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Theme Changer

 Topic: Ex Muslim, Shia

 (Read 11232 times)
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  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #30 - December 14, 2012, 06:20 PM

    Pro-Israel the country not necessarily the same as Pro-Israeli government perhaps?

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #31 - December 14, 2012, 07:29 PM

    Pro-Israel =  Recognising that a country whose citizens are all Jewish should exist, in that country all non-Jewish are not considered citizens and have no rights?

    Would you be happy if a Muslim country adopts the same attitude?

    I personally don’t believe a country should be built on religion.
     

    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #32 - December 14, 2012, 07:36 PM

    Israel's citizens aren't all Jewish though, are they? Israel is also home to many Israeli Arabs (not Palestinians), Druze, Eastern Europeans, Armenian and other Christians and African (non-Ethiopian Jewish) immigrants. Pro-Israel could mean supporting the right of a country called Israel to exist. Originally it was set up for persecuted Jews to move to, just as Lebanon was set up for Christians, but both countries have moved on. I don't like the Israeli government and it's policies, but as a people, they have just as much right to call themselves Israeli and exist as most other countries (since most other countries were actually set up around the same time, or after).

    Sure, like many other western/middle eastern countries they are struggling right now with issues of cultural/ethnic/religious bigotry and segregation, but so long as there is some effort within the general populace to move past this and to create more acceptance, how are they different to anyone else?

    I don't agree with their right of return law, but I can understand it, however, their citizenship doesn't exclude non-jews from having citizenship (other than Palestinians marrying Israeli citizens-another thing I don't agree with) it does however prefer Jews over non-Jews with it's right of return-something which should and will eventually be dismantled, but this isn't the same as you saying 'all non jews aren't considered citizens'

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #33 - December 14, 2012, 07:48 PM

    Quote
    Sure, like many other western/middle eastern countries they are struggling right now with issues of cultural/ethnic/religious bigotry and segregation, but so long as there is some effort within the general populace to move past this and to create more acceptance, how are they different to anyone else?


    Oh yeh sure they are just another poor country struggling   Roll Eyes
    and yeh they are working so hard to be accepted, they are like the peace force in the area... how are they different from anyone else  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  listen/watched  to the news lately?

    One thing that makes me sick about this forum is some member's the high and mighty attitude e.g.:  oh yeh am not Muslim now and therefore I support Israel even though they are breaking every human right,  or  I am an ex Muslim now so yeh I support anyone who doesn't support Muslims ...

    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #34 - December 14, 2012, 08:46 PM

    welcome to the forum  parrot parrot

    btw, how's muharram going with you?


    Hi Ifrit, thanks! Muharram was great. I went to all the lectures and watched people cry and smack themselves Afro

    Thanks Shammy, welcome to you too yes

    A Belated welcome to the forum, Jila. Smiley

    I wish i can add more but i see that enough advice has already been given.

     Thanks Cato. I've learned so much through reading on this forum, like hours of reading, and I know a little bit about many of the members. OOooooh creepy right? Cheesy

    Fara7

    It's a political and religious thing. The first thing is that Palestinians hate Shias and tend to be right wing Muslim. But that's the forgivable part. The unforgivable part is that Palestinians (those who lived and didn't live in Iraq) are extremely pro Saddam, and they taunt Iraqis about that. I think that is unacceptable, especially being someone whose parents were jailed by Saddam for refusing to join the army.

    That said, two wrongs don't make a right. If the Palestinians want to taunt Iraqis and support Saddam, sure go ahead, but could you understand that Iraqis (Shias) would think that supporting Israel is retaliation to that? Again, two wrongs don't make a right. Saddam did give the Palestinians homes in Iraq, so I get why they think he's so great. But at least acknowledge he was a criminal and ruined the lives of Iraqis and Kurds? That's idealistic, it just wont happen.

    Quote
    One thing that makes me sick about this forum is some member's the high and mighty attitude e.g.:  oh yeh am not Muslim now and therefore I support Israel even though they are breaking every human right,  or  I am an ex Muslim now so yeh I support anyone who doesn't support Muslims ...

     Agree. It's try-hard to say the least. At least my family has a reason, albeit a shit one.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #35 - December 14, 2012, 08:50 PM

    To be honest, I think that if it weren't for the Saddam-support thing, even with the Shia-Sunni issue, my family would sympathise more with the Palestinians. It's sad, but that's just how it's turned out unfortunately.


    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #36 - December 14, 2012, 08:52 PM

    The first thing is that Palestinians hate Shias and tend to be right wing Muslim. But that's the forgivable part.

    Why is it forgivable? Why is it any better than being pro-Saddam?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #37 - December 14, 2012, 09:18 PM

    osmanthus, it's religious indoctrination, and if it wasn't for parents blindly passing the hate down, it might die. It's like how we undid our own indoctrination and left Islam, because you can only follow the sectarian hate narrative if you believe in Islam that way. (By the way, you made me think about all the ignored Sunni crimes against the Shias, so I'm not even sure about my answer anymore mysmilie_977)

    With the Saddam support though, he is not a divine figure to anyone, so there is no excuse to be blind to his crimes. People should have the same empathy they expect to be given for their situation. If not, it isn't just innocent, unknowing hate, but calculated and hostile and very mean.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #38 - December 14, 2012, 09:39 PM

    I don't see what's so evil or wrong about being pro-Israel. Non-Jews are citizens, in fact 20% of Israelis are Arabs, majority of whom are Muslims, and I happen to recall polls showing that they like it in Israel and enjoy the highest HDI of any Arabs in the region. I doubt that kind of peaceful coexistence/religious pluralism is possible in any country that is very strongly Islamic. That said, I wouldn't say I'm pro-either side but I must admit I can't see Israel as the big bad and I actually think that the country has achieved a fair bit and built a decent society; in comparison to it's neighbours. 
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #39 - December 14, 2012, 09:39 PM

    WTF?? I understand being Jew-neutral and have Jewish friends, but being Pro Israel is just sick  vomit


    Precisely. For some reason a lot of ex muslims decide to jump on the pro-Israel bandwagon once they've dumped their former religion, which is just ridiculous and irrational. Sure there are a lot of Islamic fanatics on the Palestinian side, but it's abundantly clear that Israel holds the most responsibility for prolonging this conflict and refusing to do squat to find a resolution.
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #40 - December 14, 2012, 09:43 PM

    Pro-Israel =  Recognising that a country whose citizens are all Jewish should exist, in that country all non-Jewish are not considered citizens and have no rights?

    Would you be happy if a Muslim country adopts the same attitude?


    Even though it's untrue that non-Jews have no rights in Israel, Saudi Arabia appears to adopt the stance that non-Muslims are barely human, is anyone calling for her dismantling?
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #41 - December 14, 2012, 09:54 PM

    Al-Alethia I don't believe your points are the driving argument for the anti-Israeli group. No one cares who enjoys life where, not according to the Goldstone report, or the Chomsky cultists (human rights activists, etc) anyway. It's about settlements and illegal occupation (not the apologist points, Saudi-Israel comparisons). Try reading either, from a non Muslim perspective.
    Anyway I hope my thread doesn't turn into a Palestine-Israel argument wacko

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #42 - December 14, 2012, 10:05 PM

    I know, but I think a lot of hardcore "the Zionist entity should be dismantled" types don't see that Israel isn't some preternaturally evil monster, and ignore the BS that goes in in the other countries in the region. It's like now with KSA criticizing Syria; it's hypocritical b/c they brutally cracked down on some protesters in their own country and without a doubt would've reacted the same way had the protests become more widespread but yet they criticize others for human rights abuse. I'm not pro-Assad or anything like that btw; I reckon he needs to go but I'm just using that example to make a point of the hypocrisy.

    Like I said, I'm not pro-Israel, I just like to see myself as balanced; I don't like hardcore pro-Israel types who believe it to be the Jewish people's birth right to occupy the entire place either and I completely oppose settlements btw. I just think too many people -- on both sides -- are one-sided. .
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #43 - December 14, 2012, 10:26 PM

    True..Last year I had an indigenous studies unit where we were shown videos of hardcore Aboriginal activists saying we should all leave Australia. It's just not how it works. " from ancient grudge break to new mutiny" as Shakespeare puts it. I just disagree with those people who want to talk about how Israel has gay pride parades (an example, like the Saudi comparison thing) as if it's the most important thing in the world, and totally ignore that tiny little illegal occupation problem.

    Syria.. mysmilie_977 It's funny how that's another issue that has the Sunnis and Shias divided. I think it's funny when I see pro Assad Iraqi Shias who seem to totally forget he's a Baathi (same party as Saddam Hussein) and support him because he's "Allawi". Again, just like the Palestine issue, they ignore that innocents are dying, and turn it into a sectarian allegiance thing. Oh dear wacko

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #44 - December 14, 2012, 10:30 PM

    "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
    --Friedrich Nietzsche


    THIS! Cheesy

    People are overwhelmed by their tribes.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #45 - December 14, 2012, 11:08 PM

    ^That is very true. Blind allegiance to one's tribe/sect often gets in the way of justice and peace.
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #46 - December 15, 2012, 03:38 AM

    That reminds me of some naive Pan Africanists -who are also pro-Gaddafi- criticizing US for intervening in Libya and also responsible for Gaddafi's death while they completely forgot that it was the Libyans that initiated the revolution and wanted Gaddafi out but he transgressed. The biggest joke of all is that some believe it was a conspiracy theory Roll Eyes . Gosh i hate when Pan Africanists rant about imperialism and colonialism because they have no actual knowledge of political history. They are just bunch of blind men following blind ideology that is outdated 50 years ago Roll Eyes

    Sorry Jila, not trying to turn your thread into politics but i know how irritating such things can be.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #47 - December 15, 2012, 03:45 AM

    That reminds me of some naive Pan Africanists -who are also pro-Gaddafi- criticizing US for intervening in Libya and also responsible for Gaddafi's death while they completely forgot that it was the Libyans that initiated the revolution and wanted Gaddafi out but he transgressed. The biggest joke of all is that some believe it was a conspiracy theory Roll Eyes . Gosh i hate when Pan Africanists rant about imperialism and colonialism ..........................

       Who are these  Pan Africanists that are also pro-Gaddafi-?  can you name few Cato.. Are they left wing characters?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #48 - December 15, 2012, 04:00 AM

    WTF?? I understand being Jew-neutral and have Jewish friends, but being Pro Israel is just sick  vomit

    why is that Pro Israel is just sick  Fara7?  

    Pro-Israel =  Recognising that a country whose citizens are all Jewish should exist, in that country all non-Jewish are not considered citizens and have no rights?

    Would you be happy if a Muslim country adopts the same attitude?.

    you mean to say non-Jewish  citizens  have no rights in Israel? what kind of rights are we looking for?  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #49 - December 15, 2012, 04:06 AM

    ............................................

    ............................, I'm not pro-Israel, I just like to see myself as balanced; I don't like hardcore pro-Israel types who believe it to be the Jewish people's birth right to occupy the entire place either and I completely oppose settlements btw. I just think too many people -- on both sides -- are one-sided. .

    I am pro-Israel and i support the settlements of Jewish folks in so-called Palestinian areas and i support settlements of Palestinians in so-called Jewish areas and I want to put a Palestinian as President of Israel  .. How do I get there Al-Alethia ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #50 - December 15, 2012, 04:35 AM

    Oh yeh sure they are just another poor country struggling   Roll Eyes
    and yeh they are working so hard to be accepted, they are like the peace force in the area... how are they different from anyone else  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  listen/watched  to the news lately?

    One thing that makes me sick about this forum is some member's the high and mighty attitude e.g.:  oh yeh am not Muslim now and therefore I support Israel even though they are breaking every human right,  or  I am an ex Muslim now so yeh I support anyone who doesn't support Muslims ...


    You ignored the rest of my comment where I talked about how much I despise the actions of the Israeli government and military etc (which btw are the responsible parties for the deaths etc). My point was, what right does Syria or Lebanon or Egypt have to exist? No one questions whether these countries should exist just because they have bad governments and shitty laws, I've never heard someone say 'Lebanon shouldn't exist because it was established as a Christian nation', so if these countries can exist as a nation, why can't Israel? They were all established at the same time by similar people. My point is though that thinking someone has the right to exist as a country is not the same as supporting the actions of that country, and for the last time, I don't support Israel's actions, but just ignore me saying that as usual.

    Lol, I can't believe someone accused me of being pro-Israel in that way, I was just clarifying that the term could mean many things, and supporting the right of a country to exist isn't the same as supporting it's actions, I for one, am pro-human, and that's all, but the issues are more than black or white. Anyway, I don't think this discussion is right for the thread, sorry for the OT.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #51 - December 15, 2012, 04:50 AM

    ^That is very true. Blind allegiance to one's tribe/sect often gets in the way of justice and peace.

    You have the makings of a good judge ! There are a helluva lot of tribes and sub-tribes out there playing all sorts of  ingenious blame games !

     I for one, am pro-human, and that's all, but the issues are more than black or white.  


     Afro That's great  and very perceptive ! Yes and because there are many shades of grey to this issue, it's prudent to avoid making a definitive judgment on the problem,at least in the case of those whose only source of information is the media.
    ETA : This is not directed to anyone here in particular !



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #52 - December 15, 2012, 04:55 AM

    ........................

    Lol, I can't believe someone accused me of being pro-Israel ...............

    ,,Sprout you are indeed  pro Israel.,  what you may not like is some actions of Israeli government that can be replaced through elections...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #53 - December 15, 2012, 05:07 AM

     Cheesy neither pro nor against is also an option !

    Btw threads are being hijacked!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #54 - December 15, 2012, 05:11 AM

    I am pro-Israel and i support the settlements of Jewish folks in so-called Palestinian areas and i support settlements of Palestinians in so-called Jewish areas and I want to put a Palestinian as President of Israel  .. How do I get there Al-Alethia ??


    Well, you are completely insane  Cheesy
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #55 - December 15, 2012, 05:12 AM

    I'm so sorry Jila, we've completely hijacked your thread.
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #56 - December 15, 2012, 05:14 AM

    I'm sorry too for what it's worth.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #57 - December 15, 2012, 05:35 AM

    Well, you are completely insane  Cheesy


    That's his speciality ! But he means well !



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #58 - December 15, 2012, 05:43 AM

    I am opposed to any country that is built on one major religion where the rest of the people in the country are being treated like second class and being persecuted, this includes Saudi, Pakistan, Afghanistan and most importantly Israel....  each one of these countries are breaking basic human rights

    Sadam and Quadafi  stood up to the US, and many ignorant Muslims supported them purely for standing up to the US, and hated the US for interfering to remove them,  they ignored the criminal acts  those two did  just because they had the guts to stand up to the US... exactly the same scenario some members on this forum are Pro-Israel and ignoring all the criminal acts they are committing against Palestinians and all human rights laws.


    Teach us to care and not to care / Teach us to sit still.
    What do we live for; if it is not to make life less difficult to each other
    You are the music while the music lasts.
    T.S.Eliot
  • Ex Muslim, Shia
     Reply #59 - December 15, 2012, 05:47 AM

    Ok, why "most importantly" Israel?

    Why would human rights abuses by Israel be intrinsically worse than human rights abuses by any other conutry?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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