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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hi..what's your problem?

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  • Hi..what's your problem?
     OP - June 27, 2012, 08:21 PM
    Hi..i don't know how i stumbled upon this site..but i did. I'm a muslim, and i'm bemused as to why you are all so anti-muslim.

    If you don't want to be muslim, fine, but you still should be respectful/ tolerant/ civilised and polite to people who do want to be muslim, like me. Isn't it all about free will, democracy etc?

    Unfortunately, some muslims are extremists but thankfully this is the minority. They do moderate muslims like myself an injustice.

    I would be interested in stories of 'ex-muslims' who returned to Islam.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #1 - June 27, 2012, 08:29 PM
    Welcome to the forum Superstrike.  Smiley

    Maybe you can bring some ex-Muslims back to the light of Islam with your moderate, and I hope rational, interpretations of it.

    I look forward to chatting with you.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #2 - June 27, 2012, 08:30 PM
     parrot

    Welcome.

    Just like to check how moderate you are!  Are men and women equal?  What are your views on homosexuality?  What are your views about evolution?

    Do jinn exist?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #3 - June 27, 2012, 08:33 PM
    WOW! this is something new ! Cheesy

    signwelcome
     popcorn


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #4 - June 27, 2012, 08:38 PM
    Thanks...

    I didn't really come here to bring people back to Islam. Like I said, I found this site by accident and I was interested. I promise you I am an open minded practising muslim. My views are:

    If you want to be muslim..great.
    If you don't want to be muslim - fine, it's your choice. It's not my call, it's God's call. I actually encourage my Christian friends to go to church and pray for me e.g. before exams/ family illness etc.

    I disagree with homosexuality (as do most people, even non-muslims). Jinn DO exist, as does Shaitan. Yes men and women are certainly equal, but each possess their own unique roles in society.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #5 - June 27, 2012, 08:52 PM
    .
    You need to read this book.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #6 - June 27, 2012, 09:06 PM
    To the OP, a question.

    Do you believe that any idea may ever be beyond question? Many of your brothers and sisters seem to, and would appear to be violently allergic to the notion that certain ideas may be ridiculed.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #7 - June 27, 2012, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: toor on June 27, 2012, 09:06 PM
    To the OP, a question.

    Do you believe that any idea may ever be beyond question? Many of your brothers and sisters seem to, and would appear to be violently allergic to the notion that certain ideas may be ridiculed.


    No it is not beyond question. It is healthy to ask questions. Even Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) had questions. However, I am against the mocking of any religion. We must be respectfully critical of each other's beliefs.

    I don't understand why ex-muslims feel that it is their duty to attack/ ridicule islam and muslims. If you don't want to be a muslim, fine, it's your loss (in my opinion), but just quietly move on.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #8 - June 27, 2012, 09:17 PM
    "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."

    Who said that?

    Why do some Muslims feel it their duty to ridicule all things non-Muslim, or to lie about aspects of modern science, or to impose meanings upon the Qur'an that would be - to put it most charitably - philologically suspect? Why should these people not deserve ridicule in their turn? Or is it only for ex-Muslims to shut up?
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #9 - June 27, 2012, 09:20 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 08:21 PM
    Hi..i don't know how i stumbled upon this site..but i did. I'm a muslim, and i'm bemused as to why you are all so anti-muslim.

    If you don't want to be muslim, fine, but you still should be respectful/ tolerant/ civilised and polite to people who do want to be muslim, like me. Isn't it all about free will, democracy etc?

    Unfortunately, some muslims are extremists but thankfully this is the minority. They do moderate muslims like myself an injustice.

    I would be interested in stories of 'ex-muslims' who returned to Islam.


    Hi, and welcome to the forum  Smiley

    With regards to the emboldened sentence I have no doubt that many of us are respectful/tolerant/civilised and polite towards Muslims. Unless they are not behaving this way to us of course.
    However, this does not mean anyone has to be like that towards Islam. Whilst it may offend people, it's not above criticism.

    People who are particularly hateful towards Islam usually have some background of it heavily impacting on our lives, causing detrimental effects. Well, this is the case with myself, and numerous other ex- Muslims that I've spoken to anyways.

    Anywho, if you are so worried about people being intolerant and disrespectful of other religions/cultures, you only need to look to members of your own religion to see this happening on a daily basis, all over the place.
    In other words; people in glass houses can't throw stones! No disrespect intended    Wink
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #10 - June 27, 2012, 09:26 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 09:13 PM
    No it is not beyond question. It is healthy to ask questions. Even Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) had questions. However, I am against the mocking of any religion. We must be respectfully critical of each other's beliefs.

    I don't understand why ex-muslims feel that it is their duty to attack/ ridicule islam and muslims. If you don't want to be a muslim, fine, it's your loss (in my opinion), but just quietly move on.


    Well if some muslims are ridiculing other people's beliefs, they are wrong too. Like I said in an earlier post, some muslims are unfortunately extremists. For example, I do not like it when some muslims accuse others of being kaffir if they have slightly different views.

    2 wrong's don't make a right, and attacking Islam is not right, whether you are non-muslim or ex-muslim.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #11 - June 27, 2012, 09:31 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 08:38 PM
    Yes men and women are certainly equal, but each possess their own unique roles in society.


    What do you mean by men and women?

    And what exactly are these 'unique roles in society'?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter's_syndrome
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism

    And where do people with the above conditions fit in?
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #12 - June 27, 2012, 09:34 PM
    Attacking Islam is not right?!

    Sure it is.  If you possess beliefs and would impose them on others, you invite scrutiny. If something does not conform with your beliefs, then you are presumably entitled to criticise them to the extent that you dislike them. To the extent that this criticism doesn't prevent any Muslim from pursuing their faith - or anyone else from living their lives - it's perfectly fine. Anyone who would censor the expression of such opinions fails this test of non-interference and is seeking an advantage that they are not entitled to.

    Islam isn't special, and people who cloak themselves in any of the pieties aren't special. Again, nothing new there.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #13 - June 27, 2012, 09:37 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 08:38 PM
    Jinn DO exist


    Do you believe fairies, unicorns and dragons exist?
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #14 - June 27, 2012, 09:46 PM
    Quote from: cognisance on June 27, 2012, 09:31 PM
    What do you mean by men and women?

    And what exactly are these 'unique roles in society'?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter's_syndrome
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism

    And where do people with the above conditions fit in?



    Well, these people are treated equally, whatever sex they are/ conform to.

    Quote from: toor on June 27, 2012, 09:34 PM
    Attacking Islam is not right?!

    Sure it is.  If you possess beliefs and would impose them on others, you invite scrutiny. If something does not conform with your beliefs, then you are presumably entitled to criticise them to the extent that you dislike them. To the extent that this criticism doesn't prevent any Muslim from pursuing their faith - or anyone else from living their lives - it's perfectly fine. Anyone who would censor the expression of such opinions fails this test of non-interference and is seeking an advantage that they are not entitled to.

    Islam isn't special, and people who cloak themselves in any of the pieties aren't special. Again, nothing new there.


    There is nothing wrong with constructive, respectful criticism/ debate. What i think is wrong is people attacking other people's beliefs maliciously.

    Quote from: billy on June 27, 2012, 09:37 PM
    Do you believe fairies, unicorns and dragons exist?



    No
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #15 - June 27, 2012, 09:50 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 09:13 PM
    No it is not beyond question. It is healthy to ask questions. Even Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) had questions. However, I am against the mocking of any religion. We must be respectfully critical of each other's beliefs.

    Ridiculous beliefs are prone to ridicule, I'm afraid.  Ridicule, however, is nothing compared to the rational-, ethical- and scientific-based criticism which decimates such religions to their core. One would think that you should be more afraid of the criticism than the ridicule, and many do indeed take great "offense" and are "insulted" by mere criticism and questioning.

    As for this prissy rant over the lack of 'politeness', I can only offer you the great wisdom of British nursery rhymes:

    Sticks and stones
    May break my bones
    But words will never hurt me.
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #16 - June 27, 2012, 09:51 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 09:13 PM
    If you don't want to be a muslim, fine, it's your loss (in my opinion), but just quietly move on.


    Too bad for you, that isn't ever going to happen now - especially in secular liberal societies where the blasphemy taboos cannot be enforced  Smiley

    As long as Islam seeks to prosletyse itself, convert people by telling lies and a perverse moral orientation, and influence individuals and society, it will be scrutinised, confronted and criticised accordingly.

    Of course you want people to just quietly move on, because ex Muslims tell the truth, and inform others about the truth of Islam, and that is the most terrifying thing for Muslims - they can't carry out dawah lies unchallenged, and this causes an immense amount of horror and stress in believers. Too bad. Get used to it. The game is up. Your goose is cooked. We've got your number. And so on and so on.

    Lastly, as long as Islam considers that those who leave Islam deserve to be murdered, and Muslims themselves consider apostates worthy of persecution, slander, ostracism and threat, you will not find peace from the sounds of truth being spoken about Islam by ex Muslims.

    That is pretty much the way it works from now on. My suggestion is you listen to the criticisms, introspect honestly, and if you can't handle it, simply withdraw from the debate, carry on your practise peacefully, and don't participate in the discussion any more - certainly not in a softly-softly, 'please move on quietly and don't tell the truth about Islam to anyone' creepy form of an attempt to stifle the criticism that is centuries overdue to Islam.

    Oh, and by the way, welcome to the forum  Smiley



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #17 - June 27, 2012, 09:53 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 09:46 PM
    No


    Why not? They are as 'real' as Jinns.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #18 - June 27, 2012, 09:53 PM
    Why should one be respectful of attitudes that one cannot respect?

    As a Muslim, you're obliged not to be respectful of lots of groups of people. This does not inspire reciprocity.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #19 - June 27, 2012, 09:54 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 09:26 PM


    2 wrong's don't make a right, and attacking Islam is not right, whether you are non-muslim or ex-muslim.


    No they don't, but like I said, why not sort out problems with people of your own religion doing this first?

    And Islam is not immune from criticism. If we have a problem with it, we'll question it.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #20 - June 27, 2012, 10:03 PM
    Quote from: billy on June 27, 2012, 09:51 PM
    Too bad for you, that isn't ever going to happen now - especially in secular liberal societies where the blasphemy taboos cannot be enforced  Smiley

    As long as Islam seeks to prosletyse itself, convert people by telling lies and a perverse moral orientation, and influence individuals and society, it will be scrutinised, confronted and criticised accordingly.

    Of course you want people to just quietly move on, because ex Muslims tell the truth, and inform others about the truth of Islam, and that is the most terrifying thing for Muslims - they can't carry out dawah lies unchallenged, and this causes an immense amount of horror and stress in believers. Too bad. Get used to it. The game is up. Your goose is cooked. We've got your number. And so on and so on.

    Lastly, as long as Islam considers that those who leave Islam deserve to be murdered, and Muslims themselves consider apostates worthy of persecution, slander, ostracism and threat, you will not find peace from the sounds of truth being spoken about Islam by ex Muslims.

    That is pretty much the way it works from now on. My suggestion is you listen to the criticisms, introspect honestly, and if you can't handle it, simply withdraw from the debate, carry on your practise peacefully, and don't participate in the discussion any more - certainly not in a softly-softly, 'please move on quietly and don't tell the truth about Islam to anyone' creepy form of an attempt to stifle the criticism that is centuries overdue to Islam.

    Oh, and by the way, welcome to the forum  Smiley






    Thanks for the welcome. Yes, some muslims have extreme views, I addressed that earlier. We believe that only in certain circumstances, is the death penalty warranted after a fair trial for apostates (I will not go into detail, it's a long topic).

    I don't understand what you mean by this 'truth about Islam' you keep talking about? What are these 'lies' that muslims tell people to convert them?

    As an ex muslim you should know that it is haram to lie, so most practicising muslims try their best not to lie.

    I agree, Islam (or any set of beliefs) is not immune to criticism. It is ridicule/ attacks that I have a problem with. I don't just mean attacks on islam, I mean attacks on christianity, Judaism etc etc are equally wrong.

    The only time where attacks/ ridicule maybe warranted is when it is aimed at a group that is hurting people/ animals.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #21 - June 27, 2012, 10:07 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 08:38 PM

    I disagree with homosexuality (as do most people, even non-muslims).


    Homosexuality is a natural variant in human sexuality. To be 'against' it is to be against a natural aspect of human experience and human life.

    Thankfully in Britain and other liberal democracies (and many other places around the world too) we are moving beyond this backwards prejudice. And thankfully too, we acknowledge that just because others may share our prejudice, doesn't make it right.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #22 - June 27, 2012, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 10:03 PM
    I don't just mean attacks on islam, I mean attacks on christianity, Judaism etc etc are equally wrong.


    You do realise that in Britain and Europe, the freedom to attack religion is central to how our society has developed, and the rights that the individual has in the face of clericalism and institutional religions and through history, eventually against the state too?

    You do realise that all of the battles for women's equality, gay rights, the rights of minorities, stem from the freedom from clerical authority that has been struggled with for centuries?

    Why do you demand that we regress in order to prevent you from having your feelings hurt by some criticism or even ridicule of aspects of Islam?

    Do you realise how outrageous and futile that is?
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #23 - June 27, 2012, 10:17 PM
    Quote from: billy on June 27, 2012, 10:11 PM
    You do realise that in Britain and Europe, the freedom to attack religion is central to how our society has developed, and the rights that the individual has in the face of clericalism and institutional religions and through history, eventually against the state too?

    You do realise that all of the battles for women's equality, gay rights, the rights of minorities, stem from the freedom from clerical authority that has been struggled with for centuries?

    Why do you demand that we regress in order to prevent you from having your feelings hurt by some criticism or even ridicule of aspects of Islam?

    Do you realise how outrageous and futile that is?



    I'll say it again: there is nothing wrong with criticism and debate. What's wrong is attempting to vilify an entire faith/ belief system. An analogy would be school yard bullying. It is wrong that one child bullies another (verbally) because he doesn't like his victim's clothes or taste in music. If the bully constructively criticises his victim's clothes/ music, then that is acceptable.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #24 - June 27, 2012, 10:18 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 09:26 PM
    Well if some muslims are ridiculing other people's beliefs, they are wrong too. Like I said in an earlier post, some muslims are unfortunately extremists.


    Indeed, what about Muhammad himself? Is he wrong for ridiculing other's beliefs?

    Quote
    And the Jews say, `Ezra is the son of ALLAH,' and the Christians say, `the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;' that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. ALLAH's curse be on them!
    Koran 9:30


    Quote
    Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
    Koran 98:6


    Quote
    Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve.
    Koran 8:55


    Quote
    And if We had pleased, We would certainly have exalted him thereby; but he clung to the earth and followed his low desire, so his parable is as the parable of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue; this is the parable of the people who reject Our communications; therefore relate the narrative that they may reflect.
    Koran 7.176

     
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #25 - June 27, 2012, 10:20 PM
    The focus should be on how to deal with the attacks and ridicule rather than trying to stop it. Someone somewhere will always offend you or hurt your feelings, you should learn how to cope with that rather than tell people to be nice or to 'respect' your beliefs.

    You shouldn't stop someone from saying what they want, how they want, just because you don't agree with it or like it.
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #26 - June 27, 2012, 10:23 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 10:17 PM
    I'll say it again: there is nothing wrong with criticism and debate. What's wrong is attempting to vilify an entire faith/ belief system. An analogy would be school yard bullying. It is wrong that one child bullies another (verbally) because he doesn't like his victim's clothes or taste in music. If the bully constructively criticises his victim's clothes/ music, then that is acceptable.


    The analogy of the bully lies entirely with Islam in this example. Islam bullies those within it who dissent, it bullies non Muslims. It bullies those who try to reform it, it bullies and even seeks to snuff out through censorship and violence those who apostasize from it.

    And finally, as if that were not enough, it tries to play the passive-aggressive bullying game, in which it cries like a baby at the merest criticism, and claims generalised vilification, just as you have done.

    Finally, Islam reserves for itself the right to demonise and essentialise at will non Muslims, non Islamic belief systems, whilst demanding insulation from criticism itself.

    Sorry mate, that just isn't going to fly anymore.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #27 - June 27, 2012, 10:24 PM
    Quote from: superstrike on June 27, 2012, 09:13 PM
    No it is not beyond question. It is healthy to ask questions. Even Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) had questions. However, I am against the mocking of any religion. We must be respectfully critical of each other's beliefs.

    I don't understand why ex-muslims feel that it is their duty to attack/ ridicule islam and muslims. If you don't want to be a muslim, fine, it's your loss (in my opinion), but just quietly move on.


    So one should quietly move on when one has lost one's entire family due to leaving Islam? One should quietly move on when one has had many death threats made on one's life, due to ex-friends/family/ex-husband following their interpretation of Islam where they believe one should die for apostasy?

    One should be quiet and not talk about how Islam has negatively impacted on one's life... one should be quiet and not talk about how leaving Islam was one of the best things that could have ever happened to oneself?

    One should be quiet just like women in domestic violence relationships are told to be quiet and not talk about it by imams and sheikhs and shuyukh.

    Yeah, one should be quiet. One must not talk. One must not speak up. One must not express one's feelings. One must not express one's pain, or fears, or joys, or opinions/thoughts.

    One must be quiet. Leave quietly. Be invisible, as invisible as I was back there with my X and with my family. A no one with no mind, no opinions that I could express, a nobody.

    Be quiet.

  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #28 - June 27, 2012, 10:31 PM
    Quote from: Da_Dude on June 27, 2012, 10:24 PM
    So one should quietly move on when one has lost one's entire family due to leaving Islam? One should quietly move on when one has had many death threats made on one's life, due to ex-friends/family/ex-husband following their interpretation of Islam where they believe one should die for apostasy?

    One should be quiet and not talk about how Islam has negatively impacted on one's life... one should be quiet and not talk about how leaving Islam was one of the best things that could have ever happened to oneself?

    One should be quiet just like women in domestic violence relationships are told to be quiet and not talk about it by imams and sheikhs and shuyukh.

    Yeah, one should be quiet. One must not talk. One must not speak up. One must not express one's feelings. One must not express one's pain, or fears, or joys, or opinions/thoughts.

    One must be quiet. Leave quietly. Be invisible, as invisible as I was back there with my X and with my family. A no one with no mind, no opinions that I could express, a nobody.

    Be quiet.




    Finally someone agrees with me!
  • Re: Hi..what's your problem?
     Reply #29 - June 27, 2012, 10:33 PM
     Roll Eyes

    Either you're being sarcastic or you didn't read it properly.

    BTW, I was being sarcastic when I wrote my post... I wasn't telling anyone they should be quiet.
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