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 Topic: Natural Selection and Islam

 (Read 1969 times)
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  • Natural Selection and Islam
     OP - January 29, 2013, 05:20 PM

    What kind of effect do you think that Islamic practices will have on evolution by natural selection for Muslim communities?

    Will practices like Niqab and arranged marriages weaken selective pressures for physical attraction?

    Does the penalty of death for apostasy put selective pressures on Muslims to be less inquisitive and individualistic, i.e. curious, individualistic, free-thinkers will get killed off and those sorts of genes will not get passed on to the next generation?

    Or are none of these practices strong enough to have any affect in the long-run?

    Of course if you are a Muslim and you do not believe in evolution in the first place then you do not need to worry about this stuff....
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #1 - January 29, 2013, 05:26 PM

    I chuckled out loud when I read this. I’m not biologist, but I’m not sure that natural selection works in quite the same way that you described. Even if it did, not all curious people in the Muslim world get executed, and it’s not only ugly women who wear veils. There will be plenty of “curiosity” and “attractiveness” genes to go around.
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #2 - January 29, 2013, 05:41 PM

    Well we all conditioned to conform to societal norms through the process of natural selection. In fact all animals are conditioned such to various degrees. Which is why wolves hunt in packs and lions hunt alone (not sure if that is true about lions, but you get the picture)

    All human societies put selective pressure on certain societal traits to enforce social cohesion. Up until a few hundred years ago in Europe you could also be killed for blasphemy or apostasy and in Ancient Greece Socrates was executed for blaspheming the ancient Greek gods.

    Islam has only been around for just over 1,000 years, not long enough to have any noticable difference. But hypothetically, if Islam were to survive for say 100s of thousands of years, and there is 0% breeding between Muslims and non-Muslims (per Islam's own laws) then we should expect some level of "speciation" to occur.

    it’s not only ugly women who wear veils.


    That's not the point. If during the courtship process, men are unable to see the face of their prospective spouse, then physical beauty for women will no longer be a selective pressure and will gradually deteriorate. Of course this assumes that all women would wear face veils and never show their face to suitors, which I am sure is not the case even in the most conservative Islamic countries. But even in a situation where women only show their face sometimes will still have the effect of lessening this selective pressure and over many many thousands of years this will have an impact.
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #3 - January 29, 2013, 06:21 PM

    Too short a timescale. Islam will be old news in a few hundred years, maybe even a few decades. It cannot survive the tide of scientific advancement. It can't even hold its own in the ambiguity of young sciences or the speculative unknown. It can't even stand against basic logic. No matter what, it will always be wrong. Its errors will always be visible to fresh eyes. It can only flourish in the darkness of ignorance.

    And it's still a relatively young mythos. Empires will rise and fall, religions and superstitions will come and go, deluded or predatory men claiming to speak on behalf of higher cosmic powers will live and die and pass into folklore, over and over again before there is any real change in the human being. There is barely any perceivable change in thousands of years, and there are only tiny incremental changes from ancestral species that go back even further. There is only noticeable difference in our thought structures and brain memes, which can be learned and unlearned. Islam is a fad. A trend of the week. A t-shirt and matching pencil case, at best.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #4 - January 29, 2013, 08:16 PM

    Muslims are weakening their own gene pool by forcing women to veil themselves, we know this affects a woman's ability to absorb vitamin D which not only affects her own body but it deprives her developing fetus from receiving the necessary nutrients it requires to develop properly strong bones and teeth. Lack of sunlight also affects mood.

    Through out history humans have evolved to seek out and choose the best looking mates to pass on their genes.
    External physical appearances indicated health to our ancestors, healthy looking mates will continue to be selected based on their physical appearances with or without a veil, it's survival of the fittest or most attractive in this case.

    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #5 - January 29, 2013, 08:39 PM

    Doesn't milk contain vitamin D? I'm pretty sure they add it to milk here in the UK at least...

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #6 - January 29, 2013, 08:43 PM

    Plenty of things contain vitamin D, but the ability of the human body to absorb it is connected to sunlight.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #7 - January 29, 2013, 08:48 PM

    Damn it.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #8 - January 29, 2013, 09:14 PM

    Plenty of things contain vitamin D, but the ability of the human body to absorb it is connected to sunlight.

    Yup.
    Without the benefit of sunlight absorption through the skin many Muslims are risking physically weaker future generations.
    Supplements and vitamins will not replace what nature naturally gave us to combat vitamin D deficiencies.

    Women will be blamed of course for being bad ovens, but science is here to shine a light on the truth.

    Mental illness is known to be hereditary as well, depression and mood disorders will be passed on to future generations as a consequence of the restrictive and oppressive lifestyle that Islam imposes on it's adherents.

    Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness.
    ―Erica Jong
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #9 - January 29, 2013, 11:10 PM

    Muslims are weakening their own gene pool by forcing women to veil themselves, we know this affects a woman's ability to absorb vitamin D which not only affects her own body but it deprives her developing fetus from receiving the necessary nutrients it requires to develop properly strong bones and teeth. Lack of sunlight also affects mood.

    Right, but does that mean there will be permanent hereditary change? I mean, an undernourished baby isn't necessarily a mutated baby.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #10 - January 29, 2013, 11:28 PM

    that would lead to the conclusion that muslims will evolve paler skin. It would be equivalent to moving to a darker place further from the equator.
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #11 - January 29, 2013, 11:29 PM

    cousin marriages.  not cool
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #12 - January 30, 2013, 06:54 AM

    So Saudis will develop paler skin?

    This is not reeeeeeally relevant but kinda....Australian Aboriginals in rural communities have ridiculously higher levels of heart disease and other diseases compared to everyone else (since they had no access to media and had no concept of dieting etc).
    When social workers took fashion magazines into the communities, the younger generation, especially girls, got really self conscious and started watching what they eat/drink and there is a cultural shift among young Aboriginals because of the outside influences.

    I don't imagine Muslims are very open to cultural influences from "the outside" but some influence is better than none. I know that in my family, even if the government made a law tomorrow that everyone should be naked, my parents will still make us wear hijab, and wear it well. lol

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #13 - January 30, 2013, 10:59 PM

    Empires will rise and fall, religions and superstitions will come and go, deluded or predatory men claiming to speak on behalf of higher cosmic powers will live and die and pass into folklore, over and over again before there is any real change in the human being. There is barely any perceivable change in thousands of years, and there are only tiny incremental changes from ancestral species that go back even further.

    With the advent of the internet and the exponential rate of scientific discovery, do you think the future of this pattern will be short-lived?

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #14 - January 30, 2013, 11:06 PM

    Muslims are weakening their own gene pool by forcing women to veil themselves, we know this affects a woman's ability to absorb vitamin D which not only affects her own body but it deprives her developing fetus from receiving the necessary nutrients it requires to develop properly strong bones and teeth. Lack of sunlight also affects mood.

    Right, but does that mean there will be permanent hereditary change? I mean, an undernourished baby isn't necessarily a mutated baby.

    From what I understand of natural selection, such a situation would not alter or weaken a gene pool nor create mutated babies. Rather, women who cover fully would be weaker during pregnancy and their children would be undernourished, decreasing their chance of survival compared to the children of women who don't cover fully. Eventually, with a lower survival rate, they would become a smaller and smaller percent of the population, until there is no one left following the practice of covering.

    However I doubt it is likely to happen, since modern medicine allows us to compensate for otherwise detrimental lifestyles.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #15 - January 30, 2013, 11:18 PM

    With the advent of the internet and the exponential rate of scientific discovery, do you think the future of this pattern will be short-lived?

    I think unless the population growth slows down or is curbed by some event, the internet won't make much difference to religion and superstition. The internet as a knowledge base and teaching tool is redundant if there are billions of people who can't afford it or can't access it. And overpopulation means poverty, disease pandemics, conflict, crime, desperation - fertile ground for preachers and fanaticism.

    There's also the very real possibility of a future where access to knowledge and tech is controlled. Police State is not too far fetched in even some of the more progressive nations. We already see pushback from places like Pakistan where certain sites are banned if information there doesn't suit the established narrative. And places like North Korea where there is a media and information blindspot.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #16 - January 30, 2013, 11:55 PM

    It seems to me the internet has already made a difference to religion and superstition, but you are right about this:
    The internet as a knowledge base and teaching tool is redundant if there are billions of people who can't afford it or can't access it.

    That's already a problem, but I recently learned of at least one organization that is tackling it. I made a thread about it: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22990.0

    Quote
    There's also the very real possibility of a future where access to knowledge and tech is controlled. Police State is not too far fetched in even some of the more progressive nations. We already see pushback from places like Pakistan where certain sites are banned if information there doesn't suit the established narrative. And places like North Korea where there is a media and information blindspot.

    Hmm, yes I didn't consider that, and I could see that becoming more of a widespread reality.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Natural Selection and Islam
     Reply #17 - February 04, 2013, 01:13 AM

    What kind of effect do you think that Islamic practices will have on evolution by natural selection for Muslim communities?

    Will practices like Niqab and arranged marriages weaken selective pressures for physical attraction?

    Does the penalty of death for apostasy put selective pressures on Muslims to be less inquisitive and individualistic, i.e. curious, individualistic, free-thinkers will get killed off and those sorts of genes will not get passed on to the next generation?

    Or are none of these practices strong enough to have any affect in the long-run?

    Of course if you are a Muslim and you do not believe in evolution in the first place then you do not need to worry about this stuff....


    Come on, really? There is next to no selective pressure. All individuals in the population are breeding.  Very few humans pick partners based SOLELY on physical appearance.

    Rational thought isn't due to some gene only a few people in an entire population possess.

    Yup.
    Without the benefit of sunlight absorption through the skin many Muslims are risking physically weaker future generations.
    Supplements and vitamins will not replace what nature naturally gave us to combat vitamin D deficiencies.

    Women will be blamed of course for being bad ovens, but science is here to shine a light on the truth.

    Mental illness is known to be hereditary as well, depression and mood disorders will be passed on to future generations as a consequence of the restrictive and oppressive lifestyle that Islam imposes on it's adherents.


    Acquired characteristics are not passed down through generations. This is completely contrary to evolutionary theory.

    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
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