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Theme Changer

 Topic: HELLO!

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  • HELLO!
     Reply #30 - January 07, 2013, 09:57 PM
    so, to summarize your point, it could just be pure coincidence? and yeah humans were the ones who made the order of the verses after his death. the verses are not by actual order of revelation, unless if someone argues that God already knew that this would be hte order ended up. But i think your argument is more plausible
  • HELLO!
     Reply #31 - January 07, 2013, 09:59 PM
    Could you seriously imagine standing before “Allah” on judgement day and having him come at you with some nonsense like that? “Well Kutta, I know that my book contained loads and loads of scientific flaws, historical inaccuracies, fairytale style foolishness, and lots of other internal contradictions…. And I know it could all come off as completely misogynistic, chauvinistic, sadistic, and down right absurd at times, you know, with all the talk about men being able to beat their wives and people in hell being burned and beaten for eternity and all that…I can see how that might seem a little off putting, but if you set all that crazy stuff aside, you should have noticed the MATHEMATICAL MIRACLES!! HOW COULD YOU MISS THAT?? Now go to hell, to abide therein eternally, roasting, burning, and screaming in agony for ever! Muhuhuwahahahahahahaha!”
  • HELLO!
     Reply #32 - January 07, 2013, 09:59 PM
    OK, my mistake, it turns out that there is an Islamic Calendar that calculates the years at a different length. There are two Islamic Calendars (The Tabular Islamic Calendar and the Solar Hijri Calendar). My previous calculation was based on the Solar Hijri Calendar (assuming the same year lenth) The Tabular one does not have the same length of years.

    According to wiki, the moon landing occured on 20 July 1969. Even using the Tabular calendar the date of that is 1389, not 1390:

    http://www.islamicfinder.org/dateConversion.php?mode=ger-hij&day=20&month=7&year=1969&date_result=1

  • HELLO!
     Reply #33 - January 07, 2013, 10:15 PM
    Thanks TonyT; I think you've cleared the "days" miracle for me. I didn't read your previous posts in this thread. I heard it from Yuskel (big time Turkish Quranist) IIRC and I couldn't be arsed reading the whole damn Quran and verifying it myself! I assumed the days/months thing was genuine because he was pushing it so ardently, as if it was airtight. Other than that (which caught my attention recently, as in post-apostasy) I've never been into Quranic miracles; I always saw it as nonsense, even when I was Muslim. Ooh, and thanks for the links Allat.
    Quote from: musivore on January 07, 2013, 09:36 PM
    Al-Alethia: STEP AWAY FROM THAT CREVICE!! You're way too precious and bright to be thinking of rejoining the dark-side. Stay strong girl  piggy

    Aww 001_wub thanks musivore. For you, I'll remain a member of the dark side Afro I actually do sometimes think I might end up returning to Islam someday. Maybe this is really all just a "phase" and being a Muslim might actually be easier in the grand scheme of things. I sometimes think "I'm only 18. I could just be stupid and wrong about this, after all older and more intelligent people believe", that sorta thing. Like I have this attitude of "you're just a dumb kid" and you might see the light when you're older and smarter. That kinda scares me because I've reached a point where I don't want Islam to be true, lol.
  • HELLO!
     Reply #34 - January 07, 2013, 10:19 PM
    Yeah then I guess they started counting after the first verse which talks about the splitting moon miracle. And happy murtad you are right I can't imagine that but at the same time as evil as He seems, I keep having a fear that what if an evil god is just behind everything? I am sorry if I am annoying you guys thougjh
  • HELLO!
     Reply #35 - January 07, 2013, 11:19 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on January 07, 2013, 09:59 PM
    Could you seriously imagine standing before “Allah” on judgement day and having him come at you with some nonsense like that? “Well Kutta, I know that my book contained loads and loads of scientific flaws, historical inaccuracies, fairytale style foolishness, and lots of other internal contradictions…. And I know it could all come off as completely misogynistic, chauvinistic, sadistic, and down right absurd at times, you know, with all the talk about men being able to beat their wives and people in hell being burned and beaten for eternity and all that…I can see how that might seem a little off putting, but if you set all that crazy stuff aside, you should have noticed the MATHEMATICAL MIRACLES!! HOW COULD YOU MISS THAT?? Now go to hell, to abide therein eternally, roasting, burning, and screaming in agony for ever! Muhuhuwahahahahahahaha!”


     Smiley Smiley That's a really good way to put it Mr Happy Smiley

    Quote from: Al-Alethia on January 07, 2013, 10:15 PM
    I actually do sometimes think I might end up returning to Islam someday. Maybe this is really all just a "phase" and being a Muslim might actually be easier in the grand scheme of things. I sometimes think "I'm only 18. I could just be stupid and wrong about this, after all older and more intelligent people believe", that sorta thing. Like I have this attitude of "you're just a dumb kid" and you might see the light when you're older and smarter. That kinda scares me because I've reached a point where I don't want Islam to be true, lol.

    If you did return, it'd be kinda sad. Most of us wouldn't try to hold you back too much because your happiness and mental well-being are the most important things: and if Islam does provides you with those things and more, then good luck to you... But if you value freedom and equality and open-mindedness and liberation and science and basic human decency to one another (as I think you do, from what little I’ve read of yours already), then please stick with us kid?

    Besides, they may have their really clever people that make you personally feel insecure and immature about your beliefs, but I doubt very much if those clever, older people are even half as brave and as inquisitive as you have proven to be already, by walking away from Islam.  And please try not to get too dazzled by their clever people? Remember, for each of their clever believers, there’s probably five brilliant people on this side. Just look at this forum; there can’t be too many Muslims out there that are much cleverer than the likes of Billy, Ishina, Prince Spinoza, Hassan, Allat, HappyMurtard and Yezeeveezeevee? If you need people to look up to, and I doubt you will need that for much longer judging by your obvious intelligence, then let these brilliantly perfected, statuesque stallions be your inspiration?

    Anyways, forgive me if I patronised you: I’ve seen a few people return in my time, and you were starting to sound worryingly like one of them 
    Hi
  • HELLO!
     Reply #36 - January 08, 2013, 02:14 AM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on January 07, 2013, 10:15 PM
    being a Muslim might actually be easier in the grand scheme of things.

    It's easier to be a middle manager in the public sector than a musician, inventor, entrepreneur. Easier not to think for yourself or dream. Easier not to fall in love.
  • HELLO!
     Reply #37 - January 08, 2013, 03:53 AM
    Welcome kutta!

    Interesting thread popcorn

    Even if there were 10 or 20 numerical "miracles"/coincidences in the Quran, it's no excuse to drag humanity back to the 7th century.  victory If the sky opened up and God's fist was shaking and his voice bellowing, well then I guess we'd all shit our pants and die, khalas. But it just shows how much smarter and more humane we are compared to the sadistic Abrahamic god.
    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • HELLO!
     Reply #38 - January 08, 2013, 08:03 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on January 07, 2013, 09:59 PM
    Could you seriously imagine standing before “Allah” on judgement day and having him come at you with some nonsense like that? “Well Kutta, I know that my book contained loads and loads of scientific flaws, historical inaccuracies, fairytale style foolishness, and lots of other internal contradictions…. And I know it could all come off as completely misogynistic, chauvinistic, sadistic, and down right absurd at times, you know, with all the talk about men being able to beat their wives and people in hell being burned and beaten for eternity and all that…I can see how that might seem a little off putting, but if you set all that crazy stuff aside, you should have noticed the MATHEMATICAL MIRACLES!! HOW COULD YOU MISS THAT?? Now go to hell, to abide therein eternally, roasting, burning, and screaming in agony for ever! Muhuhuwahahahahahahaha!”

    This is perfect; that's an awesome way of putting it.
  • HELLO!
     Reply #39 - January 08, 2013, 08:38 AM
    @musivore
    I didn't feel patronized at all; thanks for the advice and kind words. It's very much appreciated.
    People have gone back?Shocked I didn't think that was possible. I remember a member here that went by chepea who used to allude to reverting

    I'm quite far from returning to Islam to be honest so there's no need to fear for my soul; it's just crazy stuff I think when my thoughts wander too far. You know like how sometimes I wonder if we were created by an alien master race that runs everything behind the scenes. I have a wild imagination and spend way too much time in my own head; that's where all the weirdness comes from. 

    I actually don't really think I can ever fully believe in Allah and Islam again, given all I know about it; it's about as plausible as the aliens theory; the doubts are fleeting and really mild *most* of the time. I know I'm not dumb or arrogant and I made my decision after much research and introspection but teens aren't known for their excellent decision-making skills and so I do sometimes think/fear "I'll learn something new that'll bring back my faith!" 


    This thread, you, TonyT, Allat and happymurtad have actually really helped with the numerical miracles BS and the whole "intelligent people believe" business. There are plenty of intelligent people here, far more intelligent than most of the Muslims I know, some here are even a lot more knowledgeable in Islam than the Muslims I know. I guess you know your doubts are unfounded when all it takes is an Internet thread to alleviate them. Once again, thnkyu



  • HELLO!
     Reply #40 - January 08, 2013, 08:46 AM
    Quote from: David on January 08, 2013, 02:14 AM
    It's easier to be a middle manager in the public sector than a musician, inventor, entrepreneur. Easier not to think for yourself or dream. Easier not to fall in love.

    That's very true David. The easier path isn't always the best or most rewarding; I can clearly see that…but it's the easier path, it can be tantalizingly attractive to take.

    I'm so sorry for hijacking your thread kutta Embarrassed
  • HELLO!
     Reply #41 - January 08, 2013, 11:14 AM
    I remember reading the Quran and thinking 'gee 1390 verses... if I take the number of verses here & translate them into a different calendar system... let me see... son of a gun!!... that's the moon landing..." [an easy way to end this conversation is to proclaim you don't believe the moon landing took place in 1969... mwahaha... American conspiracy theory] Why is Allah so cryptic? His eternal book is all out of order. Everything is jumbled. He expects you to translate information across different systems, mix-and-match. Allah's name should be "Oh, Cryptic One". The Qur'an: miracles for the cryptic soul.

    By the way, I remember a Muslim telling me there's a hadith that predicted youtube (something about "east and west" meeting simultaneously - obviously this means youtube  Huh?).
  • HELLO!
     Reply #42 - January 08, 2013, 01:24 PM
    Quote from: kutta on January 07, 2013, 10:19 PM
    Yeah then I guess they started counting after the first verse which talks about the splitting moon miracle.


    Ah, OK, this is the verse about splitting the moon. So why is the "numerical miracle" about landing on the moon? Surely for it to really be a prophecy, it should say something about landing on the moon, not splitting it.

    And to begin with, the Quranic statement that the moon was split, and the Islamic belief, based on hadiths, that it was Muhammad who split the moon, is an absolutely fantastic claim with no evidence to support it.

    Furthermore there is evidence that this specific ayat about splitting the moon was plagiarised from the Pre-Islamic Arabian poet, Imru'u Al-Qays. Muslims claim of course, that it is the other way around, that the poem is a plagriarism from the Quran. But because Imru'u Al-Qays lived before the Quran was written, they have to argue that someone else stole it from the Quran and then attributed it to Imru'u Al-Qays. This is certainly possible, but their argument is not that convincing, here is the Islamic refutation: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_split_poem_lie.htm.

    So basically the numerical miracle rests on an ayat that is a mythology claim about something that never happened and may have been plagiarised from a Pagan poet.

    Now let me ask you this, which of these would impress you more:

    1) Allah had said plainly in his Quran that Neil Armstrong would be the first human being to walk on the moon and provide a date when it would happen.

    2) Allah makes up a verse about splitting the moon, not landing on it, and then sets things in motion so that human beings would order the Quran in such a way that they would place this ayat 1390 verses from the end of the Quran, which is almost the same number of years between Muhammad's Hijra and the first landing on the moon. But also sets things in motion so that human beings will create another poem that has this verse about splitting the moon in it so that noone can be certain whether the verse from the Quran is original or the verse from the poem is original.

    If you think that statement 1 would impress you more than statement 2 then you must ask yourself, why didn't Allah simply use statement 1 if he was trying to show us his ability to predict the future?
  • HELLO!
     Reply #43 - January 08, 2013, 02:13 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on January 08, 2013, 08:46 AM
    but it's the easier path, it can be tantalizingly attractive to take.

    Of course. It can be a balm and comfort to you until it starts stifling your spirit and gnawing away at your soul. Again.

    But you know this. Despite your protestations of youth and naivety, you are about as far from a fool as it is possible to get.
  • HELLO!
     Reply #44 - January 08, 2013, 02:21 PM
    Thank you tonyt!! that was an amazing point. Clearly, if scenario #1 was given, it would be more impressive, but obviously, since that is knowledge that noone could have known before it happened, it's not in the Quraan, which I think makes sense.

    and Al-alethia PLEASE NO! you are falling into the same trap I continue to fall in every day. I understand the emotions that you feel when your mother asks you to pray for her, or when she thinks that you are devout. However, you cannot rely upon these emotions and use them for a basis of your beliefs. Freeing your mind, and formulating your own opinions and ideas is much more important that pretending to believe for your mother's sake. Also, just stop thinking of people as defined by their religious doctrines, just think of your mother as a person who nurtured and cared for you ever since you were born. Yes, obviously she would be upset if she found out that you were not Muslim, but I mean those are her beliefs that she unfortunately has been brainwashed with. However, that doesn't change her as a person, she still loves and cares for you as her child, and you should only look at her through this window. Your desire to be a muslim based on emotional need is equivalent to pretending that you are still muslim, which, I'm sure, is no different than how you are experiencing your life today.
  • HELLO!
     Reply #45 - January 08, 2013, 02:34 PM
    Also, al-alethia, referring to your point about "I might learn something new in the future, and that would change me." So what? So damn what? No matter what new, impressive, "miraculous", important knowledge you obtain, would it change the fact that Allah punishes people for eternity based on finite acts? Would it change the fact that the Prophet married and had sex with a 9 year old child? Would it change the fact that apostates are to be punished by death? Would it change the fact that God purposefully decided to test us, even though most of the people in his test are predetermined to go to hell? Would it change the fact that the punishment for adultery after marriage would be stoning to death? Would it change the fact that a husband is allowed to beat his wife? Would it change the fact that a woman's testimony is consered half of what a man's is? Would it change the fact that polygamous marriages are allowed? Would it change the fact that there are passages in the Qur'aan which so easily challenge the mind through scientific contradictions (splitting of moon, splitting the sea, stars used as missiles for devils, non living objects turning into snakes, going on some imaginary pilgrimage with an imaginary horse that has a wingspan as far as you can see, sun setting it into murky water (even if it is metaphorical)? Would it change the fact that there are numerous hadith that support even more outrageous claims like the sun setting between the horns of a devil? The devil pissing in your ear? Two angels sitting on your shoulders 24/7 writing scripts for your deeds? Would it change the fact that Islam continues to be a backwards religion, empties the mind of the reasoning abilities it needs, prevents people to proceed towards its evolution, and most of all, prevents families like yours and mine to always have huge emotional disturbances? Would it?
  • HELLO!
     Reply #46 - January 08, 2013, 05:14 PM
    ^^ Well said Kutta, the force seems strong in you. I is impressed yes

    Right, all of this seems to have amounted in a circular orgy of kuffar-credentials reaffirmation. I now no longer know who is trying to convince whom to avoid which bullshit Huh? For that reason, I'm gonna stop worrying about the amount of times the torah mentions cheese on the moon, and settle down and enjoy a nice bacon butty  piggy
    Hi
  • HELLO!
     Reply #47 - January 08, 2013, 05:16 PM
    Quote from: David on January 08, 2013, 02:14 AM
    It's easier to be a middle manager in the public sector than a musician, inventor, entrepreneur. Easier not to think for yourself or dream. Easier not to fall in love.


    Good to see you again old friend. Where can I buy your latest book?
    Hi
  • HELLO!
     Reply #48 - January 08, 2013, 05:30 PM
    Hi Kutta.

    Could you please clarify what the actual miracle is?
    I ask this because a book containing a certain amounts of words is easily producible by humans. Is the miracle that Mohammed could not have possibly known days in the year, month etc. If the Miracle is that they predict certain events then the question is where are these predictions in the Quran, However when I read the moon landing one it looked to me the case where they have been leading the evidence to a pre determined conclusion. After the fact.

    When I read through the mathematical miracles in the Quran, I can't help but wonder what the actual methodology in use is. Like listed in posts by others, I have yet to come across a verifiable list of the criteria used and available reference to every occurance of words.

    Also to note. Why use the gregorian calender. I've heard Muslims claim that the Islamic calender is superior to the Kuffar one. Clearly if God wanted to use 365 then why still use lunar.
    What happens in leap years. And the month count, months dont have 30 days in all of them.
    In the Lunar year their occurs a 13th month after a certain number of cycles. So where in the Quran does it clarify which system God is using lunar or solar?

    Also please note the verse about the moon. It s talking about splitting the moon. Where do they make the connections between splitting and landing they are clearly different. I'm aware some translate the verse to say the moon will be breached, but this translation is rare and popular among Quran only. Most traditional muslims will use splitting with the hadith myth.

    Finally, say for instance that these claims are verified and occur in the Quran. How does this prove God gave the information. They still have to show the connection, not just assert that God did it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKFGENhrUAI

    This is an amusing video to show exactly how these miracles come about.
  • HELLO!
     Reply #49 - January 08, 2013, 06:00 PM
    Welcome, Kutta, this Alex Lam Meem, the Grand Numerologist of CEMB speaking to verify the miracle of the book that makes things clear.

    As you know there are 14 different letters used in muqatta'at/horoof and there are 14 different combinations of the abbreviated letters . Do you remember how many suras have the magical letters? Yes, it's 29. Shame on those who have forgotten, they may verify the information I provide on Wikipedia. Add these up now! 14+14+29=57. What is 57? It is 3 times 19. And what is 19? What will explain thee what is 19? It is a number of letters in basmallah. It is numerical abjad value of the Arabic word wahid - (ONE). Who is one? Who is the first and the last? (where does 1 and 9 stand in the order of our numerals?). Iqraa bismi rabbika, how many words were in the first revelation (of the first five ayaat of surah al-'alaq?) - Nineteen (19). And how many letters in it? - 76.  And how many suras are there in the book of Allah? 114. What is 114? It is 19 times 6. What is Qaaf? A letter attached to two suras of Al-Quraan, both of them containing letter qaaf 57 times.

    A coincidence? What? How badly these shayateen have judged us...

     
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on January 07, 2013, 06:44 PM
    Welcome to the forum kutta. Here are your complementary creatures  parrot bunny
    I've heard about the word "day" being mentioned 365 times, "month" 12 times, stuff like that. It's quite creepy stuff tbh.


    Someone (may they forgive me fr forgetting their name) has said that numerology tells little about mathematics but a lot about psychology. People have always been fascinated with number tricks. The Koran is not special in this respect. Now the "miracle of 19" on the other hand is the real shit.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • HELLO!
     Reply #50 - January 08, 2013, 08:35 PM
    I am going to show you the mathematical miracles contained within the Twilight series by Stephany Meyers - evidence that these books were written by Allah himself.

    Here we see that the twilight series contains 364 mentions of the word "day". The last book in the series is titled "Breaking Dawn" - Symbolizing the 365th day.


    Here we see the word night appears 354 times in total - combined with the "eclipse", a day of both night AND day, we have the number of days in the Islamic calendar.



    And finally here we see that the number of references to the word month is 96, or 8 years. 8 years is the amount of time between the conception of the book (she got the idea in 2003) and the release of the final book in movie format (2011 for the first part). Only Allah himself could have known in advance of this timeline.


  • HELLO!
     Reply #51 - January 08, 2013, 08:37 PM
    ^^  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • HELLO!
     Reply #52 - January 08, 2013, 09:37 PM
     Cheesy Love it sethboy! Cheesy
  • HELLO!
     Reply #53 - January 08, 2013, 09:45 PM
     Cheesy Genius!
  • HELLO!
     Reply #54 - January 08, 2013, 09:50 PM
    Thanks kutta, musivore and David; your kind words and reassurances are much appreciated Afro As for my parents and the du'a/Quran issues I guess that's just something I'll have to live with; it's not easy but it could be worse and nobody gets a smooth and perfect run through life; we all have our issues and struggles.
  • HELLO!
     Reply #55 - January 08, 2013, 10:49 PM
    ^^ Hey, you're ever such a nice person  Afro

     And great work Seth  Smiley Smiley

    ALM: thanks for succinctly summing up the 19 sect...It sounds to me that you still buy into some of that bro? Or have I missed the irony in your tone for once?

    Oh, and this song is still for you my friend:

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSGvqjVHik8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

     
    Hi
  • HELLO!
     Reply #56 - January 09, 2013, 12:59 AM
    loool that was good sethboy (if that is actually legit Tongue)
  • HELLO!
     Reply #57 - January 09, 2013, 01:16 AM
    Quote from: kutta on January 09, 2013, 12:59 AM
    loool that was good sethboy (if that is actually legit Tongue)


    I downloaded the four books as PDFs and used Adobe PDF reader to search for certain words.

    I did do a bit of playing around though; much like the playing they do with the Quran. For example: I had to pick between using different forms of the word (singular, plural, "'s" on the end, not including words the word was in (Friday)). I also had to look around and figure out whether to use all 4 books or just one of them at a time. 4 Just happened to give me the best numbers to work with. One thing that's for sure though is I never had to edit the number to change it - I just had to find different ways to use what I had.

    I also had to get a little inventive too. I spent a good 20 minutes trying to fumble with searching for "month" to get it so it added to 12. I eventually came up with the alternate idea of using the 8 years thing since the numbers happened to come out as factors of 12 (to be honest I thought it wouldn't work, and it almost didn't - I had to work around the fact that the breaking dawn part 2 movie came out in 2012 and that the first book was only published in 2005).

    What I guess my point is is that you can find "miracles" in just about ANY book if you get crafty enough and "massage the truth". Overall it took me an hour and a bit to do that, and the only words I got around to searching were day, month, year, night, second, and minute. Notice how I didn't use half of them? That's because for every miracle you find in a book, there's going to be a million that you don't.
  • HELLO!
     Reply #58 - January 09, 2013, 01:24 AM
    I like your style sethboy Afro
  • HELLO!
     Reply #59 - January 09, 2013, 01:29 AM
    Quote from: musivore on January 08, 2013, 10:49 PM

    ALM: thanks for succinctly summing up the 19 sect...It sounds to me that you still buy into some of that bro? Or have I missed the irony in your tone for once?


     



    What do you mean by "buy into it"? Do you buy into the sun being bright or do you buy into gravitation? Was the first revelation made of 19 words placed in a sura with 19 ayat and which is the 19th surah from the end of the book or was it not?  Is there no missing basmallah in surah 9 and is there not an extra basmallah in 27:30? Is not 27+30=57 (19*3)? Does that not make the total of basmallahs 114 (19*6), same as number of surahs despite no basmallah in at-Taubah? If you count from 9th to 27th surah do you not get 19 surahs? Which of the signs of your Numerologist  will you deny?


    Edit: @ sethyboy0: a good magician does not reveal his tricks, please remove your previous post.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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