Refuted: Islamic “Embryology” & Hamza Tzortzis

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- nj7
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Refuted: Islamic “Embryology” & Hamza Tzortzis
OP - September 23, 2012, 10:24 AM

Hey guys, CaptainDisguise and I have put together a detailed paper refuting the latest version of Hamza "nutfah" Tzortzis’ linguistic-artistic analysis of embryology in the Qur’an. We think this takes the debunking of the apologetic claims about embryology to a new level, wrecking their claims about certain Arabic words and even of what they claim science tells us.

Yeah, this is overkill if it’s just about (re)debunking Hamza, but most of it is applicable to claims commonly made by Islamic apologists and websites in general, with loads of new arguments and evidence.

It has been a long time coming (CD has been really busy so has only been able to work on it in the past few months, now and then), but Hamza continues to deliver lectures and webinars spreading this BS, and I often see Muslims quote his claims, including ones from earlier versions of his paper that he has already retracted due to us exposing them ages ago.

Here is a short video giving a taster of the paper, how we destroy apologist claims (and Hamza’s credibility) concerning the word nutfah. There’s plenty more on nutfah in the paper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPgT_gV97tw&feature=g-all-u

The paper can be read and commented on at this website created by CaptainDisguise:

http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.co.uk/

Or directly download the paper refuting Hamza Tzortzis on embryology

CaptainDisguise deserves the vast bulk of the credit. He wrote the paper and I contributed lots of the arguments, evidence and research, gave critical feedback and improved the wording. Saudi Arabian youtubers / bloggers AtheistGhost, GodlessSaudi, and AntiGoebbels also contributed.

Probably the sections with the best new research are the ones on nutfah, ‘alaqah and mudghah. The theme running throughout is how Hamza has badly misrepresented his sources.

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- nj7
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Re: Refuted: Islamic ?Embryology? & Hamza Tzortzis
Reply #1 - September 23, 2012, 10:28 AM

A few examples off the top of my head of original things we discovered, which you can see in the paper:

See how anterior implantation wrecks the claims about ‘alaqah in the sense of “a hanging thing” being a good word for the embryo

How apologists make use of a heavily manipulated image of an embryo to back up their feeble claims about the embryo looking like a blood clot

Hamza’s invented claim that an Arabic dictionary defines tara’ib (from the backbone & ribs verse) as the pelvic arch

How Hamza (and apologists in general) badly misrepresents the dictionary definition of mudghah

How Hamza erroneously thinks he’s been vindicated in his dispute with PZ Myers (which triggered the whole thing) about bones forming and then being clothed with flesh because of his misunderstanding of a few ambiguous textbook quotes about the migration of muscle cells into the limbs. Unfortunately I’ve seen Muslims repeat Hamza’s deeply flawed claims on this.

An appendix on how Tzortzis used a heavily quotemined hadith on nutfah and was forced to retract

Here’s an earlier discussion about Hamza’s paper.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=18767.0

CaptainDisguise was on TheJinnAndTonicShow last night talking about the paper. I only saw the end of the show but will watch when it’s uploaded to youtube.

When any of you encounter Muslims boasting about Islamic embryology or debating on forums, it would be great if you would link to the site created by CaptainDisguise to spread the word and improve its position for relevant web searches.

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- sturmgewehr
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Re: Refuted: Islamic “Embryology” & Hamza Tzortzis
Reply #2 - September 23, 2012, 10:28 AM

Yup I saw this one, that is actually a great work, I also downloaded the paper from Captaindisguise's blog.

Let's see what will Hamza have to say about this.

Also, I watched the whole J&T Show last night.
- yeezevee
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Re: Refuted: Islamic ?Embryology? & Hamza Tzortzis
Reply #3 - September 23, 2012, 10:31 AM

Quote from: nj7 on September 23, 2012, 10:24 AM
Hey guys,............

Here is a short video giving a taster of the paper, how we destroy apologist claims (and Hamza’s credibility) concerning the word nutfah. There’s plenty more on nutfah in the paper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPgT_gV97tw&feature=g-all-u

The paper can be read and commented on at this website created by CaptainDisguise:

http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.co.uk/

Or directly download the paper refuting Hamza Tzortzis on embryology

..............

Thank you for that link and work nj7., it is very useful and handy to have that on hard disk

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- nj7
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Re: Refuted: Islamic “Embryology” & Hamza Tzortzis
Reply #4 - September 23, 2012, 10:32 AM

Thanks To be honest I'm pretty much beyond caring what Hamza will say. I have forced several retractions from him in the past, but it's always a tiresome process. The trouble is, though they won't admit it, he knows that the faith of his followers in Islam is heavily dependant on Hamza being seen to defeat his opponents. He is like a crutch for their faith. So he has to use every dubious tactic of straw-mans, quotemines, misrepresented sources, rhetoric etc.

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- JackV
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Re: Refuted: Islamic ?Embryology? & Hamza Tzortzis
Reply #5 - September 23, 2012, 10:39 AM

Thank you for this good work.
Muslim's believe that the miracles in the Quran is unrefutable. To them the Quran is divine like 1+1=2
Proving them wrong against it is mind fucking lol

The embryology miracle is one of the strongest claims Muslim's have too
- yeezevee
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Re: Refuted: Islamic “Embryology” & Hamza Tzortzis
Reply #6 - September 23, 2012, 12:21 PM

Quote from: nj7 on September 23, 2012, 10:32 AM
...To be honest I'm pretty much beyond caring what Hamza will say.

Off course we should not care about the noises these tortoises, fools , baboons make on Modern science and Quran. For that matter, we should not care about any religious bum speaking their respective scriptures and relating those babbling words with modern science. These faith heads that talks about science in their religious books must be trashed where ever we find them. Don't leave them even if they hide behind Mosques and behind trees. And that is not for insulting them but educating million of kids that are born in Muslim families and have access to web.

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I have forced several retractions from him in the past, but it's always a tiresome process.

That is true, it is indeed a tiresome unpaid job often spending sleepless nights. But on the other hand opening the minds of high school going internet saucy kids is the reward and satisfaction you get. I think that is as important as anything that any one contributes to the betterment of present and future humanity.

Quote
The trouble is, though they won't admit it,

who cares? why even bother whether baboons agree on with what we say. Again what you are writing is not for them and those who follow him foolishly., There are millions of unsuspected kids out there. It is for them.

Quote
he knows that the faith of his followers in Islam is heavily dependant on Hamza being seen to defeat his opponents. He is like a crutch for their faith. So he has to use every dubious tactic of straw-mans, quotemines, misrepresented sources, rhetoric etc.

That works only in public debates where monkeys make more noise in baboon babbling . It doesn't work with written arguments on web.

So whenever we find some time we must cut these guys to their size and argue with them to go to high school ..

with best regards
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- nj7
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Re: Refuted: Islamic ?Embryology? & Hamza Tzortzis
Reply #7 - September 23, 2012, 06:27 PM

Yeah it's true this is really for the people you mention. I've no idea how widely known these arguments will become (there are lots of very good ones in the paper), if it'll make any difference or how many of them will read it or be exposed to the arguments via other people.

For me personally, I explained to CaptainDisguise ages ago that I'd help with his paper but once that's finished I need to draw a line under my interest in Islam. I should have done so some time ago as I need to focus 100% on some vital stuff I need to do and this kind of thing is very distracting, but I wanted to help see it reach this point. So this has been my final Islam-related project for the foreseeable future anyway and I won't be partaking in disputing the contents with Muslims. CaptainDisguise understands and is fine with that.

Any help anyone can give him to help realise the most benefit from this paper (posting links on forums, blogs, using the arguments etc.) would be most welcome by him!

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
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