Raising secular children

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- Tonyt
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #30 - May 28, 2012, 08:17 PM

Quote from: chepea on May 28, 2012, 07:50 PM
You mentioned you were Egyptian. Would you want your children to be connected to their Egyptian roots? Because perhaps their culture could fill that religious void.

If you are Egyptian then you can teach your kids all about the long, epic history of Egyptian Civilization. That way they can be proud of their heritage independent of Islam. And also teach them to put Islam in it's historical perspective from an early age, i.e. that Islam is just the most recent part of an incredibly long and glorious history of their ancestors. There are tons of children's books and films on Ancient Egypt.
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #31 - May 29, 2012, 12:37 AM

Quote from: Mohamed on May 28, 2012, 02:28 PM
I definitely don't disagree with you, and in an ideal world I would tell them in an instant, but at least for the foreseeable future, I don't know how feasible it would be to tell my parents. My parents are NOT moderate - to them, islam is literally their whole life. Add to that the fact that my mom is sick, and would likely die from a heart attack on the spot if I were to ever tell her, lol.

Perhaps the only solution is to move away and minimize contact with my parents? Sigh...

Yeah Mohamed, it's tough when one's parents are strict. Mine are too, and I didn't think there would be anyway for me to ever tell them, but they found out anyway. They didn't and haven't taken it well,

You only tell your parents when you're ready. I don't believe that anyone should have to tell their parents until they are ready, as to me when it comes to really strict muslim parents, the social suicide, the disowning, the pain that goes with it, is incredible, and not something that anyone can tell another person to do.

As for lying to one's kids, I don't think it's a good idea, nor is forcing children into living a lie, unless of course one is living somewhere like Saudi or the ilk where lying would save one's life.

snip snip, Mohamed and Noha have read the bulk of this post, so am going to snip it now to leave just the beginning and end of it.

You do what you feel comfortable with, but I don't recommend teaching your kids to lie about who they are, or forcing them to practice what they don't want to. As for pretending to be muslim, it's not black and white, it's a tricky issue, and very painful whether you pretend for the rest of your life or end up telling them.
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #32 - May 29, 2012, 01:39 AM

Da_Dude...I'm so sorry to hear that . I'm happy to hear that you and your children are now safe from the tyranny of islam - and I hope it stays that way. Thank you very much for sharing that touching story and for sharing your words of wisdom. I can see that I have a lot to learn, and a lot to work out before I can even think of having children.

Quote from: BerberElla on May 28, 2012, 07:47 PM
That is the only real debate here, does the OP actively want to be the sort of parent who teaches his kids to lie from young to protect himself?

No way in hell. Thank you BerberElla and others for helping me put things into perspective.

Quote from: Tonyt on May 28, 2012, 08:17 PM
If you are Egyptian then you can teach your kids all about the long, epic history of Egyptian Civilization. That way they can be proud of their heritage independent of Islam. And also teach them to put Islam in it's historical perspective from an early age, i.e. that Islam is just the most recent part of an incredibly long and glorious history of their ancestors. There are tons of children's books and films on Ancient Egypt.

I like that, thank you .
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #33 - May 29, 2012, 01:51 AM

Da_Dude that was a very heart breaking story. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. I can't imagine not being in contact with my parents and I hope that we can figure out a way that will work for both parties. I hope your kids are not too scarred from that incident anymore :(. Thanks for the advice
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #34 - May 29, 2012, 02:51 AM

I'm crossing my fingers for you guys, hopefully it'll all work itself out.

You guys will make awesome parents!
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #35 - May 29, 2012, 03:00 AM

To be honest if possible under such a society where religion is that ingrained etc I would sterilise myself just to stop the perpetuation on to my kids.
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #36 - May 29, 2012, 03:08 AM

Quote from: Mohamed on May 29, 2012, 01:39 AM
I can see that I have a lot to learn, and a lot to work out before I can even think of having children.

Nah, it's just insert tab A into slot B, repeat. I'm sure you'll be able figure it out.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #37 - May 29, 2012, 03:42 AM

Quote from: asbie on May 29, 2012, 03:08 AM
Nah, it's just insert tab A into slot B, repeat.

You forgot 'stick pin in condom'.
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #38 - May 29, 2012, 03:52 AM

Maybe it is a little more complex than would appear at first glance.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #39 - May 29, 2012, 04:23 AM

LOL!
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #40 - May 29, 2012, 03:22 PM

Quote from: Mohamed on May 27, 2012, 03:07 PM
Not that I intend on having kids anytime soon, but reflections on my childhood along with my desire to keep my apostasy a secret from my parents has got me thinking - how would you raise your children in a secular way while still keeping it a secret from your religious parents? I know first hand what religious indoctrination can do to you and it goes without mention that I would never allow for my kids to go through that - but at the same time I would (ideally) like to maintain a good relationship with my parents. What are your thoughts?

to be

I think it depends on the environment you live in. How Islam figures in your family and what you think is important. My situation was a real mixed bag. My father is an atheist and my parents divorced when I was eight years old. My mother was a nominal Muslim till she reached her fifties and became more religious. My maternal uncle is an atheist and some of my extended family are sceptics or liberals. There are some hard liners and they seem to be from the younger generation. I'm not sure if they are aware of my apostasy or not. But they are probably aware that I used to be a thorough going holier than thou Muslim who has lapsed.

As far as my parents are concerned, they both know. My father is indifferent to it. My mother is appalled and prays for my guidance all the time. She used to insist that I have Peace TV and Islam Channel installed at home. I don't get into debates or discussions with my mother. Not because she's stupid or anything. On the contrary, she's an intelligent and educated lady. It's more emotional than anything else. I just quietly listen to what she has to say. It goes through one ear and out of the other. I know her concern for me is genuine and sincere and because of that I don't rub my atheism in her face.

Both my wife and I are raising the kids with an open mind. Not only does that include being open minded with religion or lack of it, but also in terms of sexuality. I would like to say that we are pretty liberal but firm with the kids. Teaching them to be courteous and polite and not to poke fun at the beliefs of others, but to examine them critically. That doesn't just include Islam but any received dogma.

There was a time when my mother would try to talk about religion to the kids and so on. But she has since learned that it isn't going to happen any more and that we have the last word.
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #41 - May 30, 2012, 08:59 AM

Quote from: Stardust on May 27, 2012, 03:32 PM
Make sure you don't end up making them live double lives, pretending to be a muslim etc, one of the crappiest things. Let them be young and free and if your parents ask then just say they're young, probably 'going through a phase' or something.

Living a double life really does suck. However, I am aware of people for whom this is an unfortunate reality and I have complete sympathy with them. If you come from a family where everyone and I mean everyone is a practising Muslim and for whom any other world view is simply inconceivable, then you need to be more pragmatic about the situation. This is especially true if you come from a close knit family and there is a fair amount at stake.
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #42 - June 01, 2012, 12:41 AM

on a lighter note..
keep the kids away from shows like...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qLa0ewGdWm4

*shivers*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #43 - June 01, 2012, 04:03 AM

^

...So they were saying drugs are okay, right?
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #44 - June 01, 2012, 04:12 AM

I think that bloke might really have been abducted by aliens.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #45 - June 01, 2012, 10:54 AM

Rachel Carlson Sense of Wonder

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #46 - November 05, 2012, 03:02 PM

I don't know if I'd want children, let alone raise them in a particular way. I am still unsure of life itself :(
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #47 - November 05, 2012, 03:53 PM

I try and expose my 2 daughters to science and reason. I was raised in a pretty secular family without religious rules and regulations (even though I converted to Islam) so bringing up my kids in a secular way just seems a natural thing to do.

They do have Quran and Islam classes twice a week because if their mum who is a believing Muslim. To counter any religious indoctrination I teach them about all religions in a very non biased way and ask them to look at each aspect of a religion using their common sense. I'll expose them to parts of religion that most parents keep from children and I'll ask them what they think. I will ask them to question things that children are told not to question. They don't like the story of Moses or Noah or Abraham. They don't like how an animal is killed to make it halaal. And this is not from me telling them its a bad thing it's from me just telling them the facts and asking them what they think.

They also know that I will love and accept them no matter what path they choose to follow. There is no fear or guilt they way religion uses that to make children believe. They will not have to lead a double life under my watch. It would be my failure as a parent to permit my kids having to lead a double life.

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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #48 - November 05, 2012, 04:38 PM

Introduce children to logic and rationale from an early age.

One aspect I don't like about the education system here is that no philosophy is taught until college level [Only then if you chose the philosophy subject].
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #49 - November 09, 2012, 10:02 AM

Quote from: Pepe on November 05, 2012, 03:53 PM
I try and expose my 2 daughters to science and reason. I was raised in a pretty secular family without religious rules and regulations (even though I converted to Islam) so bringing up my kids in a secular way just seems a natural thing to do.

I think my kids might be a little older than yours. My eldest two are 18 and 15 so they have pretty much decided that religion is nonsense. I'd like them to take it seriously and make an informed choice.

Quote
They do have Quran and Islam classes twice a week because if their mum who is a believing Muslim.

My kids simply aren't interested in learning parrot fashion from a mullah. My wife want's them to finish the Quran to conform with some sort of desi tradition! My mother is concerned about their lack of "Deeni" education.

Just out of curiosity Pepe. You said that your wife is a believing Muslimah. How does she square living with an apostate knowing that as far as her world view is concerned, the nikkah is invalid?

Quote
To counter any religious indoctrination I teach them about all religions in a very non biased way and ask them to look at each aspect of a religion using their common sense. I'll expose them to parts of religion that most parents keep from children and I'll ask them what they think. I will ask them to question things that children are told not to question. They don't like the story of Moses or Noah or Abraham. They don't like how an animal is killed to make it halaal. And this is not from me telling them its a bad thing it's from me just telling them the facts and asking them what they think.

We have a pact in our house where non of us discuss religion at all. Whatever the kids learn about religion comes from their R.E lessons at school and for now I want to keep it that way. All I really tell them is that they should think critically about any fantastical claim.

Quote
They also know that I will love and accept them no matter what path they choose to follow. There is no fear or guilt they way religion uses that to make children believe. They will not have to lead a double life under my watch. It would be my failure as a parent to permit my kids having to lead a double life.

I think our kids generation post-Rushdie, 9/11 and 7/7 will be more confident and won't lead a double life. Why should they be hostage to insecurities that we have had to face?
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Re: Raising secular children
Reply #50 - November 09, 2012, 12:37 PM

You two are great dads.

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Raising secular children
Reply #51 - August 05, 2013, 05:20 PM

Hmm This is a good to one add in to this folder "Raising secular children"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl79pDyDEjI
Jemima Khan on Islam, Imran and her kid Qasim and Suleman

and here is Imran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX0avR3H65s

That is five years ago.. great tube to watch., Imran you are a great guy .. An elephant with chicken brain.. You are in politics man., why do you need to speak like that in public? .. Daku.. chor.. murderer ..etc..etc..

Any ways., indeed such marriages are very tough on kids.. if both sides of families are pulling, ripping the kids apart from parents for stupid religions /stupid rituals, life of kids will become much tougher ..and and.. if you don't come from rich families.. the kids are dead.. they see hell on earth..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Raising secular children
Reply #52 - August 06, 2013, 05:54 PM

I've thought about this a lot as well.

A couple of points to keep in mind.

1. Just as you were smart enough to learn to hide your apostasy, your kids will likely be capable of hiding things for social sake as well. They're going to learn to deal with all kinds of people/religions/politics/family complications. They will learn. As long as their home is their sanctuary, they can deal with the world.

2. How much 'Islam' do you want to teach them. My wife and I compromised that they would be taught Islam in the sense of a loving god and prayer. I don't see too much harm in that. I was pretty adamant about not talking about hell or specific rules. In this way, they could pass as nominally lazy Muslims...
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Raising secular children
Reply #53 - August 06, 2013, 07:09 PM

My kids are being taught Quran and Islamic classes as their mum is a believer albeit not a strict one. I don't mind if they learn about Islam in their childhood from an Islamic teacher - I don't think it's evil indoctrination to learn about Islam and the teacher is quite a nice person.
However, outside of those classes I encourage a very relaxed attitude to Islam & I lead by example as I hardly ever do salat, apart from a Janazah prayer. I sometimes fast but that's as far as it goes. One of my daughters (not yet in her teens) sees this and she recently asked me why I don't do these things. I never go as far as to say I don't believe in God as I dont think she is ready for that but I say things like it's more important to have a kind heart and be a good person then do these things and I'm sure God will forgive me as he is supposed to be a merciful god. It's funny sometimes as I also throw in questions like what does god look like, why doesn't he talk to us and questions along those lines. I'm very subtle in the way I do it but I'm sure it makes her think and question. Whatever happens- if she becomes a devout muslim, atheist or even chooses another faith, it won't matter to me as I'll always love her irrespective of any of that.

When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
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