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Theme Changer

 Topic: origin of Mecca / History of the Kaaba.

 (Read 17785 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • origin of Mecca / History of the Kaaba.
     OP - August 28, 2012, 12:27 PM

    1. Who really built the Kaaba?
    2. Is it significant to pointing towards if Islam is true or not?
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #1 - August 28, 2012, 12:37 PM

    1. I did. Fun things to do with a time machine when pissed that didn't require the logistics trail of killing Hitler and all that.

    2. Not really. I was pissed.
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #2 - August 28, 2012, 12:39 PM

    1. Aliens

    2. Not really, fact is so much of it is buried in the past that it titillates too much.  Could Adam have built it?  It was sooooo long ago that Adam was supposed to have done this thing, that it just might be true, so I can believe in this if I want to, since it took them ages to understand dinosaurs, it's just science and fact hasn't caught up with this amazing ACTUAL factual history allah has given us.  But eventually these kaffir will discover that adam did in fact build the kaaba. (I don't believe this of course, but I once believed this, that science just hadn't caught up with the truth)

    If a person still believes in the myth, it's the myth you need to break first.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #3 - August 28, 2012, 12:46 PM

    ^
    ^

    LOOOL,  dance

    I concur

  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #4 - August 28, 2012, 12:48 PM

    1. Who really built the Kaaba?
    2. Is it significant to pointing towards if Islam is true or not?

    Is it significant to pointing towards ..... toward what?/  IAmTheMoonGod

    as far as 1st question is concerned let me add some resources from Islamic side..


    Ka'bah As A Place Of Worship In The History

    Kaaba: Brief History

    History of Kaaba(Qeebla),Reality of Mukam-e-Ibrahim,Hazrat Ibrahim & Ismail's Dua


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #5 - August 28, 2012, 01:28 PM

    To me the most fascinating thing about Islam is the fact that the supposedly glorious Pre-Islamic city of Mecca, the place where all the Pagan Arabs would come to make pilgrimage to, is never mentioned by any ancient sources.

    Mecca is located just across the Red Sea from Ancient Egypt, so if it was so significant we would expect the Egyptians to have mentioned it at some point, especially when Egypt came under Greek and Roman rule as there were many geographers located in Egypt at that time that were notorious for detailed accounts of places and towns.

    There were in fact a number of ancient geographers such as Strabo, Pliny, and the anonymous author of 'Periplus of the Erythraean Sea', that described the Hejaz region of Arabia in detail but never mentioned Mecca.

    There are also accounts of the Roman expedition through the Hejaz region, led by Aelius Gallus around 30 BC, that is very detailed and mentions many towns, but never mentions Mecca.

    To me this is the most miraculous thing about Islam, that this city: Mecca, seems to have sprang up out of nowhere.

    It seems that either:

    a) Allah was purposefully keeping it hidden from outsiders on purpose, or

    b) the Islamic historians have exaggerated it's importance and it was really a very small town that had only been settled 2 or 3 centuries prior to Muhammad, or

    c) perhaps it went by a totally different name in antiquity, and only became known as "Mecca" 2-3 centuries before Muhammad.
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #6 - August 28, 2012, 01:34 PM

    Quote
    ........................

    There were in fact a number of ancient geographers such as Strabo, Pliny, and the anonymous author of 'Periplus of the Erythraean Sea', that described the Hejaz region of Arabia in detail but never mentioned Mecca.



    There are also accounts of the Roman expedition through the Hejaz region, led by Aelius Gallus around 30 BC, that is very detailed and mentions many towns, but never mentions Mecca.  

     Tonyt could you please put some links on that...
     
    Quote
    To me this is the most miraculous thing about Islam, that this city: Mecca,

     
    Nah.. that is NOT the most miraculous  thing about Islam., it is  the most ridiculous   thing   in Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #7 - August 28, 2012, 02:10 PM

    Tonyt could you please put some links on that...


    General Descriptions of Arabia:

    The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea:
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.asp

    The account of Strabo (Book 16, Chapter 4):
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/16D*.html

    The account of Diodurus Siculus:
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/2B*.html
    (This chapter includes descriptions of India and Arabia. To get to the part about Arabia, use CTRL-F and search "Arabia".

    And also Diodurus Siculus account of the coasts of the Arabian Gulf:
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3B*.html

    and:

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3C*.html

    The account of Pliny:
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D32

    and:

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D33

    Specifically on the expedition of Aelius Gallus into Arabia:

    I have bolded all names of places in Arabia.

    The account by Dio Cassius:

    Quote
    3 While this was going on, another and a new campaign had at once its beginning and its end. It was conducted by Aelius Gallus, the governor of Egypt, against the country called Arabia Felix, of which Sabos was king. 4 At first Aelius encountered no one, yet he did not proceed without difficulty; for the desert, the sun, and the water (which had some peculiar nature) all caused his men great distress, so that the larger part of the army perished. 5 The malady proved to be unlike any of the common complaints, but attacked the head and caused it to become parched, killing forthwith most of those who were attacked, but in the case of those who survived this stage it descended to the legs, skipping all the intervening parts of the body, and caused dire injury to them. There was no remedy for it except a mixture of olive-oil and wine, both taken as a drink and used as an ointment; 6 and this remedy naturally lay within reach of only a few of them, since the country produces neither of these articles and the men had not prepared an abundant supply of them beforehand. In the midst of this trouble the barbarians also fell p271upon them. 7 For hitherto they had been defeated whenever they joined battle, and had even been losing some places; but now, with the disease as their ally, they not only won back their own possessions, but also drove the survivors of the expedition out of the country. 8 These were the first of the Romans, and, I believe, the only ones, to traverse so much of this part of Arabia for the purpose of making war; for they advanced as far as the place called Athlula, a famous locality.

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/53*.html

    The account of Strabo:

    Quote
    22 Many of the special characteristics of Arabia have been disclosed by the recent expedition of the Romans against the Arabians, which was made in my own time under Aelius Gallus as commander. He was sent by Augustus Caesar to explore the tribes and the places, not only in Arabia, but also in Aethiopia, since Caesar saw that the Troglodyte country which adjoins Aegypt neighbours upon Arabia, and also that the Arabian Gulf, which p355separates the Arabians from the Troglodytes, is extremely narrow. Accordingly he conceived the purpose of winning the Arabians over to himself or of subjugating them. Another consideration was the report, which had prevailed from all time, that they were very wealthy, and that they sold aromatics and the most valuable stones for gold and silver, but never expended with outsiders any part of what they received in exchange; for he expected either to deal with wealthy friends or to master wealthy enemies. He was encouraged also by the expectation of assistance from the Nabataeans, since they were friendly and promised to co-operate with him in every way.

    23 Upon these considerations, therefore, Gallus set out on the expedition; but he was deceived by the Nabataean Administrator, Syllaeus, who, although he had promised to be guide on the march and to supply all needs and to co-operate with him, acted treacherously in all things, and pointed out neither a safe voyage along the coast nor a safe journey by land, misguiding him through places that had no roads and by circuitous routes and through regions destitute of everything, or along rocky shores that had no harbours or through waters that were shallow or full of submarine rocks; and particularly in places of that kind the flood-tides, as also the ebb-tides, caused very great distress. Now this was the first mistake of Gallus, to build long boats, since there was no naval war at hand, or even to be expected; for the Arabians are not very good warriors even on land, rather being hucksters and merchants, to say nothing of fighting at sea. But Gallus built not less than eighty boats, biremes and p357triremes and light boats, at Cleopatris,208 which is near the old canal which extends209 from the Nile. But when he realised that he had been thoroughly deceived, he built one hundred and thirty vessels of burden, on which he set sail with about ten thousand infantry, consisting of Romans in Aegypt, as also of Roman allies, among whom were five hundred Jews and one thousand Nabataeans under Syllaeus. After many experiences and hardships he arrived in fourteen days at Leucê Comê 210 in the land of the Nabataeans, a large emporium, although he had lost many of his boats, some of these being lost, crews and all, on account of difficult sailing, but not on account of any enemy. This was caused by the treachery of Syllaeus, who said that there was no way for an army to go to Leucê Comê by land; be yet camel-traders travel back and forth from Petra to this place in safety and ease, and in such numbers of men and camels that they differ in no respect from an army.

    24 This came to pass because Obodas, the king, did not care much about public affairs, and particularly military affairs (this is a trait common to all the Arabian kings), and because he put everything in the power of Syllaeus; and because Syllaeus treacherously out-generalled Gallus in every way, and sought, as I think, to spy out the country and, along with the Romans, to destroy some of its cities and tribes, and then to establish himself lord of all, after the Romans were wiped out by hunger and fatigue and diseases and any other evils which he had treacherously contrived for them. However, Gallus put in at Leucê Comê, his army now being p359sorely tried both with scurvy and with lameness in the leg, which are native ailments, the former disclosing a kind of paralysis round the mouth and the latter around the legs, both being the result of the native water and herbs. At all events, he was forced to spend both the summer and the winter there, waiting for the sick to recover. Now the loads of aromatics are conveyed from Leucê Comê to Petra, and thence to Rhinocolura, which is in Phoenicia near Aegypt, and thence to the other peoples; but at the present time they are for the most part transported by the Nile to Alexandria; and they are landed from Arabia and India at Myus Harbour; and then they are conveyed by camels over to Coptus in Thebaïs, which is situated on a canal of the Nile, and then to Alexandria. Again Gallus moved his army from Leucê Comê and marched through regions of such a kind that water had to be carried by camels, because of the baseness of the guides; and therefore it took many days to arrive at the land of Aretas, a kinsman of Obodas. Now Aretas received him in a friendly way and offered him gifts, but the treason of Syllaeus made difficult the journey through that country too; at any rate, it took thirty days to traverse the country, which afforded only zeia,211 a few palm trees, and butter instead of oil, because they passed through parts that had no roads. The next country which he traversed belonged to nomads and most of it was p361 truly desert; and it was called Ararenê; and its king was Sabos; and in passing through this country, through parts that had no roads, he spent fifty days, arriving at the city of the Negrani (believed to be Najran) 212 and at a country which was both peaceable and fertile. Now the king had fled and the city was seized at the first onset; and from there he arrived at the river in six days. Here the barbarians joined battle with the Romans, and about ten thousand of them fell, but only two Romans; for they used their weapons in an inexperienced manner, being utterly unfit for war, using bows and spears and swords and slings, though most of them used a double-edged axe; and immediately afterwards he took the city called Asca, which had been forsaken by its king; and thence he went to a city called Athrula; and, having mastered it without a struggle, he placed a garrison in it, arranged for supplies of grain and dates for his march, advanced to a city called Marsiaba, which belonged to the tribe of the Rhammanitae, who were subject to Ilasarus. Now he assaulted and besieged this city for six days, but for want of water desisted. He was indeed only a two days' journey from the country that produced aromatics, as informed by his captives, but he had used up six months' time on his marches because of bad guidance, and he realised the fact when he turned back, when at last he had learned the plot against him and had gone back by other roads; p363for on the ninth day he arrived at Negrana, where the battle had taken place, and thence on the eleventh day at Hepta Phreata, as the place is called, from the fact that it has seven wells; and thence, at last, marching through a peaceable country, he arrived at a village called Chaalla, and again at another village called Malotha, which is situated near a river; and then through a desert country, which had only a few watering-places, as far as a village called Egra. The village is in the territory of Obodas; and it is situated on the sea. On his return he accomplished the whole journey within sixty days, although he had used up six months in his first journey. Thence he carried his army across the Myus Harbour within eleven days, and marched by land over to Coptus, and, with all who had been fortunate enough to survive, landed at Alexandria. The rest he had lost, not in wars, but from sickness and fatigue and hunger and bad roads; for only seven men perished in war. For these reasons, also this expedition did not profit us to a great extent in our knowledge of those regions, but still it made a slight contribution. But the man who was responsible for this failure, I mean Syllaeus, paid the penalty at Rome, since, although he pretend friendship, he was convicted, in addition to his rascality in this matter, of other offences too, and was beheaded.

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/16D*.html

    The account of Pliny:

    Quote
    Ælius Gallus,60 a member of the Equestrian order, is the sole person who has hitherto carried the Roman arms into these lands, for Caius Cæsar, the son 61 of Augustus, only had a distant view of Arabia. In his expedition, Gallus destroyed the following towns, the names of which are not given by the authors who had written before his time, Negrana, Nestum, Nesca, Masugum, Caminacum, Labecia, and Mariva 62 above- mentioned, six miles in circumference, as also Caripeta, the furthest point of his expedition. He brought back with him the following discoveries—that the Nomades 63 live upon milk and the flesh of wild beasts, and that the other nations, like the Indians, extract a sort of wine from the palm-tree, and oil from sesame.64 He says that the most numerous of these tribes are the Homeritæ and the Minæi, that their lands are fruitful in palms and shrubs, and that their chief wealth is centred in their flocks. We also learn from the same source that the Cerbani and the Agræi excel in arms, but more particularly the Chatramotitæ;65 that the territories of the Carrei are the most extensive and most fertile; but that the Sabæi are the richest of all in the great abundance of their spice-bearing groves, their mines of gold,66 their streams for irrigation, and their ample produce of honey and wax. Of their perfumes we shall have to treat more at large in the Book devoted to that subject.67 The Arabs either wear the mitra,68 or else go with their hair unshorn, while the beard is shaved, except upon the upper lip: some tribes, however, leave even the beard unshaved. A singular thing too, one half of these almost innumerable tribes live by the pursuits of commerce, the other half by rapine: take them all in all, they are the richest nations in the world, seeing that such vast wealth flows in upon them from both the Roman and the Parthian Empires; for they sell the produce of the sea or of their forests, while they purchase nothing whatever in return.


    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D32
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #8 - August 28, 2012, 02:42 PM

    1. elves, doll factory really
    2. nope, b'cause of global warming, santa relocate himself to northpole, we need some serious archeological research, maybe there are some doll left undisturbed by mo layin around.
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #9 - August 28, 2012, 03:20 PM

    General Descriptions of Arabia:

    The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea:
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.asp

    The account of Strabo (Book 16, Chapter 4):
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/16D*.html

    The account of Diodurus Siculus:
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/2B*.html
    (This chapter includes descriptions of India and Arabia. To get to the part about Arabia, use CTRL-F and search "Arabia".

    And also Diodurus Siculus account of the coasts of the Arabian Gulf:
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3B*.html

    and:

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3C*.html

    The account of Pliny:
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D32

    and:

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D33

    Specifically on the expedition of Aelius Gallus into Arabia:

    I have bolded all names of places in Arabia.

    The account by Dio Cassius:
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/53*.html

    The account of Strabo:
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/16D*.html

    The account of Pliny:

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D32

    Thank you TonyT ..

    4 years ago., I had hot discussion with some guys in FFI., I am still with the assumption that there was no Town Called Mecca in 4th century  .. may be there was some Arab pagan settlement in desert but not the one the way Islamic sources describe..

    Quote
    The volume of commerce between Rome and India was huge since the conquest of Egypt by the Romans, according to the historian Strabo: 120 roman vessels sailed every year from Berenice Troglodytica and many times touched Aden in southern Arabia Felix on their travel to India, while doing the Spice Route[1]. Mostly in order to secure the maritime route from piracy, the Romans organized an expedition under Aelius Gallus in which the port of Aden (then called Eudaemon) in southern Arabia was occupied temporarily.

    Romans furthermore maintained a little legionary garrison in the nabataean port of Leuce Kome (just north of the Arabian port of Jeddah) in the 1st century in order to control the commerce of spices, according to the academic Mommsen [2]. Indeed frankincense and myrrh, two spices highly prized in antiquity as fragrances, could only be obtained from trees growing in southern Arabia, Ethiopia, and Somalia. Arab merchants brought these goods to Roman markets by means of camel caravans along the Incense Route. This Incense Route originally commenced at Shabwah in Hadhramaut, the easternmost kingdom of South Arabia, and ended at Petra. Strabo compared the immense traffic along the desert routes to that of an army. The Incense Route ran along the western edge of Arabia’s central desert about 100 miles inland from the Red Sea coast. The Roman Pliny the Elder stated that the journey consisted of sixty-five stages divided by halts for the camels. Both the Nabataeans and the South Arabians grew tremendously wealthy through the transport of these goods destined for the Roman Empire



    The ruins of Old Marib, in actual Yemen, sieged by the Romans in 25 B.C.

    that is from wiki



    Trade roots of Romans..  Ha ! funny town names there

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #10 - August 28, 2012, 03:52 PM

    that is from wiki


    Hmmm, it says there that Aelius Gallus conquered a village called "Mekke". I don't know what the source of that information is so I have just added "Citation needed" to the wikipedia article.
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #11 - August 29, 2012, 10:38 AM

    So before Muhhamad came, Kaabah was a place of worship of pagan gods?
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #12 - August 29, 2012, 12:23 PM

    Yes, there were hundreds of stone idols placed around the Kaaba, each one supposedly represented a different pagan diety. When Muhammad conquered the city, he demolished them all with a stick whilst proclaiming "Truth has come, falsehood has vanished" (Sahih-Bukhari, Book 43, #658)
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #13 - August 29, 2012, 12:23 PM

    Isn't it a meteorite that has been moved from somewhere else?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #14 - August 29, 2012, 12:29 PM

    Quote
    It is said to have been struck and smashed to pieces by a stone fired from a catapult during the Umayyad siege of Mecca in 756. The fragments were rejoined by 'Abd Allah ibn Zubayr using a silver ligament.[12] In January 930 it was stolen by the Qarmatians, who carried the Black Stone away to their base in Hajar (modern Bahrain). According to Ottoman historian Qutb al-Din, writing in 1857, Qarmatian leader Abu Tahir al-Qarmati set the Black Stone up in his own mosque, the Masjid al-Dirar, with the intention of redirecting the Hajj away from Mecca.


    From wiki black stone.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #15 - August 29, 2012, 12:31 PM

    I recommend it is moved to Jerusalem and placed in a rebuilt Jewish temple.....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #16 - September 01, 2012, 07:46 AM

    These might be relevant.
    watch?v=HWQqj7GTDrc

  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #17 - September 01, 2012, 11:15 AM


    I think Tom Holland mentions in his book that there might have been kaaba-like, cubed places of worship elsewhere in the region before Islam came along

    I wonder if the cube design had any meaning or significance in being a site of worship itself


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #18 - September 01, 2012, 04:48 PM


    http://www.livius.org/ei-er/elagabal/elagabal.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus_%28deity%29
    All gods of the pantheon of the Arabian city Emesa, in Syria, had Semitic names, with one exception: the supreme god Elagabal. He was a Sun god, which suggests an earlier origin and makes this god a local deity, probably related to similar gods from Canaan. The Aramaic name of Elagabal is Ilaha Gabal, meaning "God of the mountain".

    Elagabal has also been compared to the Chaldaean god Gibil, which can be translated as "god of the black stone".
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #19 - September 01, 2012, 08:48 PM


    From that wiki ^^^

    A temple called the Elagabalium was built on the east face of the Palatine Hill, to house the holy stone of the Emesa temple, a black conical meteorite.[5] Herodian writes of that stone:

    This stone is worshipped as though it were sent from heaven; on it there are some small projecting pieces and markings that are pointed out, which the people would like to believe are a rough picture of the sun, because this is how they see them

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #20 - September 01, 2012, 09:26 PM

    This might be a daft question, but what precisely does worshipping a piece of rock have to do with Islam?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #21 - September 05, 2012, 06:32 PM

    I was told today it came from paradise and scientists have said it is of unknown composition.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #22 - September 06, 2012, 01:18 AM

    ^ yes yes innit creeptoonite?
    I have one too

  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #23 - September 06, 2012, 10:51 AM

    Hmm, what if it were a lump of uranium....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: History of the Kaaba. Built by Adam? Abraham? What?
     Reply #24 - September 06, 2012, 12:36 PM

     Cheesy this one ...

  • the origins of Mecca
     Reply #25 - May 20, 2013, 04:50 PM

    Great review Tony, thanks for posting  Afro

    This subject is endlessly fascinating.

    I wonder if Happy Murtad has read this book? Any thoughts on the ideas it explores HM?





    I certainly agree that the importance of Mecca as an international trading center must have been greatly exaggerated. The location of the city, as well as the geographical obstacles presented by the HIjaz Mountains, make it a highly unlikely place for a caravan route.

    There must have been some sort of settlement there, however, and it is not unlikely that local tribes themselves may have engaged in their own trade to the north and to the south. This is, in my opinion, much more plausible.


    I think that locally, among the tribes of the hijaz, Mecca may have been a familiar and important outpost. The establishment of the “haram” area in which fighting was accepted as taboo may have contributed to a relatively calm environment. This would have allowed the local desert tribes to interact and trade with each other on a smaller, more believable scale.

    Also, as many of the pilgrimage rites revolved around blessing  herds of animals and offering sacrifices to local deities, I would not find it strange that the Kaa’ba would have been simply a pagan shrine and altar. If that was the case, the location of the shrine wouldn’t much matter.

    I think it is also worth noting just how primitive 7th century Arabia must have been. This is something that I thought a lot about while I was there. I think that we have a tendency to think of these places as actual cities in a modern sense, where as in reality, they must have been simple outposts of low, mud brick huts and Bedouin tents. Even today, there are places that are primitive beyond our modern comprehension.

    I recommend looking over the photos of Wilfred Thesiger’s journeys through Arabia in the mid 20th century to gain an appreciation of just how different the place and the people must have been then.
  • What book are you reading?
     Reply #26 - May 20, 2013, 05:03 PM

    Take a look at these photos. This is the place that we are talking about. These are the people. If this was in the 40s and 50s, I don’t think we can imagine what the place was like in the year 600.

    http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/thesiger/index.php/thesigers-albums.html

    These were your Muhammads and Abu Bakrs and Umars. This was your Makkah and Madinah.
  • What book are you reading?
     Reply #27 - May 20, 2013, 06:05 PM

    HM, as always, thanks for your insightful posts  Afro

    It is so fascinating.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • What book are you reading?
     Reply #28 - May 20, 2013, 06:20 PM

    It really is the most feeble critical review I have ever read, it was so bad that when I got to the last page I could not believe that that was the end, he never addresses any of the major points that Crone makes in the book, I figured, "Hold on, this must be just the intro, surely he will get to the meat of his argument" But that was all there is.


    I remember reading that review and thinking to myself that it really didn't accomplish much. You might be interested in Heck's article Arabia Without Spices: An Alternate Hypothesis: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3217750

    There's also a lengthy rebuttal allegedly written by a Saudi professor. It's much more satisfying than Serjeant's review and actually addresses specific claims in the book: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?fpd8n2wczbzddho

    My one qualm with it is I couldn't find a lot of the references that al-Roubi lists, but I might have simply not put enough effort into it.


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  • What book are you reading?
     Reply #29 - May 20, 2013, 06:23 PM

    Hey billy, Can you split this off into a new thread? I can see myself responding a lot to this lol.
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