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Theme Changer

 Topic: Muhammad's letters

 (Read 5190 times)
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  • Muhammad's letters
     OP - June 19, 2012, 10:34 PM

    Somebody just posted this pdf of Muhammad's letters on a history forum I visit.

    The pictures of these letters look very suspicious to me. They look like they are in extremly good condition but have been made to look old. One of them has holes in it and the Arabic letters appear to move around the holes.  Roll Eyes

    Anyway i was wondering if anybody has come across this stuff before and if they know if anybody has ever verified the authenticity of these letters, I mean actual crabon dating / lingustic analysis...
  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #1 - June 20, 2012, 01:24 AM

    Dunno I'm sceptical, something doesn't sit right with it. It does look in very good condition and the writing doesn't look quite right in terms of the script form used at the time. Why wouldn't it be more well known if it is indeed Mo's letters? Doesn't make sense, I've certainly never heard of them being still in existence.

    I spent a year studing the process of transference of Islamic texts (Qu'ran, hadith etc...) from the time of Mo 'till now. I've forgotten alot of it, and wish I had my old text-books to be able to give references/info etc...

    To me it seems just by looking at the different letters presented, that the type of scripts used look to be from later periods than at the time of Mo, and different periods of time to each other. Some have older script form, and some have later script form.

    Just from squizzing through wiki, there's this:

    Quote

    PERF 558 is the oldest surviving Arabic papyrus, and the oldest dated Arabic text from the Islamic era, dating from 22 AH (AD 642) and found in Heracleopolis in Egypt. It is a bilingual Arabic-Greek fragment, consisting of a tax receipt, or as it puts it "Document concerning the delivery of sheep to the Magarites and other people who arrived, as a down-payment of the taxes of the first indiction." Features of interest include:

        The first well-attested use of the disambiguating dots that would become an essential feature of the Arabic alphabet;
        It begins with the Islamic formula "Bismillah ir-rahman ir-rahim" (In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate)
        It records the date both in the Islamic calendar (Jumada I, year 22) and in the Coptic calendar (30 Pharmouthi, 1st indiction), allowing confirmation of the traditional date of the Hijra.
        In Greek, it calls the Arabs "Magaritae", a term, believed to be related to the Arabic "muhajir", emigrant, often used in the earliest non-Islamic sources. It also calls them "Saracens".

    After excavation, the papyrus was put in the Erzherzog Rainer Papyrus Collection in Vienna.
    Arabic text

    Dots and hamzas added; otherwise, spelling uncorrected.

        بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم هذا ما اخذ عبد اله
        ابن جبر واصحبه من الجزر من اهنس
        من خليفة تدراق ابن ابو قير الاصغر ومن خليفة اصطفر ابن ابو قير الاكبر خمسين شاة
        من الجزر وخمس عشرة شاة اخرى اجزرها اصحاب سفنه وكتئبه وثقلاءه في
        شهر جمدى الاولى من سنة اثنين وعشرين وكتبه ابن حديدو

        In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. This is what `Abdallah,
        Son of Jabir, and his companions-in-arms, have taken as of slaughter sheep at Heracleopolis (Ihnas)
        from a representative of Theodorakios (Tidraq), second son of Apa Kyros (Abu Qir), and from a substitute of Christophoros (Istufur), eldest son of Apa Kyros (Abu Qir), fifty sheep
        as of slaughter and fifteen other sheep. He gave them for slaughter for the crew of his vessels, as well as his cavalry and his breastplated infantry in
        the month of Jumada I in the year twenty-two. Written by Ibn Hadidu.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PERF_558

    Quote

    P. Berol. 15002 - One Of The Earliest Arabic Parchments From 22 AH / 643 CE

    Date

        22 AH / 643 CE.

    Accession No.

        P. Berol. 15002.

    Contents

        The translation of the document is given below.

            .. and half ... in ...

            [... in the] year twenty-two.

    Comments

        It is a parchment fragment of a receipt for the settlement of accounts. This is one of two earliest Arabic papyri; the other one being the celebrated PERF No. 558. Not much attention had been paid to this parchment because of its fragmentary nature.

        Very much like PERF No. 558, P. Berol. 15002 also shows dotting. Dots can be seen on the letter ن.


    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PBerol.html

    Quote
    The year 22 is the first Islamic year for which any dated documents written in Arabic survive, and there are only two of those: P Berol 15002,[11] which is unfortunately fragmentary, and PERF 558, the first complete Arabic document of the Muslim era.


    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jones.html

    Here is a list of links to some of the earliest Islamic period arabic papyri:

    645-650 CE

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/perinv94.html

    663 CE

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/coptic.html

    674 CE

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jerus.html

    643-674 CE

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PMich.html

    684 - 685 CE

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/aprl1.html


    This page has a list of dated muslim writings papyri/graffiti/coins etc... from 622 CE:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlyislam.html


    Here is a page with a list of early Qu'ranic inscriptions/writings from the year 650 CE:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlyquran.html


    Here is a page detailing in list form the various writings from 637 mentioning Mo:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html

  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #2 - June 20, 2012, 12:55 PM

    Wow! Awesome Dude! That is a great response! Thanks for the links.

    The first one from "year 22" I had seen before because there is a picture of it in Tom Holland's book, but I had not seen the others.

    I would suspect that those "letters" attributed to Mo are not even very old forgeries, probably twentieth century.
  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #3 - June 20, 2012, 12:57 PM


    I have some old e-mails of his that were forwarded to me.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #4 - June 20, 2012, 01:02 PM

    You have some old emails from Muhammad?
  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #5 - June 20, 2012, 01:04 PM

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #6 - June 20, 2012, 01:16 PM

    No worries Tonyt, just wish I had all my old text-books, some of them were written by highly respected Islamic scholars in this field, and although they were biased, most of them were pretty honest considering. Remember one book in which the guy literally debunked a heap of myths held in the Islamic community regarding the Qu'ran and it's apparent "infallibility" and "perfection" (he pointed out numerous times in his book that the Qu'ran isn't a perfect word for word copy of that which Mo gave, in fact he even talked in his book about the various Qu'ranic versions that can be found today and dealt with ayat that had been removed from the Qu'ran), and he was from Saudi, very respected in his field, and his book was fascinating.  finmad One of my regrets is leaving that book and other books behind, but had no choice at the time.

    I'd have to say that the study of how the Qu'ran and hadith came to us today was one of the only parts of my long and generally awful experience in shariah and Islamic classes that was enjoyable. I was fascinated by it, and it really opened up my eyes and mind and gave me many more doubts to wrangle with that's for sure. I wanted to know more, more, more, and the more I learned the more my eyes were opened.

    It was alot more fun then listening to the many points on zakat, how you calculate your zakat if you have so many sheep blah blah blah, or whether FGM was fard, mustahab, makrooh, a part of the fitrah and so on and so forth. Hated most of my shariah classes lol, fell asleep in a few of them too.  Cheesy

    But studying how various Islamic texts got from then to now was fascinating and intriguing.
  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #7 - June 20, 2012, 01:22 PM

    You have some old emails from Muhammad?


    Yeah. He uses 'LoLz' after he asks some tribe to convert or else.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #8 - June 20, 2012, 01:27 PM

    Cheesy

  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #9 - June 20, 2012, 01:29 PM

    Wouldn't it be hilarious to write up a parody set of Mo's letters...

    My brain is so fucking evil.  Cheesy
  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #10 - June 21, 2012, 12:07 AM

    The whole LOLZ style txt speak would explain how he came to call Yeshua‘ (Jesus) by the ridiculously incorrect name of ‘Isa!
  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #11 - June 21, 2012, 12:16 AM


    Don't forward this e-mail address to anyone don't want him to get spam:

     muhammad_ghetto_arab@yahooakbar.com




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #12 - June 21, 2012, 12:19 AM

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #13 - June 21, 2012, 12:36 AM

    Don't forward this e-mail address to anyone don't want him to get spam:

     muhammad_ghetto_arab@yahooakbar.com


    There’s a variant tradition that he had the email address big_daddy_mo@gabrieltoldmetokillthejews.com
  • Re: Muhammad's letters
     Reply #14 - June 21, 2012, 01:32 PM

    There’s a variant tradition that he had the email address big_daddy_mo@gabrieltoldmetokillthejews.com


     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    Someone should join Gawaher with the username big_daddy_mo.

    And as for GabrielToldMetoKilltheJews.com, that is a great URL and it's available for $12.99.
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