Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


'Islamic State' a.k.a. IS...
Today at 01:50 PM

Qur'anic studies today
Today at 10:52 AM

New PM incoming
Today at 08:30 AM

Attack on Jewish store in...
Yesterday at 11:57 PM

Blasphemy Case of Junaid...
Yesterday at 11:50 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
Yesterday at 10:52 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Yesterday at 09:23 PM

Protests in Iraq
by zeca
December 11, 2019, 07:40 PM

Are Hijabs really a choic...
December 11, 2019, 02:35 PM

Kashmir endgame
December 11, 2019, 02:13 PM

Iran uprising - is the en...
by zeca
December 11, 2019, 02:06 PM

Excellence and uniqueness
December 11, 2019, 01:45 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: The Quran - Both Altered And Changed

 (Read 75006 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     OP - December 26, 2012, 09:39 PM


    The Quran - Both Altered And Changed


    A few days ago we made a statement defending the right of Islamic evangelists to exhibit posters at various London railway stations in the face of what appeared to be a decision to remove them from some sites.

    As far as we are aware the billboards are still in situ now.

    As ex-Muslims, we believe freedom of conscience and expression of that conscience to be the most important principle of our secular and free society – and we wish for Muslims to understand this principle too. That is why we supported the Quran Project when it seemed their posters may have been removed.

    In that spirit we will now repudiate a claim made by the Quran Project in one of their billboards.

    In reference to the Quran, the billboard declares that it has ‘Never Changed, Never Altered’

    This is a central claim of Islamic apologia. This is understandable, because without this assertion the most basic claim of Islam as to its uniqueness and superiority is undermined and worthless.

    Stressing the perfection, flawlessness and unchanged, unaltered nature of the Quran is perhaps the single most important assertion for those engaging in ‘Da’wah’, or Islamic prosletysation.

    The problem is, it’s simply untrue.

    Of course if you are a believing Muslim you have to believe that the Angel Gabriel recited words directly from Allah into Muhammad’s ear and that the current form of the Quran is word for word the same as each word recited by Allah through the Angel Gabriel into Muhammad’s ear.

    The facts, of course, are different.

    The Quran has been altered. The Quran has been changed.


    There are multiple ways of demonstrating this, even through using primary Islamic religious texts:

    (1) Firstly it is important to remember that the Quran was never actually written down into any single book during Muhammad's life. It was always recited.

    (2) Even during the period before it was written down, there is some evidence that the Quran was changed by Muhammad himself.

    According to Ibn Ishaq, the earliest source on the life of Muhammad, there was an additional verse in Surah an-Najm that Muhammad later removed, saying that Satan had tricked him into believing it was from God. The verse is commonly referred to as verse 20.5, because it was supposed to fit between 20 and 21. It is also knowns as the "Satanic Verse" The verse went like this:

    19: Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-‘Uzzá
    20:  and Manāt, the third, the other?
    20.5:  These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for.

    Later Islamic scholars came to deny that this ever happened.

    But it seems to me that the reasoning behind denying the veracity of this event has nothing to do with scholarly skepticism and everything to do with the dangers of the theological repercussions of accepting the veracity of this.

    After all, if Satan had tricked Muhammad into believing that this verse was from God, then how can we be certain that all the other verses of the Quran are from God and not from Satan?

    Also the idea that Muhammad could be tricked by Satan, even for a short time, flies in the face of the notion that Muhammad is the perfect man.

    From a non-religious perspective, the acceptance of the three traditional Pagan Goddesses into Islam makes sense when Muhammad was weak and needed reconciliation with the Pagans, and the removal of this verse later when he was stronger and no longer needed their support makes a lot of sense, for that reason I do not doubt the veracity of the event so much.

    Of course when you bring this up in a discussion, it is likely to cause anger and outrage among some Muslims, who will often deny that this event occurred, and will even assert that Ibn Ishaq was a liar or something along those lines.

    This is often one of the major problems of trying to debate with some Muslims over the veracity of the Quran. Many will assert that the Quran has never been altered, and when proof from the earliest Islamic sources themselves is shown that plainly states that Muhammad himself altered parts of the Quran, those Muslims will often become outraged and refuse to discuss any further.

    (3) There are some Hadiths that claim that portions of the Quran are lost because the only written parts of it were eaten by a sheep or a goat (depending on translation):


    Quote

    Reported ‘Aisha (RA):

    ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944) (Hasan)





    (4) There is a whole doctrine of Naskh, or "abrogation" in Islam. This is the notion that many verses in the Quran are lost and many others have been abrogated by later verses and should no longer be considered.

    According to Burton in the Encyclopaedia of Islam and the book "Islamic Theories of Abrogation", 564 verses were alleged to have been expunged from the mushaf (Quran), or 1/11th of its total content.


    (5) According to the traditional Islamic narrative, the Quran was standardized into a single, authorative text for the first time by Caliph Uthman about 30 years after Muhammad died. The way this was done was that Uthman collected all manuscripts of the Quran that had been written down by various people across the Empire, he then selected the "authentic" ones and burned all variant readings.

    Here is the Hadith in Bukhari that describes this:


    Quote

    Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61

    Narrated Anas bin Malik:
    Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)




    In total there were seven different versions of the Quran according to this Hadith:


    Quote

    Al-Muwatta Hadith  Hadith 15.5   About the Qur'an

    Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Urwa ibn az-Zubayr that Abd ar-Rahman ibn Abd al-Qari said that he had heard Umar ibn al-Khattab say, "I heard Hisham ibn Hakim ibn Hizam reciting Surat al-Furqan (Sura 25) differently from me, and it was the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who had recited it to me. I was about to rush up to him but I granted him a respite until he had finished his prayer. Then I grabbed him by his cloak and took him to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said, 'Messenger of Allah, I heard this man reciting Surat al-Furqan differently from the way you recited it to me.'  The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Let him go.'  Then he said, 'Recite, Hisham,' and Hisham recited as I had heard him recite. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'It was sent down like that.'  Then he said to me, 'Recite' and I recited the sura, and he said, 'It was sent down like that. This Qur'an was sent down in seven (different) ways, so recite from it whatever is easy for you .' "




    6) Klingschor touches on (5) in this excellent video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKl0gA35HaE

    He then goes on to describe how the Quran was edited further in later periods.

                                                            ~~~~~~~~~

    These are all proofs that according to Islamic sources themselves, the Quran we have today may not be a flawless, unaltered copy of what was supposedly recited by the angel Gabriel into Muhammad's ear.

    In fact, they demonstrate how the Quran has been subject to considerable editing, change and altering.

    That these evidences arise from within the corpus of Islamic primary sources itself is devastating enough.

    The work of many academics who have studied the Quran, especially in the light of the discovery of the Sanaa fragments in 1972, points to the manifold ways in which the Quran was altered and changed.

    An excellent primer on this issue is an essay from The Atlantic magazine from 1999 called "What is the Koran?"

    It points out:

    Quote
    In 1996 the Koranic scholar Günter Lüling wrote in The Journal of Higher Criticism about "the wide extent to which both the text of the Koran and the learned Islamic account of Islamic origins have been distorted, a deformation unsuspectingly accepted by Western Islamicists until now."


    Quote
    In 1994 the journal Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam published a posthumous study by Yehuda D. Nevo, of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, detailing seventh- and eighth-century religious inscriptions on stones in the Negev Desert which, Nevo suggested, pose "considerable problems for the traditional Muslim account of the history of Islam."


    Quote
    And since 1991 James Bellamy, of the University of Michigan, has proposed in the Journal of the American Oriental Society a series of "emendations to the text of the Koran"—changes that from the orthodox Muslim perspective amount to copyediting God.


    Quote
    GERD-R. Puin speaks with disdain about the traditional willingness, on the part of Muslim and Western scholars, to accept the conventional understanding of the Koran. "The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,'" he says. "But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims—and Orientalists—will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible—if it can't even be understood in Arabic—then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not—as even speakers of Arabic will tell you—there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on."


    We can see how the truth claims made about the Quran never having been altered and never having been changed are incorrect.

    The implications of this are immense - it demonstrates how the single most important foundation for Islam's uniqueness and exceptionalism is an illusion, propounded by religious propagandists.

    The beauty of free conscience and free expression is that organisations like The Quran Project can express their beliefs openly - and in return, they can be shown up as being false too.

    It is in this way that truth prevails. It is through Muslims openly making truth claims for the Quran and Islam that they can be examined and found to be false.

    That is why free conscience and free expression of that conscience is so sacred a principle.

    Ex-Muslims have the entire world to gain by the simple elevation of the most powerful and subversive and truth-enhancing principle we have  -  freedom of conscience and freedom of speech.

    The Quran Project brings false claims for the Quran into the public domain through billboards and posters - and free conscience exposes them as untrue.

    It is when we contemplate this that we can grasp just how empowering freedom of conscience and expression can be.


    (with special thanks to Tony)

  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #1 - January 04, 2013, 02:41 AM




    Rime has kindly compiled a serious of tweets outlining further background on the altering and changing of the Quran

    Rime's twitter: https://twitter.com/rime1313

    +++++++

    #OriginOfQuran

    (1) - There was not a single manuscript in which the Mohammed had collected all the of the Quran

    (2) - Umar worried about the death of those who learnt the Quran by heart asked Abu Bakr the caliphate (632-634) to collect it

    (3) - Abu Bakr told Ziab Ibn Thabit to collect the Quran The final book was handed to him then to Umar then to his daughter Hafsa

    (4) - Uthman caliphate 644-656 decided on a new collection due to disputes among his ranks over the correct reading

    (5) - Said ibn Thabet was chosen for the task, he carefully compared his text with the one held by Hafsa

    (6) - The final version was completed around 650 was sent to kufa Basra Damascus Mecca and medina all other versions were destroyed

    (7) - According to Uba ibn Ka’b, the verses of the Parties were more that 200 and not the 73 collected. (As-Suyuti, Itqan)

    ( 8 ) - There were 15 primary codices of Quran written by Ibn Masud, Uba ibn Ka’b, ‘Ali, Abu Bakr, al-Aswad, and others

    (9) - Uthman tried to bring order to this chaotic situation by canonizing the Medinan Code and destroying the others

    (10) - Early was written in a scripta defectiva not pointed and not signed which make distinguishing letters difficult.

    (11) - Some early codices survived Uthman destruction and made it into the next century

    (12) - the Qoranic scholar Ibn Mujahid (died 935) listed 10 different reading of the Quran and accepted 14

    (13) - Some of the other reading are: 1. Nafi of Medina according to Warsh and Qalun

    (14) - 2. Ibn Kathir of Mecca according to al-Bazzi and Qunbul 3. Ibn Amir of Damascus according to Hisham and Ibn Dakwan

    (15) -  4. Abu Amr of Basra according to al-Duri and al-Susi 5. Asim of Kufa according to Hafs and Abu Bakr

    (16) - 6. Hamza of Kuga according to Khalaf and Khallad 7. Al-Kisai of Kufa according to al Duri and Abul Harith

    (17) - Those were the major surviving version of the Quran

    (18) - The version of Asim of Kufa through Hafs was adopted in the Egyptian edition of the Koran in 1924

    (19) - The version of Nafi through Warshwas adopted in the rest of North Africa

    (20) - Al-Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf changed several words in Uthman's version of the Quran here's some of those changes :

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070309000028/http://www.geocities.com/pentaur2001/index.html

    (21) - As a conclusion the claim that quran wasn't altered couldn't be further from the truth. It shows the ignorance of its holders
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #2 - January 08, 2013, 03:34 AM

    False advertising?
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #3 - February 08, 2013, 04:22 AM

    Someone sent me this article: http://islamicresponse.blogspot.ca/2008/07/allegation-that-quran-has-been-changed.html
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #4 - February 08, 2013, 10:19 AM

    Send them this article back  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #5 - February 08, 2013, 12:42 PM

    I did, and they sent me that wacko
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #6 - February 08, 2013, 01:40 PM

    I posted some of these claims and they gave me this.

    http://www.islamicbulletin.com/free_downloads/quran/history_of_quranic_text.pdf

    They say that these claims have been refuted in this book.



  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #7 - February 08, 2013, 02:06 PM

    I am not surprised that you are getting responses back saying its all been refuted. What they are conveniently doing is using solely Islamic sources which are quite frankly biased and one sided. Ofcourse they will indicate that the Quran has never been changed. Lack of alternative sources of info outside of Islamic sources makes their argument less credible which they can't seem to grasp.

    Also note that they are using the sources of information that are being scrutinized as proof to support there own arguments. I.e they are using that which needs to be proven as the proof of what they are proving. Lack of alternative verification for the claims made in islamic sources makes it difficult to established what actually happened.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #8 - February 08, 2013, 02:09 PM

    It's like watching someone use the Bible to refute evolution.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #9 - February 08, 2013, 02:11 PM

    " Each year during the month of Ramadhan, the Angel Jibril (Gabriel) would sit with Muhammad and recite what had been revealed thus far. This happened in a particular order twice in the month of Ramadhan in the last year of the Prophet Muhammad's life."

    Right. I get it now. How foolish of me not to realize what a comprehensive and reliable preservation method that was.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #10 - February 08, 2013, 02:16 PM

    I am proud of the fact that CEMB supports the rights of this group to post up their advertising.  And even prouder of the fact that they challenge them on the absurd claim that the Quran was never changed.

    I remember that the Alim Program (USA) taught a whole class just on the Satanic Verses alone.  That was an earth-shattering class for me because up until them, I never heard that story.  But I was impressed that Alim was being truthful and wasn't attempting to deny the whole thing.  I signed up for that Alim seminar to strengthen my faith, but in hindsight that was probably the beginning of the fall of my Iman.........

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #11 - February 08, 2013, 02:18 PM

    Quote
    " Each year during the month of Ramadhan, the Angel Jibril (Gabriel) would sit with Muhammad and recite what had been revealed thus far. This happened in a particular order twice in the month of Ramadhan in the last year of the Prophet Muhammad's life."


    LOL HappyMurtad...just LOL.  I can't believe that I actually used to believe that.  Such bullshit.

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #12 - February 08, 2013, 02:24 PM

    They say that these claims have been refuted in this book.


    Of course they say it does - the courtiers of the Naked Emperor insisted he was fully clothed too.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #13 - February 08, 2013, 06:08 PM

    These chains of authenticity are ridiculous.

    Allah thinks something.  To do that he has had to distill and summarise from his entire onmipotent and omniscient all.  He has already edited, created something new and different that was not already there.

    He then has to tell Gabriel.  It must be translated into words.

    Even if it was a full data dump of the entire eternal contents of the universe, Gabriel then has the task of summarising it and whispering into Mo's ear.  Another translation, editing step.

    Mo also has to turn it into words - spoken and written - both translating and editing and changing processes.  Has he breathed in the correct places - silences and timing are critically important for meaning, did he use the received dialect?

    And then we come to the according to and according to stuff!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #14 - February 08, 2013, 06:12 PM

    Oh, and I forgot the receiver!  I am hard of hearing, I cannot hear high frequencies!  Did mo actually receive the message properly?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #15 - February 08, 2013, 06:19 PM

    LOL i think mo had a multi personality.
    some days, he felt like borrowing bible stories.
    other days, he loved being a nice guy,
    other days, he wanted to have sex with 6 year olds
    and then when he got bored out of all of that, he decided to be best friends with an angel that had a wingspan as far as the eyes could see. And then they all lived happily ever after..fucking up the world.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #16 - February 08, 2013, 06:32 PM

    The most damning thing is that Islamic scholars promote hearsay and conjecture, and that is all most of islamic history is based on. Like hearsay is reliable and accurately verifiable Roll Eyes.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #17 - February 08, 2013, 07:48 PM

    It is created from bible and jewish texts.it's that simple.all made up.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #18 - February 26, 2013, 12:15 PM

    In one of his excellent songs Leonard Cohen is singing  "I am the little Jew who wrote the Bible".

    Its fascinating that so many people can literally believe a book that "came down" to a single man hiding in a cave is not only Gods literal word, but that it also have never been altered/corrupted.

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #19 - May 07, 2013, 04:50 PM


    Klingschor's blog "DID MEMORISATION PRESERVE THE QURʾĀN?"

    http://klingschor.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/did-memorisation-preserve-quran.html?view=mosaic

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #20 - May 07, 2013, 09:48 PM

    False advertising?


    First thing that came to my mind when I read the original post. If someone is prepared to put up an advertisement they must be prepared to have its claims challenged.

    Too late now, I suppose.
    http://www.asa.org.uk/

    I doubt they would be prepared to make a ruling but a concerted effort at complaining to them might at least be fun.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #21 - June 03, 2013, 11:58 PM

    im a big fan of yasir qadhi and he answers your Satanic verses problem
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaVAmxvd5Ec
    plus with the uthman issue
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSNeOkLM5Qg

    Lol exmuslims are a dying breed islam is the fastest growning religion and in the time of the prophet not a single person left the religion
    but now a days half the ummah doesnt even wake up for fajr on time so what do you expect :/

    Smile Smiley
    its Sunnah
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #22 - June 04, 2013, 08:47 AM

    Yadir Qadhi doesn't answer any questions in those videos. He engages in sophistry, bluster and shadow dancing, which is the stock in trade of all  da'wah propaganda hustlers.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #23 - June 04, 2013, 01:37 PM

    you might have watch the wrong videos because he talks about the saitanic verse for 30 mins atleast beside the ''shadow dancing'' Roll Eyes nice try

    Smile Smiley
    its Sunnah
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #24 - June 04, 2013, 01:39 PM

    And the verse of stoning? Why don't we find that in the mushaf today?
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #25 - June 04, 2013, 02:28 PM

    It should also be mentioned that Muhammad himself gave 7 different version of the quran which were given to him by Gabriel.

    Volume 3, Book 41, Number 601:
    Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

    I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to that of mine. Allah's Apostle had taught it to me (in a different way). So, I was about to quarrel with him (during the prayer) but I waited till he finished, then I tied his garment round his neck and seized him by it and brought him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I have heard him reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to the way you taught it to me." The Prophet ordered me to release him and asked Hisham to recite it. When he recited it, Allah s Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way." He then asked me to recite it. When I recited it, he said, "It was revealed in this way. The Qur'an has been revealed in seven different ways, so recite it in the way that is easier for you."

    My Rules:
    1. I know bullshit when I see it.
    2. "Smart" comments will be ignored.
    3. Comments which aren't worthy of my time will be ignored.
    If I do not respond to your comment then it has fallen into the above categories.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #26 - June 04, 2013, 02:31 PM

    Yes there where 7 different "Dialects" but not different versions

    and at the time of uthman (if you listened to the videos you would know) that they were all made into 1 book

    Smile Smiley
    its Sunnah
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #27 - June 04, 2013, 02:36 PM

    Even in different dialects that is an automatic different version. You might aswell translate into another language. The moment 2 things are not the same, they are different. The argument of dialects is invalid, Allah said the quran would be preserved, yet there were 7 revealed and accoriding to islam only one heavenly tablet. Which one is the real one?

    It should also be noted that the disciples were about to kill eachother due to the difference, that doesn't sound like a dialectual differnce to me.

    My Rules:
    1. I know bullshit when I see it.
    2. "Smart" comments will be ignored.
    3. Comments which aren't worthy of my time will be ignored.
    If I do not respond to your comment then it has fallen into the above categories.
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #28 - June 04, 2013, 04:52 PM

    do the scots have a different language then the british
    (well slightly yes but in terms of slang and the welsh do) but the differences are resolved when applied in context
    Smiley
    secondly the bedoins of quraish fought for 3 days straight over 1 camel going into someone elses territory

    yet these arnt bedoins but what was the fight at the time of uthman and ali

    due to little differences enlarged by ignorance

    (not saying uthman or ali were wrong/ignorant)

    Smile Smiley
    its Sunnah
  • The Quran - Both Altered And Changed
     Reply #29 - June 04, 2013, 06:01 PM

    you might have watch the wrong videos because he talks about the saitanic verse for 30 mins atleast beside the ''shadow dancing'' Roll Eyes nice try


    Yasir Qadhi impresses simple minds craving reassurance that they have not been lied to about the man made, man written book called the Quran. It is in this context that his apologia is dismissed, and why it appeals to so many believers.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »