman for himself. Is it plausible that this event happended in the way I described? yes why? because there is independant evidence that this kind of event was the norm in the time. So in terms of best guess and thats all we have implies that this event may have happened the way hadiths have laid out, though specific details may well could be propaganda but thats the problem with hearsay.

    I know you will consider the Quran as the alternate source, however this relies on you providing  valid evidence that mohammed actually practised what he preached and did not go about chopping and changing on a whim (like hadiths and the sira would suggest), and I would not be surprised if you struggled with this, it is very difficult and close to impossible.

    BTW being the norm does not mean something is morally right.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #49 - February 01, 2013, 06:43 PM

    But this story must appear in more than just the Sahih Bukhari, since I'm pretty sure it is a well known and accepted account of how Mohammed came to marry Saffiyah.


    The story is also in Ibn Ishaq.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #50 - February 01, 2013, 06:47 PM

    The big difference, is America at least doesn't make excuses. I have never heard a sane person say that it was necessary, everyone feels bad. And in a poor attempt to make up, gave Native Americans special rights, and blacks get access to minority programs and other stuff. Heck we're even campaigning against slavery. No Muslim feels any kind of remorse about what Muhammad did and Islam has no intention of making any kind of amends to the people who had suffered under it. Difference, one side makes excuses, and one side realizes it was wrong despite the 'benefits' and guess what. We're doing just fine without slavery what's Muhammad's excuse.


    Well there is a lot more at stake for Muslims. It is not like it is some random country that just so happens to be Muslim that did these bad things. It is the messenger of God himself. So how can they possibly admit that these were terrible things when they were perpetrated by Muhammad himself? To do so would be tantamount to apostasy and that is a pretty dangerous place to go in most Muslim countries.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #51 - February 01, 2013, 08:34 PM

     popcorn


    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #52 - February 02, 2013, 02:23 AM

    lol at the Taylor swift video. What if it is a love story...
    Koran states in Chapter 2, Verse 190: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors."
    Muslims believe the prophet Mohammed received these revelations directly from God some 1400 years ago. It was at a time when he and other Muslims were being driven from their homes, persecuted, and killed. But although the Koran advocates self-defense, its most prevalent message is one of peace and brotherly love.
    Chapter 5, Verse 32: "f anyone slew a person—unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land—it would be as if he slew the whole people. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people."
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran_2.html
    7. What Allah gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad  ) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad  ), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad  ), the orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad  ) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.
    seems to me like a take from the poor and give to the rich. Muhammad was Robbin hood of the time...
    2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.
    I though see the point that it was bad that he killed all those innocent civilians. I don't know why he would do something like that.  wacko
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #53 - February 02, 2013, 02:30 AM

    Self defense huh? Can you tell me why the battle of badr started? It was because Muhammad tried to raid an UNARMED CARAVAN. He authorized other raids before that. Even if they were at war with the Makkans (which we have no proof that they were before badr) the unarmed caravans were a civilian, business enterprise. I know it is hard to accept that the rasool salallahu alayhi wa sallam was not as peaceful and noble as you were taught. It was hard for me too. But I recommend studying his biography a little more to get an idea of what kind of a man he really was. The English book The Sealed Nectar is a great start. Read it and see if you can still respect him.
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #54 - February 03, 2013, 05:06 PM

    Am I right in assuming that Mo and his companions, and all the other hundreds of female slaves, were also love stories?
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #55 - February 03, 2013, 05:44 PM

    The story about saffiyah and similar stories enraged me right after I became an ex muslim.

    Now I just view it the same way as I view other ancient myths like Zeus so the anger is gone now.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #56 - February 03, 2013, 11:56 PM

    You are absolutely right; the ends do have a way of justifying the means. Conquest is generally a good, admirable thing when looked upon on a long enough timescale. Look at the Americas, for instance. Could you imagine what these lands would be like if the European settlers had not arrived? It was necessary to displace the great Native American tribes and annihilate the ones that showed resistance in order to make way for this great republic. If that did not happen, we would still be living under the savage, superstitious beliefs of the primitive native peoples who had inhabited this continent for millennia. Our pioneering forefathers were correct for appropriating their land, driving their primary food source to the brink of extinction, and wiping out their ancient way of life. How else could we have become one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all? Trail of Tears?   More like the Trail of Cheers.

      People also seem to get so upset over the transatlantic slave trade. What they fail to realize is that without four hundred years of free labor on the backs of kidnapped Africans who were savagely beaten and forced to work until they collapsed, America could never have become the superpower it is today. We are the richest nation on earth precisely because our forefathers were able to make those difficult but noble decisions. It is exactly what God would have wanted. Isn’t that obvious? I can see why Muhammad did all that stuff now.



    WTF?!

    I almost had a spasm reading that.

    You believe the mass kidnapping, enslavement and transportation of Africans, who were "savagely beaten and forced to work until they collapsed", was a noble decision made on the part of your "forefathers"?

    Amarite, did I just read that?








     idiot2

    The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.

    William Arthur Ward
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #57 - February 03, 2013, 11:58 PM

     Cheesy You have obviously missed the point.

    Oh and btw, HM"s forefathers were those Africans.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #58 - February 04, 2013, 12:03 AM

    WTF?!

    I almost had a spasm reading that.

    You believe the mass kidnapping, enslavement and transportation of Africans, who were "savagely beaten and forced to work until they collapsed", was a noble decision made on the part of your "forefathers"?

    Amarite, did I just read that?







     idiot2

     Cheesy
    Read it out loud again and get back to us.
     

    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • The story of Saffiyah
     Reply #59 - February 04, 2013, 12:07 AM

    WTF?!

    I almost had a spasm reading that.

    You believe the mass kidnapping, enslavement and transportation of Africans, who were "savagely beaten and forced to work until they collapsed", was a noble decision made on the part of your "forefathers"?

    Amarite, did I just read that?








     idiot2


  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »