Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 06:50 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 20, 2024, 12:02 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
April 19, 2024, 04:40 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
April 19, 2024, 12:50 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 19, 2024, 04:17 AM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
April 18, 2024, 06:39 PM

New Britain
April 18, 2024, 05:41 PM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate

 (Read 20125 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     OP - November 22, 2012, 06:11 AM

    Let's post here articles that are truly, genuinely striking a balanced critique of both sides, while acknowledging the validity of the reasonable claims of people on both sides. This is not the place for debate but a thread for collecting stories, articles, blog posts, reports and thoughtful analyses that make a genuine effort to understand BOTH sides of this seemingly overwhelming and complex issue.



    Here are a couple of posts on the same blog:

    How to Support Israel Without Being Racist

    How to Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic



    This Land Is Mine (awesome animated video)

    ^Made by an American Jewish woman.
    Also check out her blog with the: Who’s Killing Who? A Viewer’s Guide


    Feel free to share other articles and stories and anything that is about striking that nuanced balance between understanding both sides of this issue. No preaching for one side's righteous victimhood over another. Only very balanced things here, please. Use yeezeevee's thread or start another one if you want to only post things that are heavily biased towards one way or the other.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #1 - November 22, 2012, 06:22 AM

    Good idea. Speaking of Yeezevee: if said gentlemen wishes to post in this thread it would be appreciated if he could keep his posts brief, focused and lucid. I know he can do it, so there's no reason not to.  Afro

    I know I already posted it in another thread, but I think this is a very good article:

    Gaza crisis: The legal position of Israel and Hamas

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #2 - November 23, 2012, 05:55 AM

    Posting here nesrin's post from the other thread.

    i really liked the video "this land is mine" brilliant ..

    but since we're posting articles.. this one (if it hasn't been posted yet) is pretty interesting.. all about the competition of pics and who has the most bloody babies..
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/11/16/the-israeli-palestinian-politics-of-a-bloodied-childs-photo/

    a snippet :

    Was it posed? Was it populist showmanship? Though anyone who has spent time covering Egyptian politicians might doubt their ability to elaborately stage a photo op with this degree of precision.

    The mere fact that we’re asking these questions shows the degree to which images of human suffering in Israel-Palestinian violence are treated as necessarily, even primarily, political; as pieces of evidence to bring before the court of global public opinion. The photos are evaluated on their political strengths and weaknesses: Is the Egyptian prime minister leaning unnaturally into the frame? Do we know for sure that the 11-month-old son of a journalist was killed by an Israeli munition? Was Netanyahu’s tweet too strong?

    Implicit in these debates, still raging on social media, is the assumption that the photos and the tragedies they represent are inherently political. You might find yourself wondering who politicized them first — who is more to blame — but that question, though natural, is in many ways an extension of the same bickering. The accusations of misusing photos to tar the other side, of faking injuries to generate outside sympathy are all part of a wider, shared assumption that the world would feel differently if only everyone knew how badly “we” suffered, and how much “they” are faking it.

    In this thinking, each new image is an opportunity to finally show the world the truth, as well as a danger that the “other side” will continue to distort. That mutual emphasis on blame, as well as the deep mistrust behind it, are of course just one small part of the larger and more complicated Israel-Palestine conflict. And that conflict, it seems, even extends to the conversations around photos of children killed in its long and bloody course.



    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #3 - August 06, 2014, 02:13 PM

    bump

    I see this thread didn't get very far before but maybe it's worth another try.
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #4 - August 06, 2014, 10:54 PM

    It probably didn't get very far because nobody wants a balanced view. People just want to get emotive and righteous about their preferred position, while ignoring other positions, and other equally important crises. I have seriously considered starting a thread about this: what exactly is it about the Israel/Palestine thing that sends people over the top? It's an interesting question, because those same people often have little or no reaction to other international issues that are just as brutal, or even more so. It seems to be something specific to Israel/Palestine. Although the reasons are obvious in the cases of religious nutters from all three Abrahamic religions, they are not obvious in the case of less religious or non-religious people.

    Of course, such a thread would probably turn into a flame war PDQ. Tongue

    Anyway, this turned up today. The author is ex-IDF and not at all impressed with Israel's recent tactics in Gaza, but is realistic enough to assume that there will most likely be conflict in future and is concerned with how it should be conducted. This also raises issues that should be considered for UN conventions on armed conflict in general.

    My time in Israeli Defence Force tells me the level of casualties in Gaza is avoidable

    Quote
    In the 1982 Lebanon war I served as an Israeli artillery forward observer, my task to pinpoint the PLO’s positions and call in fire from our artillery units. We stayed in the evacuated Al Jamous School, overlooking Beirut. The routine was simple enough: I would pop into the classroom next door from where I would collect the co-ordinates and description of my military targets: “a military camp”, “a mortar”, “an antenna”. I would then return to my room and, looking out of the windows, I would direct our fire on the targets.

    <snip>

    Now to Gaza where, like in 1982 Beirut, the Israeli army is using overwhelming military power to locate and destroy Hamas’s tunnels, to stop them firing rockets into Israel – and also to put pressure on the Gazans (as we had pressured the Beirutis) so they turn their backs on Hamas as a political force.

    In the process, just as in Lebanon, hundreds of innocent Palestinians have been killed and parts of Gaza, as some sections of 1982 Beirut, have been turned into wastelands. Even worst, UN schools in Gaza which are shelters to more than 250,000 refugees, and their hospitals have also been hit by Israeli artillery and bombs.
    Wayward artillery

    Can anything be done so that in the next round between Israel and Hamas, which is inevitable, there would be fewer innocent civilian casualties?

    The answer to this question is yes. It is indeed possible to reduce the number of casualties on the Palestinian side, but this would require a modification of the Israeli army’s rules of engagement, namely the way it operates, particularly when in close proximity to schools, hospitals and other shelters.

    For example, as an artillery officer I know that even now – with advanced technologies – artillery fire is unreliable. As an artillery forward observer, I always looked up to the sky, praying my shells hit the targets and not land on my head. Artillery shells have a strange habit of going astray.

    Read the whole thing on the link.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #5 - August 06, 2014, 11:25 PM

    Came across this on Twitter recently, it seems to me like a fairly balanced article.


    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701?utm_hp_ref=tw
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #6 - August 06, 2014, 11:55 PM

    Thanks for reviving this thread, zeca.

    It is true that the loudest voices on all sides of this are usually the most obnoxious and most nationalistic ones. That's why you don't hear the more balanced views that much. Whenever someone tries to bring a balanced POV (i.e. "Hey there are assholes among Arabs in and out of Palestine and among Jews in and out of Israel, just like there are good people among both groups!") they are usually shouted down by the most brash and polarized people on either side. This leads many of us who want to look at the grievances and perspectives of people on both sides of the issue to want to just leave those who want to fight alone. This is especially horrendous online and in social media, where Arab nationalists (religious or not) - and their regressive leftist lackeys - like to incessantly concern troll anyone who wants to take into account that Israelis may have a point in trying to defend their own citizens, and where Jewish nationalists (religious or not) - and their regressive right-wing lackeys - like to incessantly concern troll anyone who wants to take into account that Palestinians may have a point in trying to live with dignity as human beings who shouldn't be getting bombed just because they happen to be in the way.

    This thread is a space for sharing those balanced POVs. So here's another one:



    By Meredith Tax: Gaza: The Jewish Right and the Muslim Right - 4 August 2014

    "The Jewish Right says that the people of Gaza elected Hamas and are therefore implicated in its missile attacks on Israeli civilians.  The Muslim Right says that the people of Israel elected Netanyahu and are therefore implicated in Israel's assassinations, carpet bombings, deprivation of water, and slow starvation of Gaza.  But collective punishment is a war crime, no matter who does it.  While Israel's ability to kill civilians is greatly superior to that of Hamas, both sides have their war criminals.  The relationship is symbiotic.  Israel's destruction of Gaza helps keep the Muslim Right in power in Gaza; Hamas's rockets strengthen the hold of the Right in Israel."

    source: https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/meredith-tax/gaza-jewish-right-and-muslim-right

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #7 - August 06, 2014, 11:57 PM

    I have seriously considered starting a thread about this: what exactly is it about the Israel/Palestine thing that sends people over the top? It's an interesting question, because those same people often have little or no reaction to other international issues that are just as brutal, or even more so. It seems to be something specific to Israel/Palestine. Although the reasons are obvious in the cases of religious nutters from all three Abrahamic religions, they are not obvious in the case of less religious or non-religious people.


    I would be very interested in a real in-depth analysis of this myself. I have my theories about it (for both sides).

    Of course, such a thread would probably turn into a flame war PDQ. Tongue


    Yeah it would. Cat fight
    It's social media slacktivism to the zillionth degree. Roll Eyes

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #8 - August 07, 2014, 12:09 AM

    We can haz flame worz?!?!?! dance

    Could always try starting the thread, kinda like starting a ceasefire in the middle East, and see how long it lasts and how much carnage it results in. Would probably require heavy moderation, but could be a good one.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #9 - August 07, 2014, 12:11 AM

    (This was also posted on another thread - I thought it'd be good to post here as well).



    Beyond Protest: War and the Israeli Left
    By Dahlia Scheindlin - July 29, 2014

    "For most of its history, the left has argued that peace would bring security. In practice, that didn’t work. Israelis largely believe this conflict is symmetrical, but they reject equal Israeli and Palestinian responsibility for the failures of peace efforts. They instead blamed the aborted peace processes—Oslo and the Camp David negotiations of 2000—for the security they never received. In recent years, they’ve ignored Palestinian Authority security cooperation and nonviolent Palestinian political tactics, and credit only the separation barrier for (relative) calm inside Israel.

    The left needs to update its arguments. “Peace brings security” is inaccurate and unrealistic. Instead, the case needs to be made that a diplomatic solution is the only way to stop inevitable escalation by extremists and full-blown wars every few years. No country has eradicated violence. The question is how to contain it.

    Justifiably losing patience, the left has searched for sticks, toying with boycott and international pressure—but those just reinforce the bitter accusation of betrayal among Israelis. Carrots—incentives—are a necessary alternative, but they are hard to find, since Israel has all the allies, alliances, and trade relations it wants.

    Still, there are tactics that haven’t been tested: pressure from within—for example, in the form of civil disobedience—has not been widespread beyond a handful of draft refusers. Outside pressure from “our own”—imagine liberal American Jews appealing directly to their Israeli kin—is more likely to resonate with most Israelis than UN condemnations that make Israelis dig in and change nothing on the ground.

    Different approaches must be found. Israel needs them—and Palestine, too."

    source: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/israels-left-the-need-for-a-new-approach

    The writer Dahlia Scheindlin is someone I'd highly recommend reading, for the POV of an anti-war progressive Israeli academic.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #10 - August 07, 2014, 12:16 AM

    Came across this on Twitter recently, it seems to me like a fairly balanced article.
    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5602701?utm_hp_ref=tw

    I came upon the same article on Twitter, courtesy of an Irish MUFC fan.

    It's very good.
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #11 - August 07, 2014, 01:11 AM

    "Why launch rockets without causing any real damage to the other side, inviting great damage to your own people, then putting your own civilians in the line of fire when the response comes? Even when the IDF warns civilians to evacuate their homes before a strike, why does Hamas tell them to stay put?

    Because Hamas knows its cause is helped when Gazans die. If there is one thing that helps Hamas most -- one thing that gives it any legitimacy -- it is dead civilians. Rockets in schools. Hamas exploits the deaths of its children to gain the world's sympathy. It uses them as a weapon."

    My favorite quote in this article! Civilians are merely a weapon in Hamas's arsenal. They are quite an effective one gaining the sympathy of many millions of people. The problem is that Israel still attacks densely populated areas with lots of civilians and lots of Israeli people cheer them on. In other words they are both at fault and my sympathies lie with the poor Gazan civilians who had no say in this and are just dying like flies...

    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #12 - August 07, 2014, 01:27 AM

    hello Yuppy.. I haven't read you so welcome to CEMB
    "Why launch rockets without causing any real damage to the other side, inviting great damage to your own people, then putting your own civilians in the line of fire when the response comes?

    Because THEY ARE IDIOTS., they want world pity on Palestinian folks dying and crying..

    Quote
    Because Hamas knows its cause is helped when Gazans die.

     

    What  is their cause? and  Question is do they know what their causes is

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #13 - August 07, 2014, 02:05 AM

    Their cause is to fight the Jewish state and remove it from the middle east. Unfortunately they are stupid for picking fights which they cannot win.

    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #14 - August 07, 2014, 04:21 AM

    Excellent reading that showcases lots of nuanced, balanced articles:
    17 Things To Read If You're Trying To See All Sides Of The Israel-Gaza Conflict

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #15 - August 07, 2014, 04:26 AM

    Well fukkit, I'm not reading that then. nyanya

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #16 - August 07, 2014, 04:33 AM

    Oh by the way, back when the First Intifada was in full swing (when I were a lad Old geezer ) I remember some people loudly asserting that we shouldn't give a crap about the Palestinian perspective, because the Palestinians were using horrible tactics. I thought this was a bit silly at the time. The not giving a crap bit, I mean. Come to think of it, the tactics too.

    Anywayz, when the "Fuck Israel" crowd these days gets going I am reminded of this. I am fairly sure that if they had been around during the First Intifada, they would not have been telling me I shouldn't give a crap about the Palestinian perspective. Just saying.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #17 - August 07, 2014, 04:53 AM

    Haven't got time to read them all in full at the moment, but of the excerpts listed this one really stands out:

    Quote
    8. The extreme polarization of the conflict has made it hard to see what's fundamentally at stake.

    Palestinian journalist Daoud Kuttab writes of both the Israeli and Palestinian desire for freedom and independence, a narrative that is lost amidst expressions of "hatred and dehumanization" and complicated by frequent violence.

    In his piece for Time, "In Ramallah, A Wedding Stands Against The Chaos And Hate," he writes: Neither side, nor their respective supporters and allies, seems aware of the humanity of the other.


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #18 - August 07, 2014, 09:34 AM

    This is probably worth a read:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-sociologist-eva-illouz-about-gaza-and-israeli-society-a-984536.html
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #19 - August 07, 2014, 09:48 AM

    I like the story of "Saudi Journalist Rawan Radwan" amd her Nanny better than any stories of balanced POV on the Israel-Palestine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe0QwXm4Oaw
    i don't understand anything but still language is not a barrier to understand the Love..


    And that picture is some 20 year old

    and that little baby you see in that wonderful person hand is this Saudi Journalist Rawan Radwan


    and that wonderful person you see in that picture is Rawan Radwan's  Filipino nanny  "Marie" ., Now Marie  Ning Bernardo-Bibit

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #20 - August 07, 2014, 05:16 PM

    I would be very interested in a real in-depth analysis of this myself. I have my theories about it (for both sides).


    I'd be pretty interested in this too. Do you mind sharing what you think causes such reactions?

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
     Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
     Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
     Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God." - Epicurus
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #21 - August 07, 2014, 09:56 PM


    It is indeed. Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #22 - August 08, 2014, 11:48 AM

    Statistics to restore some 'balance' to the debate.



    There has been some research suggesting that men in general are more likely to die in conflict than women, although no typical ratio is given.

    Nonetheless, if the Israeli attacks have been "indiscriminate", as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women

    The article cites research conducted by the New York Times and Al-Jazeera. Research and enjoy.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #23 - August 08, 2014, 12:02 PM

    What article?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #24 - August 08, 2014, 12:14 PM

    Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures says BBC

    Quote
    Quote
    In the Gaza conflict, most news organisations have been quoting from the office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), which leads a group of humanitarian organisations known as the Protection Cluster.

    Its recent report said that as of 6 August, 1,843 Palestinians had been killed and 66 Israelis and one Thai national since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge on 8 July.

    Of those Palestinians, the status of 279 could not be identified, at least 1,354 were civilians, including 415 children and 214 women, the UN body reported.

    So there were 216 members of armed groups killed, and another 725 men who were civilians. Among civilians, more than three times as many men were killed as women, while three times as many civilian men were killed as fighters.

    A number of other news organisations have been considering the civilian-to-fighter ratio.

    An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided." "At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties."


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #25 - August 08, 2014, 12:27 PM

    What article?


    Apologies. Here is the link:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28666562

    Yeezy has posted a section of the article but there are five more including one on 'the conflict explained' (as if that's never been done before).

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #26 - August 08, 2014, 12:34 PM

    Hmm. Even if you take the NYT's figures, you'd still have 2/3 of all casualties being non-combatants.

    (my earlier, off the cuff mental calculations were that if roughly a quarter of all deaths were militants, which was being claimed, that'd be roughly 500 out of almost 2,000 total, plus you would have to expect some civilian deaths anyway, especially if some people were trying to play chicken with air strikes as reported, but even so that would only account for another 500 at a rough guess, so it still looked like there were around 1,000 deaths left over - IOW, the IDF effectively killed around twice as many as it "should have")

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #27 - August 08, 2014, 12:43 PM

    "should have" I suppose from a realist perspective I understand what you mean given the propensity for collateral damage in densely populated regions in which the population claims they are unable to leave.

    Why do you think more men are killed then women in the conflict?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #28 - August 08, 2014, 12:52 PM


    Why do you think more men are killed then women in the conflict?

    what conflict is that conflict Jedi?,

    is it a general statement for all conflicts around the globe or specific for this Gaza/Israeli conflict?

    if it is  Gaza/IDF  conflict.,   then ..well they are targeting Palestinian guys between the age groups of  say 20 to 50 or 60..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #29 - August 08, 2014, 01:03 PM

    "should have" I suppose from a realist perspective I understand what you mean given the propensity for collateral damage in densely populated regions in which the population claims they are unable to leave.

    Why do you think more men are killed then women in the conflict?


    Well I'd be assuming all the militants were male, since AFAIK Hamas and the other groups don't have female militants, so straight away that's a reason to expect more male deaths in total even if all civilian deaths were random. The dead men can't all be militants, so the IDF's claim of 900 militants dead has to be bullshit. There still seem to be a hell of a lot of excess male deaths though, if the claims of only 200-500 militants dead are correct. Maybe men are just out and about more, while the women are looking after the kids? Dunno.

    Gaza's population is around 40% children (quite remarkable, but true) and the male/female ratio is near enough  to 50% AFAIK, so by the BBC's figures of 1,663 total (they seem to be missing some) children are 25% and women are only 13%, so children are dying at higher rates than they should be for sure. If it was random the figure for women should be 3/4 of the figure for children, rather than half. Could be that when the shit does hit the fan, kids are just less likely to survive due to being smaller.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »