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 Topic: Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?

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  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #30 - February 22, 2013, 06:21 PM

    Don't you just love the crusader who comes, claims you are wrong, doesn't provide the 'proofs' of why you are wrong, and then says you're wrong to ask for it, and even more they are a bit too busy to tell you why?  Grin


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #31 - February 22, 2013, 06:55 PM

    ^IKR. Srsly, talk about a hit and run apologist Roll Eyes
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #32 - February 22, 2013, 07:11 PM

    Eww this thread just reminded me of that "Hvsmrspct" guy. He came here, made this passionate, principled case for how great Islam is on women's rights and asked us to respond. When we responded, politely, intelligently, and quite warmly, he accused us of attacking him and being dishonest. He hasn't been back since. I wonder if he thought we were just your typical westerners who don't know what Islam REALLY SAYS about women.
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #33 - February 22, 2013, 07:25 PM

    My views on women were pretty much the same views I had now. 

    I mean I was a muslim only up till the age of 16 so my views were just normal. I wasn't aware back then of Islam's attitude towards women.

     

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #34 - March 25, 2013, 11:52 AM

    Pretty much the same views, perhaps slightly more open now though.  If anything, what changed the most was my views towards LGBTs.

    "If a monster existed, it was buried deep within."
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #35 - March 25, 2013, 12:23 PM

    Ok so has leaving Islam changed your views on how women should be treated?
     


    No.

    - Has your attitude towards the role of women changed? Or did you grow up where everyone was equal?


    No and Yes.

    Did you have female siblings or relatives that you thought were being treated unfairly, growing up?


    I can't think of any female relatives being treated unfairly while growing up.

    Did you ever question this and what were the justifications you got?


    I did query that of course knowing that Islam teaches woman should be covered and stuff like that, I never thought of the covering as anything bad and I kind of thought that it could reduce promisquity but then I heard of how one woman witness is not enough of evidence in the court of justice and stuff which made no sense at all to me, I had no excuse on this subjects, I just ignored them, willful ignorance.


    Do you think there will be difference with how you treat your wife, than when you were following Islam?(Such as demanding a certain dress, and involvement in finances etc.)


    Not really, I have actually thought that woman should deal with the money issue, why do I have to worry about it, let her deal with the household issues lol.
     


    Did you ever encourage a woman in your family to do something she was prohibited to do under Islamic gender roles?


    there has been no need for this.

    The only people in my family who can be considered religious are my mother and my grandmother, my mother prays 5 times a day but doesn't wear a Hijab, she goes to work without Hijab, I really donät understand my mother, she is kind of weird, I do sometimes discuss religion with her and I did mention to her that under Islamic law it is ok to marry more than one wife and of course she consideres this disgusting and then I mentioned that to her that u can have slaves and I told her that the prohpet said this and it is in the Quran and she said I don't care who said it, that is wrong and disgusting but she still keeps praying, I ask her why, she just says , it makes her feel good, she feels there is something out there who can hear her prayers and who could help, she doesn't make any difference between Christians and Muslims, she has always basically tought me that Being Muslim and Christian is basically the same thing and she says she has never understood the fuss around I AM A MUSLIM U R A CHRISTIAN KUFFAR, she says we all turn to the same God but in different name.

    I really don't understand her delusions though, she is a fairly intelligent person, she is a Mathematician, teaches Mathematics, she used to prepare my brother for Math Olympiads where he won 3rd place in Math competitions in the country and many other achievments, whatever, it is all a mystery to me, I don't understand why is she doing this, I asked her about hell once, she said except people like Hitler, Stalin and some other base bastards who have caused a lot of pain no one deserves to burn in Hell, she said people go to Heaven on basis of their merits even a nonbeliever who doesn't believe in God will go to heaven if he has done good deeds and a person who prays and believes and in the other hand does bad things will go to hell to cleanse himself.

    So yeah this is the only thing I have tried with my mother, I have tried to discuss her something controversial like Slavery or polygamy and she doesn't support any of this, I think u can say that this is me encouraging her or proding some thoughts that might make her say, YO THAT IS NONSENSE and she did say that.

    Anyways, my mom being a weirdo is nothing new, that is why I love her so much.

    About my grandmother, I don't think she knows much about Islam, she hasn't read the Quran she just thinks that God is awesome and will save us all from pain and suffering.

  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #36 - March 31, 2013, 11:44 AM

    I come from a religious muslim family but I always had flags coming up when I used to read about women in Islam. But cos sexuality is so taboo , you can't even talk to the Imam about things like the 72 virgins, or how in Jannat, women will wear clothes that you can see through (there's a hadith about this) and I kept thinking "what do the women get?"

    The Quran itself is directed towards men, it tells them how to treat women, rather than telling men and women, this is how you act.

    I've always had a respect for women, though Islamically, declaring as such would get you ridiculed or told or caned (unfortunately not by a hijabi dominatrix!!). I remember just after the Taliban got in power in Afghan, I was talking to a muslim friend about their treatment of women, and he said to me, "they shouldn't even be allowed out, if your aunt comes in front of you without hijab, you can slap her and tell her to cover up!"

    Needless to say, i found it pretty difficult to relate to his ideas about apostates!!

    "Dont put people in a box, the only people shaped box is a coffin"

    "If God wanted us to believe, he would have given divine guidance to us all"

    "Religion the ultimate hypnosis, the art of convincing people of a fantasy that they believe all their lives"
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #37 - December 01, 2013, 01:48 AM

    I was raised as a Muslim from a fairly religious yet relaxed family. Not once my parents or grandparents echoed negative traits about women. Not a single woman in my family and extended family has been negativity treated. Hell, my dad cares more for my sister far more than he loves any of us guys, lol. Almost all of them are well educated with jobs.

    Personally I find it quite surprising when I read posts where females are treated poorly in their family. Coincidentally, my aunt was treated very poorly by her ex-husband (verbally and physically). He was an alcoholic. Go figure. Luckily my dad punched his lights out.

    Very surprising responses in this thread. And a rather sad reflection.
  • Re: Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #38 - December 01, 2013, 01:49 AM

    No.

    No and Yes.

    I can't think of any female relatives being treated unfairly while growing up.

    I did query that of course knowing that Islam teaches woman should be covered and stuff like that, I never thought of the covering as anything bad and I kind of thought that it could reduce promisquity but then I heard of how one woman witness is not enough of evidence in the court of justice and stuff which made no sense at all to me, I had no excuse on this subjects, I just ignored them, willful ignorance.


    Not really, I have actually thought that woman should deal with the money issue, why do I have to worry about it, let her deal with the household issues lol.
    there has been no need for this.

    The only people in my family who can be considered religious are my mother and my grandmother, my mother prays 5 times a day but doesn't wear a Hijab, she goes to work without Hijab, I really don?t understand my mother, she is kind of weird, I do sometimes discuss religion with her and I did mention to her that under Islamic law it is ok to marry more than one wife and of course she consideres this disgusting and then I mentioned that to her that u can have slaves and I told her that the prohpet said this and it is in the Quran and she said I don't care who said it, that is wrong and disgusting but she still keeps praying, I ask her why, she just says , it makes her feel good, she feels there is something out there who can hear her prayers and who could help, she doesn't make any difference between Christians and Muslims, she has always basically tought me that Being Muslim and Christian is basically the same thing and she says she has never understood the fuss around I AM A MUSLIM U R A CHRISTIAN KUFFAR, she says we all turn to the same God but in different name.

    I really don't understand her delusions though, she is a fairly intelligent person, she is a Mathematician, teaches Mathematics, she used to prepare my brother for Math Olympiads where he won 3rd place in Math competitions in the country and many other achievments, whatever, it is all a mystery to me, I don't understand why is she doing this, I asked her about hell once, she said except people like Hitler, Stalin and some other base bastards who have caused a lot of pain no one deserves to burn in Hell, she said people go to Heaven on basis of their merits even a nonbeliever who doesn't believe in God will go to heaven if he has done good deeds and a person who prays and believes and in the other hand does bad things will go to hell to cleanse himself.

    So yeah this is the only thing I have tried with my mother, I have tried to discuss her something controversial like Slavery or polygamy and she doesn't support any of this, I think u can say that this is me encouraging her or proding some thoughts that might make her say, YO THAT IS NONSENSE and she did say that.

    Anyways, my mom being a weirdo is nothing new, that is why I love her so much.

    About my grandmother, I don't think she knows much about Islam, she hasn't read the Quran she just thinks that God is awesome and will save us all from pain and suffering.

    Because religion gives people comfort. Let your mum believes what she wants as long as it makes her happy.
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #39 - December 01, 2013, 06:04 AM

    I was raised as a Muslim from a fairly religious yet relaxed family. Not once my parents or grandparents echoed negative traits about women. Not a single woman in my family and extended family has been negativity treated. Hell, my dad cares more for my sister far more than he loves any of us guys, lol. Almost all of them are well educated with jobs.

    Personally I find it quite surprising when I read posts where females are treated poorly in their family. Coincidentally, my aunt was treated very poorly by her ex-husband (verbally and physically). He was an alcoholic. Go figure. Luckily my dad punched his lights out.

    Very surprising responses in this thread. And a rather sad reflection.


    Sounds like a nice family. Lucky you. Not all of us have been so lucky.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #40 - December 01, 2013, 11:20 AM

    I was raised as a Muslim from a fairly religious yet relaxed family. Not once my parents or grandparents echoed negative traits about women. Not a single woman in my family and extended family has been negativity treated. Hell, my dad cares more for my sister far more than he loves any of us guys, lol. Almost all of them are well educated with jobs.

    Personally I find it quite surprising when I read posts where females are treated poorly in their family. Coincidentally, my aunt was treated very poorly by her ex-husband (verbally and physically). He was an alcoholic. Go figure. Luckily my dad punched his lights out.

    Very surprising responses in this thread. And a rather sad reflection.

    Hello Albert Wesker .. How are you doing? welcome to CEMB.,  

    Well not only your family., there are MILLIONS OF MUSLIM families that are as good as yours or even better and they treat their women folks as good as your family members treat/take care or even they may do better. Well., That is wonderful to know but on this
    Quote
    Not once my parents or grandparents echoed negative traits about women.

     suppose if  I say.,   "your parents/grand parents NEVER echoed negative traits about women  not beacuse of Islam but in-spite of Islam"

    How would you respond to that? I mean folks that are good are good irrespective of their religious background. In other words they don't care what allah says/what books says but they guide their actions and their day to day life with Humanism as the core philosophy to guide them..  Their religious stuff is just for fun/rituals/festivals  and parties..

    any way glad to read your post.. please continue..


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #41 - December 01, 2013, 12:00 PM

    This would have been a great and interesting discussion if Mr Hvsmrspct had responded. The truth is, most men who try to defend the mysogyny that is found in Islam try to justify it by the principle "equal but not the same". I've never really understood this since i doesn't make sense.

    My husband told me the reason he became religious was when his friends challenged and questioned Islam which drove him to find out more about Islam. "Had Islam really opressed women I wouldn't have been Muslim" he told me once when I was having a "low-iman" period (which ended up in my apostasy). The problem is that he really BELIEVES that all the unfair, sexist and mysogynistic treatment of women really isn't unequal.... "equal but not the same" as you remember.

    But now and then I can see a paradox both in him and other Muslim men. In the end, he wants me to be his partner, to work and contribute to the hosehold. He loves it when I take charge and responsibility for typical "masculine" work. But it's hard for him to reconcile this with the fact that my only Islamic duty is to fuck him (sorry for the crude language), cook his meals and see to that the house is somewhat clean. And obey, which I have never been good at might I say  piggy It's both sad and amusing to see him struggle with what he actually finds to be better IRL and what his religion says is "better".

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #42 - December 01, 2013, 12:07 PM

    I don't know about that. One could quite easily argue that there are plenty and plenty of verses in the Quran and Hadith which talk about good treatment, excellent manners, never to lie, never to talk negatively about others, never to fight etc. This is the manner which my family was raised in Islam - especially since me and my siblings used to fight a lot when we were younger! Not once I've ever been to treat someone differently based on their gender. Not once I've been told to disassociate myself with non-Muslims (although they advised me to have Muslim friends as they are more likely to be good people with a focus on academics vs the party lifestyle). I would personally say that my religion has shaped much of who I am and what I have achieved. But yes, you are right. Millions of Muslim families are like this. I'm no outlier here!

    But this is why I personally don't deplore Islam or religion in general. You could abuse any philosophy to fuel your desires. I don't think I will ever become an 'Ex-Muslim'. An agonstic Muslim is perhaps a closer definition and I will still continue to associate myself with my family and friends. I just don't know whether this religion is real or not; hence my registration to this forum.

    edit: oh shit my younger bro saw this tab open dammit lol. I don't want anyone to think I've left Islam. Although he never prays so I don't know... Lol.
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #43 - December 01, 2013, 12:46 PM

    I don't know about that. One could quite easily argue that there are plenty and plenty of verses in the Quran and Hadith which talk about good treatment, excellent manners, never to lie, never to talk negatively about others, never to fight etc.


    Then I would ask you how do you feel about the ayahs that say men are created to be the betters of women? Or that women are deficient in intelligence? How about the fact that men are allowed to strike their wives should they disobey or display an attitude the husbands don't agree with? What about the ayah supporting men and their right to take up with female slaves against their wishes?

    Do the Quran and hadith have plenty of positive things? Sure. But do they really matter? Can you ignore how badly women are treated in Islam? Not to mention everything else that's wrong with this religion? I'm glad that your parents raised you to see your sisters and other women as your equals, but that isn't Islam.

    edit: as usual, yeezevee said this much better than I could.  whistling2

    "so now, if you leave (Allahu A?lam is you already have) what will u do??? go out and show ur body to all the men??? sleep with countless men?? maashaAllah if you think think this is freedom or womens right then may Allah guide you to that which is correct."
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #44 - December 01, 2013, 01:36 PM

    Of course these are issues I have with Islam. I find it difficult to believe that a merciful and just God would allow such things.

    Frankly, the ability to take female slaves against the wishes of a wife and have sex with them is tantamount to adultery, isn't it? Freemixing is apparently a great sin but owning slaves and having sex with them is 'legal under Shariah'. Hypocritical. It's something that has never made sense to me, and it never will.

    Regarding hitting your wife, some Muslims have told me the verse is misinterpreted. Others say it's correct but only with a toothbrush. And others say the Prophet never hit a woman. If the latter is true, then that is good. But yes, this is another verse in the Quran I take issue with.

    I don't recall any verse which claims men are superior to women, except they are their protectors and maintainers? Perhaps the issue here is people take this verse so literally versus taking it at face value. In all honesty, the role of a husband is to protect is wife and family. Perhaps some of you will disagree, but I don't think men and women are equal. However, everyone is entitled to equal treatment, the same legal rights and should be allowed to pursue whatever interest they desire. My interactions with Muslims on the internet has shown me how many of them cling to age old values, such as forbidding the wife to have any job except to be a homemaker.

    It seems to me that many Muslims are under the impression nothing in Islam can be changed and it's completely perfect, because God said so.

    Ex Hijabi, I really don't think the vast majority of women are treated badly under Islam. This really is a hyperbolic statement. Perhaps only in Saudi Arabia where women don't have the same legal rights as men, but I think most Muslim women are fine. Of course there will always be isolated incidences where Muslim women are treated badly but the same could be said of any other religion, race or country.
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #45 - December 01, 2013, 01:51 PM

    .............   An agonstic Muslim is perhaps a closer definition and I will still continue to associate myself with my family and friends. I just don't know whether this religion is real or not; hence my registration to this forum.

    Hmm.. agnostic Muslim.,  what is that??  and  Albert who is Ex-Muslim in your view ?

    Quote
    edit: oh shit my younger bro saw this tab open dammit lol.  . Lol.

     Cheesy  you don't know how close you are to be an ex-Muslim Albert

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #46 - December 01, 2013, 01:55 PM

    ...........: as usual, yeezevee said this much better than I could.  whistling2

    Hi..Ex Hijabi ... I don't know what to say to you., but you are the first person who said that on this forum. 100s of people on forums said "They don't understand a word I say/wrote"  

     So There must be  something wrong with you Ex Hijabi. ..lol..    I am sure  Albert Wesker  do not understand what I say

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #47 - December 01, 2013, 02:14 PM



    Ex Hijabi, I really don't think the vast majority of women are treated badly under Islam. This really is a hyperbolic statement. Perhaps only in Saudi Arabia where women don't have the same legal rights as men, but I think most Muslim women are fine. Of course there will always be isolated incidences where Muslim women are treated badly but the same could be said of any other religion, race or country.


    You have mentioned how nice your family is in regard to women. I have to inform you that this looks like an exception, in my eyes.
    Women are marginalized, in Shariah, Quran, Hadith. This is inherent in Islam. This affects all populations living an Islamic life.
    Yes, you are right, this can be said of many other cultures, races, and religions. But not all those other cultures and religions have it hardcoded into their religious doctrine that women are deficient. Some do. Islam is one of them.




    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #48 - December 01, 2013, 02:57 PM

    It seems to me that many Muslims are under the impression nothing in Islam can be changed and it's completely perfect, because God said so.


    Isn't that the whole idea behind religion?
     
    Ex Hijabi, I really don't think the vast majority of women are treated badly under Islam. This really is a hyperbolic statement. Perhaps only in Saudi Arabia where women don't have the same legal rights as men, but I think most Muslim women are fine. Of course there will always be isolated incidences where Muslim women are treated badly but the same could be said of any other religion, race or country.


    It's not just Saudi Arabia. Regardless, my point wasn't that the majority of Muslim women are treated badly, but that Islam treats Muslim women poorly. And Muslim women not having the same legal rights as men is a big problem and doesn't mean they're fine.

    btw, welcome to the forums!  Smiley

    Hi..Ex Hijabi ... I don't know what to say to you., but you are the first person who said that on this forum. 100s of people on forums said "They don't understand a word I say/wrote"  

     So There must be  something wrong with you Ex Hijabi. ..lol..    I am sure  Albert Wesker  do not understand what I say

    with best wishes
    yeezevee




    hahahaha, I'll take it. It wouldn't be the first time someone said there was something wrong with me.  Afro I understand your posts and you present your arguments much better than I can.

    "so now, if you leave (Allahu A?lam is you already have) what will u do??? go out and show ur body to all the men??? sleep with countless men?? maashaAllah if you think think this is freedom or womens right then may Allah guide you to that which is correct."
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #49 - December 01, 2013, 03:06 PM

    .............. you present your arguments much better than I can.

    ...Nope.. you indeed selected a wonderful picture to represent you

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #50 - December 01, 2013, 03:37 PM

    Hmm.. agnostic Muslim.,  what is that??  and  Albert who is Ex-Muslim in your view ?
     Cheesy  you don't know how close you are to be an ex-Muslim Albert

    I guess I am not like most members of the forum which are completely detached from the religion and/or religious people. As I said, I don't think I'll associate myself as an Ex-Muslim. At worst, I'm a Muslim who simply doesn't practice.

    It's strange. I used to pray 5 times a day. For the past year or two, I haven't bothered to wake up for fajr. For the past couple of days, I haven't deliberately prayed on purpose for the first time.

    If Islam is real, I hope God forgives me and grants me heaven. Who doesn't want there to be life after death, eh? Heh. Ah well...
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #51 - December 01, 2013, 04:07 PM

    Albert

    Well-said.

    You're just like the vast majority of people in this respect - whether Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim or whatever in terms of your family/cultural/national background - who have some sort of nominal "attachment" to a religious tradition, partake in some communal activities that they find valuable or enriching, or enjoy a good knees-up or a feast at festive times, but don't let stupid issues of dogma, politics and power get in the way of being, for want of a better phrase, a broadly secular universalist. I realise that in some contexts this can be awkward - but I guess that this doesn't really apply to you.

    Personally, I find the "ex" designation a tad odd - we don't generally apply it to, say, Christians or Jews who are areligious or without belief. Perhaps it's just a linguistic "artefact" of the culture wars that rage around us.
  • Question for guys, has leaving Islam changed your attitudes towards women?
     Reply #52 - December 01, 2013, 05:05 PM

    Couldn't have put it better myself Joseph.
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