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 Topic: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?

 (Read 9508 times)
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  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #30 - October 26, 2012, 01:52 PM

    As Americans bought the old London Bridge and re-erected it at Lake Havasu City, so Saudis copying Big Ben is predictable.  The religious police will be dressed up as beefeaters soon, and the saudi taxis will be London black cabs.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #31 - October 26, 2012, 01:53 PM

    Imagine the Macdonalds Golden Arch behind the kaaba!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #32 - October 26, 2012, 01:54 PM

    I think that only really applies to Saudi and oil money countries. In Syria, Iraq, Iran, Caucasus, Turkey and many other Muslim countries religious sites are reverred but are also decaying gradually.


    Yeah maybe. But how many buildings survive intact from the so-called Golden Age of Islam? There is supposedly an "Ummayad" mosque in Damascus and Mosul, but are those buildings really the same as they were in the 8th Century? Then from the Abbasid era there is that funky looking Mosque in Samarra that looks like it is genuinely old.

    What about in Persia? I think most of those beautiful blue mosques in Iran are from the modern era (16th-19th centuries) I am not ware of any buildings that have survived intact from the so-called Classical era. But I am not an expert by any means, if anybody knows of any real old islamic buildings then I would love to see pictures.
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #33 - October 26, 2012, 02:00 PM

    I remember asking the Muslims on the Gewaher.com forum to post pictures of the oldest examples of Islamic architecture that they knew of.

    They were really excited and inundated the thread with tonnes of pictures. But apart from one guy that posted pics of the Dome of the Rock, all of the other pics were of really modern "mega-mosques", mostly in European cities. They totally misunderstood my question and it seemed really clear that noone over there had any interest in architectural history or preserving the past.
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #34 - October 26, 2012, 02:05 PM

    Quote
    The Dome of the Rock (Arabic: مسجد قبة الصخرة‎, translit.: Masjid Qubbat As-Sakhrah, Hebrew: כיפת הסלע‎, translit.: Kipat Hasela) is a shrine located on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. The structure has been refurbished many times since its initial completion in 691 CE at the order of Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik.


    Quote
    A.C. Cresswell in his book Origin of the plan of the Dome of the Rock notes that those who built the shrine used the measurements of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The diameter of the dome of the shrine is 20.20m and its height 20.48m, while the diameter of the dome of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is 20.90m and its height 21.05m.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #35 - October 26, 2012, 02:06 PM

    When was the gold put on the dome of the rock?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #36 - October 26, 2012, 02:25 PM

    I have no idea Moi. I would be interested to know. As far as those beautiful blue panels on the side of the Dome of the Rock go. I would supsect that those were added sometime in the 15th Century or later. The reason I suspect that is because there is a architectural style of blue mosques that seems to have started in the 15th Century and reached it's height in the 16th and 17th centuries.

    Here are some examples:

    Friday Mosque of Herat, completed 1446.


    Shrine of Hazrat Ali, built in the 15th Century, wikipedia says that most of the shrine's decorations, however, are the result of modern restoration work


    Blue mosque of Tabriz, completed 1465.


    Fatima Masumeh Shrine in Qoms, Iran. Wiki says much of the shrine complex was first built by Shah Abbas I in the early 17th century. But it says that the dome was gilded in gold in the 19th century.
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #37 - October 26, 2012, 02:32 PM

    Does anyone else find Islamic decorative art a little garish and tacky?

    Not the architecture. That's usually stunning. But that gaudy knotwork of bright clashing colours.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #38 - October 26, 2012, 02:35 PM


    that link says

    Quote
    "This was the most historic part of the old city," says Irfan al-Alawi, executive director of the UK-based Islamic Heritage Research Foundation, who has worked in vain to raise the profile of his country's historic sites. "It has now all been flattened." Residents were evicted, he says, with one week's notice, and many have still not been compensated – a common story across Mecca's developments. "They are now living in shantytowns on the edge of the city without proper sanitation. Locals, who have lived here for generations, are being forced out to make way for these marble castles in the sky."..................

     
    Great...   send all the poor kids of Arabia to fight Jihad all over the world for the sake of allah  so these Arabian  SODs can live in castles & palaces..  and AMRIKA will give blanket security to SODs as long as  Saudi oil wells pump oil..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #39 - October 26, 2012, 02:36 PM

    Yes, you are right. It is not just Islam. But there is a difference. In the West, religious sites are seen as something connected with the past and therefore massive over-development around them are discouraged. In fact religion itself is connected with the past, there is a seperation between the modern world and the religious world. That is why all of the bling bling you see around the Vatican is from many centuries ago.

    In Islamic societies, religion is not relegated to the past but takes an active role in modernity. Therefore there is no real interest in preserving past religious monuments, especially not if they can afford to make them bigger and better today.

    Sounds like a good thing to me.
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #40 - October 26, 2012, 02:38 PM

    Does anyone else find Islamic decorative art a little garish and tacky?

    Not the architecture. That's usually stunning. But that gaudy knotwork of bright clashing colours.


    Actually I like the blue tiles. The golden domes are clearly a hude waste of money though.

    The wiki article on the Dome of the Rock says that the blue "Iznik" tiles were added to the exterior during the reign of the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent. Which would make that a 16th Century addition.

    It also says this about the golden dome:

    Quote
    In 1993, the golden dome covering was refurbished following a donation of $8.2 million by King Hussein of Jordan who sold one of his houses in London to fund the 80 kilograms of gold required.


    But that was refurbishing, it does not say when it was originally added.
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #41 - October 26, 2012, 03:59 PM

    I'm slightly annoyed because now no one can ever really dig up the archaeological sites and figure exactly what really went on in pre-Islamic Arabia. It's seen as a "miracle" that Muhammad came to the area of jahil, but the only proof now is seen as the Quran. No wonder the wahhabis wanted it destroyed.

    How can you reason with someone who hasn't used reason to get there in the first place?

    -Jonathan Swift.

    OH GURL
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #42 - October 26, 2012, 05:09 PM

    Very like Las Vegas.  As it is already called Mecca, when will they open the halal casinos?


    Clever joke Cheesy

    But the funniest thing about all of this is, what if Tom Holland's hunch about Mecca is right? What if there was really nothing there during the time of Muhammad, and Muhammad really lived up in Jordan. All of this development around this sacred site would thus mean nothing because the site was never the home of Muhammad in the first place.


    Very interesting proposition you got there.i have had those thoughts too before and even had that thought that what if Mo was mythical considering how they dont allow people into his tomb but remain at the doorstep. Such things have raises more questions than answers.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #43 - October 26, 2012, 05:13 PM

    I'm slightly annoyed because now no one can ever really dig up the archaeological sites and figure exactly what really went on in pre-Islamic Arabia. It's seen as a "miracle" that Muhammad came to the area of jahil, but the only proof now is seen as the Quran. No wonder the wahhabis wanted it destroyed.


    Good point, I'm more interested in Pre-Islamic Arabia than the lifetime of Mo just to find out if the Arab pagans were really living in ignorance and female infanticide had occured as it was stated in Islamic sources.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #44 - October 26, 2012, 07:47 PM

    Does anyone else find Islamic decorative art a little garish and tacky?

    Not the architecture. That's usually stunning. But that gaudy knotwork of bright clashing colours.

    The good examples can be great. Some is a bit OTT though.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #45 - October 26, 2012, 07:59 PM

    1930's by Hitler's mate!

    http://www.bibleplaces.com/guide.pdf

    1925 Guide published in Jerusalem by the Mosque authorities.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #46 - November 04, 2012, 07:04 PM

    I would love to travel to Mecca and see this stuff before they level it all. Though it would be difficult considering the rate they are knocking stuff down. 
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #47 - November 04, 2012, 07:05 PM

    Does anyone else find Islamic decorative art a little garish and tacky?

    Not the architecture. That's usually stunning. But that gaudy knotwork of bright clashing colours.


    The bright colours are central to the arabesque style really. I've not seen a particular example I hate. Even ones with turquoise in them. 
  • Re: Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #48 - November 04, 2012, 11:52 PM

    Does anyone else find Islamic decorative art a little garish and tacky?

    Not the architecture. That's usually stunning. But that gaudy knotwork of bright clashing colours.


    YUP  Smiley

     I agree with you. Even when I was a muslim guy with absolutely no fashion sense I kinda felt that the colour scheme of those mosques was a bit weird.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #49 - October 01, 2014, 12:41 PM

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/3126195a16a3470da23198048f392b2b/saudi-overhaul-reshapes-islams-holiest-city-mecca
    Quote
    MECCA, Saudi Arabia (AP) — As a child, Osama al-Bar would walk from his home past Islam's holiest site, the Kaaba, to the market of spice and fabric merchants where his father owned a store. At that time, Mecca was so small, pilgrims could sit at the cube-shaped Kaaba and look out at the serene desert mountains where the Prophet Muhammad once walked.

    Now the market and the homes are gone. Monumental luxury hotel towers crowd around the Grand Mosque where the Kaaba is located, dwarfing it. Steep rocky hills overlooking the mosque have been leveled and are now covered with cranes building more towers in row after row.

    "My father and all the people who lived in Mecca wouldn't recognize it," said al-Bar, who is now Mecca's mayor.

    As Muslims from around the world stream into Mecca for the annual hajj pilgrimage this week, they come to a city undergoing the biggest transformation in its history.

    Decades ago, this was a low-built city of centuries-old neighborhoods Over the years, it saw piecemeal renewal projects. But in the mid-2000s, the kingdom launched its most ambitious overhaul ever with a series of mega-projects that, though incomplete, have already reshaped Mecca.

    Old neighborhoods have been erased for hotel towers and malls built right up to the edge of the Grand Mosque. Historic sites significant for Islam have been demolished. Next to the Kaaba soars the world's third tallest skyscraper, topped by a gigantic clock, which is splashed with colored lights at night.

    "It's not Mecca. It's Mecca-hattan. This tower and the lights in it are like Vegas," said Sami Angawi, an architect who spent his life studying hajj and is one of the most outspoken critics of the changes. "The truth of the history of Mecca is wiped out ... with bulldozers and dynamite. Is this development?"

    Critics complain the result is stripping the holy city of its spirituality. They also say it is robbing the hajj of its more than 1,400-year-old message that all Muslims, rich or poor, are equal before God as they perform the rites meant to cleanse them of sin, starting and ending by circling the Kaaba seven times.

    Mecca is revered by hundreds of millions of Muslims worldwide. They face the Kaaba every day in their prayers. The Grand Mosque is one of the few places in the world where Muslims of all stripes gather — Sunnis and Shiites, secular Muslims, mystics and hard-liners.

    Overseeing Mecca is also a key source of prestige for Saudi Arabia's monarchy. The past two kings — the current one, Abdullah, and his predecessor, Fahd — have adopted the further title of "custodian of the two holy mosques" to boost their status, referring to Mecca's Grand Mosque and Muhammad's mosque in nearby Medina.

    Now the city is being molded to a particularly Saudi vision that bolsters the rule of the Al Saud royal family.

    Two forces shape that vision. One is raw, petrodollar-fueled capitalism. Mecca's planners are largely catering to wealthier pilgrims by focusing on construction of five-star hotels, surrounding the Kaaba in marble-sheathed luxury. Nearby pilgrims can shop at international chains, including a Paris Hilton store and a gender-segregated Starbucks.

    The other force is Wahhabism, the strict, puritanical interpretation of Islam that the Al Saud rulers elevated to the country's official doctrine. In return, Wahhabi clerics staunchly back the monarchy. The monarchy has long given Wahhabi clerics a monopoly of preaching at the Kaaba.

    One tenet of Wahhabism is that Muslim tombs or sites connected to revered figures — even the Prophet Muhammad, his family and companions — should be destroyed to avoid veneration of anything other than God. It's the same iconoclastic zeal that has prompted militants from the Islamic State group to blow up Muslim shrines in Iraq and Syria.

    In Mecca, hardly any site associated with Muhammad remains. Many were destroyed in previous expansions of the Grand Mosque in the 1980s and 1990s, and the new development is finishing off much of what remains. In 2008, for example, the house of Abu Bakr, Muhammad's successor as leader of the Muslim community, was razed to make way for a Hilton.

    The country's top religious official, Grand Mufti Abdul-Aziz Al-Sheik, backed such demolitions last year, saying "the removal of such things within the expansion is necessary."

    The urban renewal is necessary, Saudi officials say, to accommodate hajj pilgrims whose numbers are expected to swell from around 3 million currently to nearly 7 million by 2040.

    The $60-billion Grand Mosque expansion will almost double the area for pilgrims to pray at the Kaaba. Around half the cost went to buying about 5,800 homes that had to be razed for the expansion, said al-Bar, the Mecca mayor. Domes and pillars dating back to rule by the Ottoman Empire are being pulled down to put up modern facilities.

    Another mega-project is Jabal Omar, a hill on the mosque's west side. The hill — a landmark in the city — was levelled and in its place, construction of around 40 towers is underway, mostly for luxury hotels providing some 11,000 rooms. The first of the Jabal Omar hotels, a Hilton Suites and the Anjum Hotel, just opened in the past few months.

    On the mosque's south side stands the 1,972-foot (600-meter) clock-tower skyscraper, part of a completed seven-tower complex that was built after tearing down an Ottoman fort on the site.

    Also underway is the Jabal Sharashif project, in which a slum that largely houses Burmese and African migrants is to be torn down to build a new neighborhood for Saudis, along with hotels. A four-line metro system is planned for the city along with a high-speed rail line to the port city of Jiddah, where the area's airport is located, and to Medina.

    The Grand Mosque's expansion is being headed by the Saudi Binladin Group, which also built the clock tower. The Binladin family has been close to Al Sauds for decades and runs major building projects around the country. Al-Qaida's late leader Osama bin Laden was a renegade son disowned by the family in the 1990s.

    Speaking at a public forum in Jiddah in May, Nawaf Binladin, whose father is chairman of the conglomerate, said people are constantly asking if all this construction is needed.

    "This can be answered in one moment in this image," he said, flashing a picture of tens of thousands of worshippers praying in the street because there was not enough room inside the Grand Mosque.

    But many in the audience were not convinced. Saeed al-Ghamdi, a former Saudi diplomat, said he thinks greed is the main motivator.

    Muslims around the world have an "intimate bond" with Mecca, he said. "It is not a place for one businessman or one company."

    Mecca's planners didn't have to build so close to the Kaaba, overwhelming the simple cube-shaped structure, said Irfan al-Alawi, a Saudi who heads the London-based Islamic Heritage Research Foundation. The hotels could have been built miles away and transportation improved.

    "Already we are losing the spirituality," he said. Pilgrims admire the clock tower instead of "looking at the Kaaba and admiring the house of God."

    Essam Kalthoum, managing director of the government-owned Bawabat Makkah Company, which is involved in a number of projects around the city, acknowledged that "it would be a farce" to say financial motivations are not coming into play.

    But he said the main goal is to increase space for pilgrims.

    Kalthoum showed a gift from a Turkish foundation he had just received: a photo of Mecca from the late 1800s.

    "This is painful," he said. "For those of us who witnessed some of this (past), it brings back memories."

    But he pointed to the Kaaba in the photograph. "Because of this place," he said, the old markets and buildings had to go.

  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #50 - October 01, 2014, 01:38 PM


    Yap.....yes..yes..   Sand land SODOM kings love to erase history and origins of Islam completely  so they can use that  figure head name  "Muhammad" and do all sorts of criminal activities  with alalahhhhooo akbaaaaaaaaaaar  chants

    Off course  2-3 million innocent muslim folks and CRIMINAL MUSLIMS  ROGUES that are in politics could visit that Mecca and Madina, so fucking kings can make more money   billions dollars every year  and spread their shit and their  fucking strain of Islam.,   THE SADISTIC SAUDISM  to behead people or to lash and  put folks like Raif Badawi in jails..

    And ..and the GREAT DEMO CRACK  AMRIKA will give full support to kings of Saudism or Sadism or sodomism .. whatever fuck it may be..

    Oops Sorry I meant Great democracy..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #51 - October 01, 2014, 02:19 PM

    There is a Coursera course on designing cities and it looks like Mecca is really a village that has met classic Corbusier type Modernism, but without the green spaces!

    Does Mecca have a CBD, shopping malls,factories, warehouses, red light area, cinemas, theatres, railways, subways?

    What is the population that lives there or is it really a huge Disneyland?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #52 - October 01, 2014, 02:24 PM

    How could a sharia country be Disneyland? Huh?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #53 - October 01, 2014, 02:41 PM



  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #54 - October 01, 2014, 02:42 PM

    I am talking about Mecca and i think quite easily!  Think about it!  Disneyland has one main purpose and a secondary one - entertainment and money.

    Mecca's entertainment is religiously based "zones" like chucking stones at satan, visiting the stone.  It also has hotels etc.  Sorry, it is a form of Disneyland!

    I bet they use Disney crowd control techniques!  

    And this explains why they can chuck out old stuff, they are only revamping stuff, just as Disneyland does!

    OK they have weird rules, like needing to stay in role in the rest of the country and wear the equivalent of mickey mouse masks when outside!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #55 - October 01, 2014, 02:45 PM


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #56 - October 01, 2014, 05:13 PM

    I bet they use Disney crowd control techniques!  

    I bet they don't. Wink

    I hear the rains, I see the fire, I feel the flame. It doesn't change the faces I want to blame for the shame I'm feeling.
    But the winds of change will blow again. And we're the lucky ones who travel on towards the sun.

    Can you hear it calling you?
  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #57 - October 06, 2014, 04:27 AM

    Fucking obscene, is all I can say. Religions end up perverting the good into the ridiculous. I'm reading Johann Ludwig Burckhardt's Travels Through Arabia - he was a Swiss guy who masqueraded as a Syrian pilgrim to travel to Makkah in the early 1800's. The hypocrisy and bullshit he saw in Islam and the holy land then is still there, only now it's fuelled by unending petrodollars.

    The Saudis and people of Makkah think they've been favoured by God so they can do whatever the hell they want with pilgrims. After all, most people come once for the Hajj, so it's a tremendous cash cow. As guardians of the holy (in their minds, not mine) sites the Saudi aristocracy seem more interested in handing out massive construction contracts than actually preserving the place for the future.
  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #58 - October 06, 2014, 07:29 AM

    Calling Zaotar and other wise ones...

    Are the Saudis perhaps redeveloping Mecca so brutally not because they have no respect for the traces of history but to hide the fact that there is nothing much there?
  • Mecca 'development' - how does this make you feel?
     Reply #59 - October 06, 2014, 07:57 AM

    Well beside Islam Mecca has nothing much going for it. KSA works hard to keep the placebo effect strong and visible.
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