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Theme Changer

 Topic: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam

 (Read 40561 times)
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  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #180 - July 09, 2012, 11:20 AM

    Does anyone know when this book will be out on paperback (can only find hardcover ones)? I read on my commute to work, and really hate carrying hardbacks.

    Judging by the reviews on Amazon and elsewhere (and these I find normally quite useful), this book isn’t quite up there with his best works i.e. Rubicon & Persian Fire. It seems that the subject-matter could possibly have been too ambitious, thus rendering the narrative a little more sweeping than when Holland is at his best. Still looking forward to it though.

    Hi
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #181 - July 09, 2012, 12:15 PM

    I have the book on Kindle. The book was a good read for what went on during late antiquity in these lands. It was also a slightly prolonged throat clearing if you wanted to get into the birth of Islam. Which to be honest was a bit brief for me. The book was good for a general history of the near east in the run up to Islam.

    I think a better approach has been taken by Marshall Hodgsons three volume work titled "The Venture Of Islam". It starts from around the fall of the Persian empire and ends around the fall of the caliphate in 1924. I have these in paperback and have been sat on the shelf since 2005. I plan on reading them soon.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #182 - July 09, 2012, 12:27 PM

    ..............................

    I think a better approach has been taken by Marshall Hodgsons three volume work titled "The Venture Of Islam". It starts from around the fall of the Persian empire and ends around the fall of the caliphate in 1924. I have these in paperback and have been sat on the shelf since 2005. I plan on reading them soon.

     Marshall Hodgsons.. I am glad to see that name Mr. Omaar Khayaam.,   That guy died young. otherwise he would have changed a bit of Islamic history.. The problem of reading his 3 volumes is that huge amount of  material..  You can read Quran and hadith + Sharia law ..  three times before you could finish his books on Islam ..

    Anyways Here is one of his books as pdf file .. whoever would like to read his works Please download it .... Often these links go away with time..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #183 - July 09, 2012, 12:28 PM

    Cheers Omaar - I try to avoid Kindle also (though I have one). So, still looking for news on paperbacks?

    (Apologies for not returning your call yet - just got back from a holiday and I've been terribly, terribly lazy [and rude] of late)

    Hi
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #184 - July 09, 2012, 12:55 PM

    Tweet from Tom Holland

    Quote
    Tom Holland ‏@holland_tom
    Here's an intriguing hadith: "What is in agreement with the Qur'an is from me, whether I really said it or not."


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #185 - July 09, 2012, 01:01 PM

    The paperback release date should be on the Amazon page.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #186 - July 09, 2012, 01:03 PM

    It was also a slightly prolonged throat clearing if you wanted to get into the birth of Islam.


    That is a good way of describing it. Its not just about Islam. As much attention is given to Byzantium, Persia, in order to describe the world of late antiquity out of which Islam arose. The ideas, philosophical influences, social outlook and imperialistic pressures of the age.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #187 - July 09, 2012, 01:48 PM

    The paperback release date should be on the Amazon page.


    Checked that – no details. Only that I can pre-order. But when it would then arrive remains a mystery.

    Billy, would you mind photocopying the book, binding it, and posting it out to me? I’ll donate a quid to Cemb for your efforts?

    Hi
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #188 - July 09, 2012, 04:27 PM

    Better still, allow me to appropriate a peacock feather to use as a quill, and transcribe it on parchment  Smiley

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #189 - July 09, 2012, 05:32 PM

     Cheesy Cheesy

    Hardback it is then. That's a fucking shame: I like to pretend I'm cool when walking to and from my commute, by hiding my paperbacks in my jacket pocket. Can't do that with hardback. Around where I live, you can get beaten up for carrying a book, cause ppl who read are seen as being nerdy enough to warrant a slap... Seems I'm gonna have to fight some slappers off Roll Eyes

    Hi
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #190 - July 09, 2012, 08:54 PM

    Better still, allow me to appropriate a peacock feather to use as a quill, and transcribe it on parchment  Smiley


    This would make a brilliant signature.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #191 - July 09, 2012, 09:37 PM


    Hi Tom Smiley

    Quote
    Unsurprisingly, I suppose, the Council of Ex-Muslims seem keener on my book than @loonwatchers . God bless 'em! http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topi

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/222442768604217346


    Everyone say hello to Tom  cheers

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #192 - July 09, 2012, 09:40 PM

    Hello Tom.  Afro
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #193 - July 09, 2012, 09:48 PM

    Welcome, Tom Smiley

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #194 - August 15, 2012, 05:37 PM


    Great news! Channel 4 have actually made a programme based on this book. Date and time as below.

    Hope this gets put up on youtube so everyone not in the UK can see it.

    Kudos to Channel 4 for having the cojones to do this.



    +++++

    Tuesday 28/08/2012

    9pm

    Islam: The Untold Story

    In this ground-breaking film, historian Tom Holland explores how a new religion - Islam - emerged from the seedbed of the ancient world, and asks what we really know for certain about the rise of Islam. The result is an extraordinary detective story. Tom finds himself embroiled in what, for 40 years now, has been an underground but seismic debate: the issue of whether, as Muslims have always believed, Islam was born fully formed in all its fundamentals, or else evolved gradually, over many years - and in ways that Muslims today might not necessarily recognise.

    http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/week-35-highlights-2012




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #195 - August 15, 2012, 05:59 PM

    Cool! Thanks for letting us know. Will try and watch that...online? D: We have no tv here lol....It should be up on 4oD right? free to watch?

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #196 - August 15, 2012, 06:05 PM


    Yeah it'll definitely be on 4OD afterwards! Hopefully someone uploads it so that international people can watch it too.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #197 - August 15, 2012, 06:50 PM

    Looking forward to it. Please a timely reminder nearer the time billy.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #198 - August 15, 2012, 07:57 PM

    idon't think i get that on tv.. is there a way to watch it online?
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #199 - August 15, 2012, 08:17 PM


    It will be on the Channel 4 website afterwards but I don't think you'll be able to watch that overseas. With any luck someone will post it on youtube or some other site where you can watch it - I'm sure that someone will. Unless you know how to use one of those proxy services and can watch it on the 4OD site.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #200 - August 15, 2012, 09:03 PM

    Quote
    Tom Holland has just tweeted me writing


    holland_tom Tom Holland
    no question Muhammad existed. A number of near Christian contemporaries mention him by name. It's the Arab silence that's odd.
    Mar 26, 6:40 PM via web


    My point was/is slightly different from  what  Tom Holland and others extract on the "Historicity of Muhammad".. I am not saying, There WAS NO Muhammad type of character that is described a bit in Quran and lots of it in hadith .. It is clear from the proper names that we see in Quran  such as Abu-Lahab, Zayd and couple that to that   Chapter-66 AT-TAHRIM" of quran along with Zaid/Zaynab story from hadith does tell us there was such character during early part of Islam.  

    What I am saying is the Muhammad that was there in the first 10 years of Islam that is Meccan time is different from that Muhammad you get from Madinan time. Often the verses of quran that were alleged revealed in Mecca consider earlier prophets of OT & NT as "Muhammad" (The Praised one).  In other words Muhammad of quran is just a Arabic word that can be used any good person/ good  leader.

    So In short what I am saying is this Muhammad of Quran and hadith are combination of characters from the year 530 AD  to all the way to the days hadith were compiled as books that is ~800 AD..  Any  ways, Islamic history is not compiled properly. We have better history for  Alexander than Muhammad.   But I would love to read  on this alleged Muhammad from  those Christian, Jewish and Persian contemporary historians of 5 th and 6th century.  It is indeed worth exploring that subject.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #201 - August 15, 2012, 10:09 PM

    I think I'll definitely check this out as I haven't read any of the book. I hope it's better than that Rageh Omaar- Life of Mohammed docu which was crap.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #202 - August 18, 2012, 05:50 PM

    I'm only at the end of Chapter 3 of the book and there's no doubt that Tom Holland is a master scholar who has done an impressive amount of research and knows his subject well.

    BUT... I know that people on this site are mainly interested in the origins of Islam, but what I question are Holland's personal assumptions about the existence of Jesus. He seems to accept without question that Jesus existed and that the stories of his life and death are based on truth and fact.

    On page 155, for example, he says, "A few decades on from Jesus' crucifixion...". Where is the evidence of Jesus' crucifixion? Why does he treat Jesus as a real person when most [non-religious] scholars can demonstrate that it's highly likely he wasn't, or at least that he wasn't who we think he was.

    For example, "No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings."

    And, "If, indeed, the Gospels portray a historical look at the life of Jesus, then the one feature that stands out prominently within the stories shows that people claimed to know Jesus far and wide, not only by a great multitude of followers but by the great priests, the Roman governor Pilate, and Herod who claims that he had heard "of the fame of Jesus" (Matt 14:1)". One need only read Matt: 4:25 where it claims that "there followed him [Jesus] great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judea, and from beyond Jordan." The gospels mention, countless times, the great multitude that followed Jesus and crowds of people who congregated to hear him. So crowded had some of these gatherings grown, that Luke 12:1 alleges that an "innumerable multitude of people... trode one upon another." Luke 5:15 says that there grew "a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear..." The persecution of Jesus in Jerusalem drew so much attention that all the chief priests and scribes, including the high priest Caiaphas, not only knew about him but helped in his alleged crucifixion. (see Matt 21:15-23, 26:3, Luke 19:47, 23:13). The multitude of people thought of Jesus, not only as a teacher and a miracle healer, but a prophet (see Matt:14:5).

    "So here we have the gospels portraying Jesus as famous far and wide, a prophet and healer, with great multitudes of people who knew about him, including the greatest Jewish high priests and the Roman authorities of the area, and not one person records his existence during his lifetime? If the poor, the rich, the rulers, the highest priests, and the scribes knew about Jesus, who would not have heard of him?

    "What appears most revealing of all, comes not from what people later wrote about Jesus but what people did not write about him. Consider that not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him!"

    (Source: http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm)

    So I am looking forward to hearing what Holland has to say about Islam and Muhammad, but I have less confidence in what he purports to be fact now than I did when he started. I think he also cites the Constitution of Medina (622 AD and usually considered to be the first authentic reference to Muhammad) as a historical fact when again, there is no evidence for this.

    What is very clear, though, is that what we believe to be historical facts - everything we have based the history of the modern world on - is in reality stories invented by political and religious individuals who wanted to corrupt the realities of the past and make themselves appear to be of great / divine lineage.

    That is a revelation to me, and the implications are huge.  


  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #203 - August 18, 2012, 07:05 PM

    I was thinking I should catch up on the  Islamic Sirah on moe's life and traditional Islamic mythology for review before i get into this stuff...

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #204 - December 18, 2012, 12:47 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NcNYon0Sk9c
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