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 Topic: Abdullah ibn Saad

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  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     OP - December 13, 2012, 02:38 PM

    I have been reading about Abdullah ibn Saad, how he became a muslim but then thought mohammed was making the whole thing up and apostatised, went back to mecca to tell everyone and then later on mohammed had him executed after the conquest of mecca. Some muslims however argue on how reliable the account of this is, can anyone shed some light on what happend?
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #1 - December 13, 2012, 03:12 PM

    I have been reading about Abdullah ibn Saad, how he became a muslim but then thought mohammed was making the whole thing up and apostatised, went back to mecca to tell everyone and then later on mohammed had him executed after the conquest of mecca. Some muslims however argue on how reliable the account of this is, can anyone shed some light on what happend?

    i don't think that is true monstart. We must realize early Islamic history is full of holes and has whole lot of confusion .

    Apparently That guy Abdullah ibn Saad,  or(‘Abdullāh ibn Sa‘ad ibn Abī as-Sarḥ (Arabic: عبدالله بن سعد بن أبي السرح‎) ) was the foster brother of Uthman ibn Affan   the third Caliph..

    Frankly speaking   "The Muhammad of Quran" is a very vague figure.  Where as  "Muhammad of Hadith" was nothing but a warlord. At best you can say he was leader of his tribe and at worst he was just Criminal +  nut case.    More over the word "Muhammad" it self is an adjective  with the meaning "A Praise worthy Person"  .. You can use that word for any one..  for eg. "Muhammad Monostat "   lol..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #2 - December 14, 2012, 11:16 AM

    Muslims tend to say anything that makes Islam seem bad in modern light as unreliable, whilst picking and choosing the reliability of what they want to see.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #3 - December 14, 2012, 01:54 PM

    i don't think that is true monstart. We must realize early Islamic history is full of holes and has whole lot of confusion .

    Apparently That guy Abdullah ibn Saad,  or(‘Abdullāh ibn Sa‘ad ibn Abī as-Sarḥ (Arabic: عبدالله بن سعد بن أبي السرح‎) ) was the foster brother of Uthman ibn Affan   the third Caliph..

    Frankly speaking   "The Muhammad of Quran" is a very vague figure.  Where as  "Muhammad of Hadith" was nothing but a warlord. At best you can say he was leader of his tribe and at worst he was just Criminal +  nut case.    More over the word "Muhammad" it self is an adjective  with the meaning "A Praise worthy Person"  .. You can use that word for any one..  for eg. "Muhammad Monostat "   lol..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Yeezevee,
    I’ve read your argument several times now questioning the historicity of the personality Muhammad as we know him today. I’m not sure I totally buy it. While I have no doubts that many stories concerning the self proclaimed prophet were invented later on, I personally see no reason to believe that there was not a delusional Arab merchant who believed he was a doomsday prophet.

    The story general story of Muhammad is not particularly flattering and seems unlikely to have been fabricated later on for any reason. The guy contemplated suicide, his own clansmen thought he was insane, a liar, or both, he lost battles, he performed no miracles, he had serious domestic problems, and after he died, most people abandoned his teachings and had to be subdued militarily. I see no reason why anyone would invent a fictional character like Muhammad.

    Furthermore, I have not seen any credible evidence to date that sheds light on any other ideas as to how the Arab empire could have united itself and conquered the world outside of the Muhammad narrative.

    I find it interesting that the descendents of Muhammad’s biggest adversary, Abu Sufyan Ibn Harb, went on to rule the Arab empire as the Banu Ummayyah. Reading between the lines of history, I don’t find it hard to believe that Muhammad and his band of thugs were able to control the trading routes of ancient Arabia through highway robbery and banditry, just as the Seerah suggests. Once Makkah was overrun, their chief, Abu Sufyan, who was definitely clever and cunning, probably advised his sons just to lay low until after Muhammad died and to revolt against his gang of thugs and reclaim their title as rulers. Interestingly enogh, that is exactly the Shi’ah account as well—and I used to be a salafi.

    In order to remain in power, Muaawiyah and Yazid needed to pretend to be Muslims. Seeing the power the religion had to unite and motivate the tribes, it is not surprising that they would have done so. They just claimed the title of Khalifah for themselves and murdered Ali, Hasan, and Hussain.

    That is what I believe happened. I really don’t think there is very strong evidence to support any other theory. As for the idea that “Muhammad” was simply a title, this is just not supported by the facts. In Arabic, titles are always preceded by a definite article. So you have, for example, AL-imam or ASH shaikh,  but you never have AL Muhammad. Muhammad was definitely a first name.

    As a side note, as it relates to titles, it is also interesting to note that the term AL Amin, that Muslims always claim was a sign that Muhammad was trustworthy, is probably better translated as “The Trustee,” as Muhammad was the trustee of Khadijah’s affairs. This is still the way the term is used in Arabic today.
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #4 - December 14, 2012, 02:52 PM

    happy murtad.. your sexy!!

    yum yum
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #5 - December 14, 2012, 02:59 PM

    Yeezevee,
    I’ve read your argument several times now questioning the historicity of the personality Muhammad as we know him today. I’m not sure I totally buy it. While I have no doubts that many stories concerning the self proclaimed prophet were invented later on, I personally see no reason to believe that there was not a delusional Arab merchant who believed he was a doomsday prophet.

    The story general story of Muhammad is not particularly flattering and seems unlikely to have been fabricated later on for any reason. The guy contemplated suicide, his own clansmen thought he was insane, a liar, or both, he lost battles, he performed no miracles, he had serious domestic problems, and after he died, most people abandoned his teachings and had to be subdued militarily. I see no reason why anyone would invent a fictional character like Muhammad.

    Furthermore, I have not seen any credible evidence to date that sheds light on any other ideas as to how the Arab empire could have united itself and conquered the world outside of the Muhammad narrative. .....

    Hello happymurtad, To answer your questions I have to a be Lawyer.. lol..and I have to throw lot more information on the board. But we will discuss this  subject of "Historical Muhammad"  looking through different angles. You do have point in assuming that there must be person with some characteristics  if not all that is described   in  hadith., Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq and The sunnah of Muhammad from the available  Islamic literature.   As you pointed many of the stories of Muhammad are fabricated in hadith and  Ibn Ishaq's work on Muhammad was  written  roughly    200 years after Muhammad's death, So if we through these two out, We will have very little about Muhammad.   The 2nd problem  that I have is town Mecca.  We can easily see from Quran,, The Meccan Surahs are entirly differt from Madinan surahs.  Meccan verses are nothing but stories ffrom OT and NT singing in Arabic language. The problem is  here location Mecca.  If Mecca was so famous at that time, Why is that we have no information on that town from other hsitorians such as greeks or  Egyptians or Jewish folk?  Could it be possible the Meccan Muhammad is different of Madinan Muhammad?    Whyis that we have so little information on Meccan Muhammad in Hadith?

    How many children  did Muhammad had with Khadija?  Why we don't have hadith from Khadija as Muhammad was already a Prophet when she was alive?  We have tons from Aisha but very little from Khadja.  So I went to look in to Sahaba and this is what we have

    Quote
    Sahaba of Arab Origin:

    Abdullah ibn Abbas:

    Abu Bakr as-Saddiq:

    Al Harith bin Hisham:

    Ali ibn Abi Talib:

    Bilal ibn Rabah:

    Marwan bin Al-Hakim:

    Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya:

    Umar ibn Al-Khattab:

    Uthman ibn ‘Affan:

    Sa’id Al-Khudri:

    Sa’id ibn Jubayr:

    Zaid bin Thabit:

    Uthman ibn ‘Affan:

     And all of these guys are from Madina .. As for as Inventing "Muhammad" is concerned .. Christ was invented by Christians is it not? Why not Muhammad?    Cheesy

    Anyways we should discuss bit more detail on this subject..


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #6 - December 14, 2012, 03:00 PM

    happy murtad.. your sexy!!

    yum yum


    huh!  Huh?  and rest of the people in CEMB are what? pork chops finmad now I am so jealous of murtads

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #7 - December 14, 2012, 04:17 PM


    ha ha yeezee  bunny

    I have a thing for guys with Islamic knowledge.. What can I say??  whistling2
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #8 - December 14, 2012, 04:33 PM

    ha ha yeezee  bunny

    I have a thing for guys with Islamic knowledge.. What can I say??  whistling2

     Huh?  Many in CEMB have Islamic knowledge  so what??   Cheesy  Cheesy.  

    And I too have respect and a thing to those who left religions.. specially women folks  
    Any ways happymurtad  has great insight in to Islam mujahid., We will continue to discuss the subject..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #9 - December 14, 2012, 04:42 PM

    lol...Thanks for the shout out Mujahid, you're pretty hot yourself.  Wink

    I am all for a good round of Mo bashing, I just think it has to be supported by evidence. As far as I’m concerned, I just haven’t seen enough evidence to suggest that the historical Muhammad was not pretty much the way the seerah described him. I’m open to the idea; I just don’t think it fits the evidence. As for the Jesus comparison, I think the two cases are very different. The New Testament writers clearly went through countless, painstaking efforts to make their Jesus fit the prophecies of the Old Testament Messiah. They invent a census that never occurred to make their Jesus be born in Bethlehem. They create this ridiculous genealogy of Joseph to make Jesus from the line of David (which doesn’t really matter anyway if he was God’s son), they make Mary a virgin to fit the Old Testament prophesies, even though if you continue to read about the “virgin conceiving” in the Old Testament, it is clear that a) they were not talking about immaculate conception, and b) they were not referring to Jesus. They make him live in Nazareth to fit the prophecies that the Messiah would be a Nazer (They also demonstrate their ignorance of the Old Testament here. Since they were not learned Jewish scholars, they thought the term referred to the town, where as in reality it referred to someone who takes oaths to abstain from alcohol and hair cutting. The Hebrew and Arabic words for “oath taker,” Nazer, are identical.) They make their Jesus perform all kinds of Miracles that were common among the gods of different religions of the time, e.g. walking on water, raising the dead, healing the blind, etc. And ultimately, they made their Jesus a pretty nice, likeable guy. A serious reading of the New Testament gives ample evidence that the character of Jesus was invented, or at least largely embellished, by the authors.

    The same can not be said of Muhammad. As I mentioned earlier, he is a remarkably unflattering character and he does not fit any known prophecies. He is described pretty much as a ruthless sociopath. In addition, his Qur’an only really serves to advance him and his own personal quest for power and authority. I don’t see any reason why anyone would make him up.

    As for Mecca, I agree that its importance may have been exaggerated, but I see no reason to doubt that a trading post sanctuary exited among the Bedouin tribes of ancient Arabia. The fact that you had a dooms day prophet roaming the streets doesn’t strike me as strange either. Visit Times Square or Hyde Park, as I’m sure you have and see all the delusional nutcases. Those places are full of people just like Mo. They just don’t have armies.
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #10 - January 03, 2013, 06:37 PM

    In addition, his Qur’an only really serves to advance him and his own personal quest for power and authority. I don’t see any reason why anyone would make him up.


    This is really insightful HM.

    The 'making up' part is going on now, when Muslims living in the UK or USA try to turn Muhammad into a kind of cross between the Buddha and Mahatma Gandhi, with all these stories about how gentle and Zen and Deepak Chopra he was, when they talk about him to non Muslims. Do you get what I mean?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #11 - January 03, 2013, 07:17 PM

    Yeezevee,
    I’ve read your argument several times now questioning the historicity of the personality Muhammad as we know him today. I’m not sure I totally buy it. While I have no doubts that many stories concerning the self proclaimed prophet were invented later on, I personally see no reason to believe that there was not a delusional Arab merchant who believed he was a doomsday prophet.

    The story general story of Muhammad is not particularly flattering and seems unlikely to have been fabricated later on for any reason. The guy contemplated suicide, his own clansmen thought he was insane, a liar, or both, he lost battles, he performed no miracles, he had serious domestic problems, and after he died, most people abandoned his teachings and had to be subdued militarily. I see no reason why anyone would invent a fictional character like Muhammad.

    Furthermore, I have not seen any credible evidence to date that sheds light on any other ideas as to how the Arab empire could have united itself and conquered the world outside of the Muhammad narrative.



    Hi HM - You may have missed the thread about Tom Holland's book/documentary  which iirc espouses the idea that the Prophet did not exist. I can't locate the threrad right now, (don't remember which section) but someone else may know. Anyway it is Tom Holland and the book is 'Shadow of the Sword'.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #12 - January 03, 2013, 08:14 PM

    Tom Holland's book does not say that Muhammad did not exist.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #13 - January 03, 2013, 08:16 PM

    Hi HM - You may have missed the thread about Tom Holland's book/documentary  which iirc espouses the idea that the Prophet did not exist. I can't locate the threrad right now, (don't remember which section) but someone else may know. Anyway it is Tom Holland and the book is 'Shadow of the Sword'.


    Hey Devilsadvokat,

    While I haven't read the book yet, I have heard some interviews with the author. I have also seen the documentary Islam: The Untold Story. Again, I'm not against the idea that Muhammad did not exist, I just tend to think that the evidence that is put forward in support of that proposition is rather weak.

    Firstly, a lot of it stems not from any evidence to the contrary, but rather from an alleged lack of evidence to support the existence of Muhammad. While as a skeptic, I do believe that the burden of proof lies upon the party making the assertion, I also believe that there has to be some sort of counter narrative--an explanation as how else things could have got to where they are-- given if you are going to dismiss a historical claim. The more that I can poke holes in your counter narrative, the less likely I am to believe it.

    So, for example, I haven't heard of any historians doubting the existence of Yazid bin Muawiyah bin Abi Sufyan, nor the fact that he was the third Caliph of the Umayad dynasty. I've heard no one doubting that Yazid was at war with Hussein and Ibn Zubair after his father's death.

    Now, Yazid clearly claimed to be the son of Mu'awiyah, and the grandson of Abu Sufyan. The seerah attests to the fact that an Abu Sufyan existed, who opposed Muhammad until the conquest of Makkah, and who had a son named Muawiyah who went on to become the governor of Syria and the Caliph after Muhammad's death. That's the Umayyad story and the seerah backs it up.

    Hussein clearly claimed to be the son of Ali, and the grandson of Muhammad. Even as bitter enemies, the stories of these two men corroborate each other and concur logically with the seerah. How do we account for this if the character of Muhammad was not founded in reality?

    Another argument I've heard is the lack of place names in the Qur'an linking it with Makkah. That is simply not true. The names Makkah, Yathrib, Arafaat, badr, and Hunayn all appear in the Qur'an, and these places are well known in the Hijaz. Furthermore, the context in which these places are mentioned implies that the listeners were very familiar with where they were and must have known the stories behind why they were being mentioned (battles, treaties, pilgrimage sites, etc.) The lack of detail makes it seem unlikely to me that these place names were inserted later on.

    As for the origin of the Qur'an, I have no reservations accepting that Muhammad copied his "revelations" from earlier sources, both oral and written. Again, this does not conflict with the narrative of the seerah. Muhammad was not from "the middle of the desert," but was a city dweller. Even if we accept that the importance of Makkah was exaggerated, there were definitely Christian and Jewish Arabs across the Arabian Peninsula, from the Fertile Crescent to the lands of Yemen. As a merchant, trading Yemeni Jewish gold and Frankincense to be used in the churches of Byzantium,  for instance, it is unlikely that Muhammad would not have come into contact with other faiths. Muhammad had 40 years before he started claiming prophet hood to spend a week or two here and a month or two there listening in on Jewish folklore and Christian legends. He was a loner, he was intrigued by the world around him. It doesn't seem strange to me that he would have done so.

    I don't think we need to dismiss him from the pages of history to dismiss the faith he preached as false.
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #14 - January 03, 2013, 09:57 PM

    This is really insightful HM.

    The 'making up' part is going on now, when Muslims living in the UK or USA try to turn Muhammad into a kind of cross between the Buddha and Mahatma Gandhi, with all these stories about how gentle and Zen and Deepak Chopra he was, when they talk about him to non Muslims. Do you get what I mean?


    Absolutely. I love to point out how, if you pick the right stories, you can also make Hitler, Muammar Gaddafi, and Al Capone seem tender, kind hearted, and benevolent to those around them. Calling them "models of perfect character" or "mercies for all the worlds" would be a much harder proposition to assert, however.

    And back on the topic of early apostates, It was not only Abdullah Ibn Saad that left Islam during the prophet's life. Check out his Hadith in Bukhari:

    Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814:

    Narrated Anas:

    "There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him." Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them." They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them." They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground)."

    Now, it's up to you if you really want to believe that the earth vomited this guy's body back up out of the ground, but I think it is very telling that we have the most reliable Muslim source after the Qur'an admitting that even during the prophet's life, some of his followers knew it was all BS and openly bailed ship.

    What is even more telling to me is the amount of time and emphasis the Qur'an spends on threatening apostates and hypocrites with hell. This let's me know that the early Muslim community was running rife with folks who either secretly doubted Muhammad or openly abandoned him. Why else would the Qur'an need to focus on them so much? The Qur'an only speaks about direct, known threats to Muhammad's authority: Jews, Christians, Pagans, Hypocrites, and Apostates. You'll never hear anything about the Buddhists, the Eskimo, the Shinto, or the Vikings. (Though that would have seriously helped Muhammad's claims of Prophethood!)  These free thinking apostates who weren't afraid to call Mo's bluff on the whole eternal damnation thing must have really been a huge headache for him.





  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #15 - January 03, 2013, 11:31 PM

    Quote
    but I think it is very telling that we have the most reliable Muslim source after the Qur'an admitting that even during the prophet's life, some of his followers knew it was all BS and openly bailed ship


    What about the Ridda wars? Has any other religion had to fight a war against its own followers after they tried to leave en masse?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #16 - January 03, 2013, 11:33 PM

    Quote
    What is even more telling to me is the amount of time and emphasis the Qur'an spends on threatening apostates and hypocrites with hell. This let's me know that the early Muslim community was running rife with folks who either secretly doubted Muhammad or openly abandoned him. Why else would the Qur'an need to focus on them so much? The Qur'an only speaks about direct, known threats to Muhammad's authority: Jews, Christians, Pagans, Hypocrites, and Apostates. You'll never hear anything about the Buddhists, the Eskimo, the Shinto, or the Vikings. (Though that would have seriously helped Muhammad's claims of Prophethood!)  These free thinking apostates who weren't afraid to call Mo's bluff on the whole eternal damnation thing must have really been a huge headache for him.


    *high five*

    *man hug*


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #17 - January 03, 2013, 11:41 PM

    ^

    It's officially a bromance   Cheesy

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #18 - January 04, 2013, 04:22 AM


    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #19 - January 04, 2013, 06:52 AM

    Quote
    Once Makkah was overrun, their chief, Abu Sufyan, who was definitely clever and cunning, probably advised his sons just to lay low until after Muhammad died and to revolt against his gang of thugs and reclaim their title as rulers. Interestingly enogh, that is exactly the Shi’ah account as well—and I used to be a salafi.


    Gosh I have been thinking about this SO much lately. I'm an ex-Shia, and as a closet atheist, so I still attend Muharram lectures and so on. I find it crazy how Sunnis ignore Ashura when it seems to be the slay-fest of their holy prophet's family.
    I'm not Muslim any more, so I'm not saying Shia is right, but Shias make a huge effort to "expose" what happened after the death of the prophet, whereas Sunnis like to talk about his glory days. The claim is that a lot of Islam was changed after his death, and Sunnis follow this version as opposed to his true religion. If you present the story of Ashura to a Sunni who didn't know about the sect split, would they chnage their opinion on Mu'awaiya and start practising Shia rituals?

    Alright so for that to work, the assumption is that Mo was amazing and his message was worthy. But lets forget that for the sake of the point.  Thinking hard

    The more Shia lectures I attend, the more this point annoys me. For some reason, to hear an ex Salafi say this is comforting...this is such a Shia argument. Especially the la3n (hate) on Yazeed.

    Yeez I always read your points about the Quran/Mo because as I told you, I'm very interested in this topic, I wish there was a compilation of links that deal with this topic. I wouldn't sleep at all then lol.



    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #20 - January 04, 2013, 07:09 AM

    Yeez I always read your points about the Quran/Mo because as I told you, I'm very interested in this topic, I wish there was a compilation of links that deal with this topic. I wouldn't sleep at all then lol.

    Jila first thing is first., No..Noo..,     You must go to sleep., Not sure where you are,  but if it is 12.01 Am.. please drink some milk and go to bed.........  we can not function  WITHOUT SLEEP..WITHOUT FOOD..
     
    Quote
    ..I find it crazy how Sunnis ignore Ashura when it seems to be the slay-fest of their holy prophet's family.

    I'm not Muslim any more, so I'm not saying Shia is right, but Shias make a huge effort to "expose" what happened after the death of the prophet, whereas Sunnis like to talk about his glory days. The claim is that a lot of Islam was changed after his death, and Sunnis follow this version as opposed to his true religion. If you present the story of Ashura to a Sunni who didn't know about the sect split, would they chnage their opinion on Mu'awaiya and start practising Shia rituals?

    Incidentally, although I was not brought up as REAL Muslim but my whole lot of family  is related to Shia Islam,  

    Quote
    The more Shia lectures I attend, the more this point annoys me. For some reason, to hear an ex Salafi say this is comforting...this is such a Shia argument. Especially the la3n (hate) on Yazeed.

     Karbala's Martyrs The Story Of Ashura


    but Shia Islam is More foolish than Sunni islam ., The fact we regurgitate that BRUTAL STORY (not sure how much is real)  is a perfect example of PLASTICITY and STUPIDITY OF HUMAN BRAIN,  Persia with all its wonderful human rights history and had  much more powerful philosophical thought before Islam.,  Beduion Islam usurped whole nation and erased Persian history  with a blink of an eye with a STUPIDEST  Karbala's Martyrs   STORY..    

    Could you please tell me that story here as you understood it ..as a kid??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #21 - January 05, 2013, 11:05 AM

    Quote
    although I was not brought up as REAL Muslim

     You mean like you had a secular upbringing?

    As a kid? I didn't know the story, only that the prophet's family wasn't allowed to drink water, then someone chopped off their limbs, and those were the bad guys. I learned the real story in detail as an adult but by then I was already moving away from Islam. It's actually a sad story, but wtf, the Texas Chainsaw Massacre is sad and scary too, should we start beating ourselves for that too? rofl

    Quote
    but Shia Islam is More foolish than Sunni islam

    Have you seen Iraqi Shia culture? It is freaking OBSESSED with death and mourning, 3 months of official morning, then just constant remembering throughout the year, with a reading of the events and declaration of hate to Yazeed every Thursday for "ziyara".
    If Shias didn't cut themselves open every Muharam I could easily disagree with your statement, but unfortunately...that tiny little problem lingers and doesn't look like it;s going away soon.
    Also, the fact that Sunnis are constantly bombing and murdering Shias makes them think that they have to fight for Hussein harder or something, "every day is Ashura and every land is Karbala". So depressing.

    Quote
    Beduion Islam usurped whole nation and erased Persian history  with a blink of an eye with a STUPIDEST  Karbala's Martyrs   STORY

    You know I have a funny kind of hope for Iran. I think they are the most secular people around that area, so if they can have a revolution or something...Just need to get rid of this poisonous propaganda of nuking Iran because of their dumb little government.

    *shrug* it's a hopeless feeling.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #22 - January 06, 2013, 02:16 AM

    The claim is that a lot of Islam was changed after his death, and Sunnis follow this version as opposed to his true religion. If you present the story of Ashura to a Sunni who didn't know about the sect split, would they chnage their opinion on Mu'awaiya and start practising Shia rituals?


    That feeling when you realize that religion has less to do with rationality and more to do with indoctrination and cultural inertia.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #23 - January 06, 2013, 02:22 PM

    I often hear from pro-Islam websites, that Islam is united and unchanged unlike Christianity therefore it is truth. If I ever bring up Sunni vs Shia is that statement nullified. I hardly call that unification under Islam. How many sects of Islam are there anyway? I only know Sunni, Shia, Salafi, Ahmedis? 

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #24 - January 08, 2013, 03:35 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px2MbPo88w8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Skip to about 9 minutes for some crazy ass prophecies.


    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #25 - January 08, 2013, 03:40 AM

    Quote
    I often hear from pro-Islam websites, that Islam is united and unchanged unlike Christianity therefore it is truth.


    Such propagandists. Sunnis have a lot to answer for, for not speaking up against minority Muslim persecution.

    Muslims like to brag bout how they treated "Ahlul Kitab" as citiziens under Islamic rule, and yet Shias, as Muslims were persecuted and murdered, and their persecutors are labelled heroes (Saladin). They suck up to Jews and Christians relentlessly while treating their own like crap.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #26 - January 10, 2013, 10:44 PM

    Tom Holland's book does not say that Muhammad did not exist.



    Ok, he does not go as far as to say that but he does take note of the fact that there is almost no textual support for it until two centuries later. I think.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Abdullah ibn Saad
     Reply #27 - January 11, 2013, 01:39 AM

    I often hear from pro-Islam websites, that Islam is united and unchanged unlike Christianity therefore it is truth. If I ever bring up Sunni vs Shia is that statement nullified. I hardly call that unification under Islam. How many sects of Islam are there anyway? I only know Sunni, Shia, Salafi, Ahmedis? 

     

    Ahmadis are to islam what mormonism is to christianity plus no other sect accepts them so I would count that a separate religion. 

    This chart gives the breakdown of the islamic sects



    Note:  Salafi and wahabi are practically the same sect. 

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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