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 Topic: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran

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  • Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     OP - May 18, 2012, 11:35 PM

    Quote
    A Muslim woman who repeatedly beat a 10-year-old girl with a steel ladle for not reading enough verses of the Koran is facing jail today.

    Asia Parveen, 31 brandished a knife at the child after accusing her of lying about her prayers.

    Parveen, who was five months pregnant at the time, also forced the girl to stand with her arms outstretched for four hours, Snaresbrook Crown Court heard.

    The girl, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, escaped from the house in Stoke Newington, north London, and police found her alone at a bus stop in Waltham Forest, east London, almost four hours later in the early hours of the morning.

    Doctors identified 56 injuries when she was examined at hospital,

    Parveen, who is a mother-of-three, accepted causing some of the injuries with the ten inch cooking spoon but said others must have been caused when the girl 'fell over.'

    Daily Mail
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #1 - May 18, 2012, 11:40 PM

    Sounds like a great mother. Roll Eyes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #2 - May 18, 2012, 11:43 PM

    Thing is these things happen, especially is desi culture (maybe not so extreme as in this case), people immigrate to the uk and still have the mentality they were raised with over there where beating their children into obedience is fine, scaring them into 'staying straight' and not getting liberal as the westerners are....and when ethnic communities ghetto themselves, that also leads to that mentality not being broken so easily...

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #3 - May 19, 2012, 12:02 AM

    Quote

    Sounds like a great mother. Roll Eyes

    Thing is these things happen, especially is desi culture (maybe not so extreme as in this case), people immigrate to the uk and still have the mentality they were raised with over there where beating their children into obedience is fine, scaring them into 'staying straight' and not getting liberal as the westerners are....and when ethnic communities ghetto themselves, that also leads to that mentality not being broken so easily...


    That link doesn't say.. the lady is that girl's mother, Such brutal beatings of kids  within desi  homes happens only in step mother/ step father cases, It is rarely happens in normal Muslim homes unless  there are other problem involved.  More over, she doesn't have any burkha on her..



    Why is she blaming the girl for not reading Quran, when she herself appears not reading Quran or not even behaving like normal Muslim lady??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #4 - May 19, 2012, 12:40 AM

    ^
    1. good muslims love their children.
    2. good muslims follow Koran.

    So... when did al-qa'ida hire you as their PR manager?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #5 - May 19, 2012, 03:07 AM

    I feel for this girl, I hope for her that life gets better and she finds safety and peace.  Cry

    Reading things like this makes me so glad I left my X for my kids sake let alone my own sake. Considering his abusive behaviour towards my daughter when she was only a toddler, I can only imagine where it would've led as she got older. Thank fuck I left when I did.

    That link doesn't say.. the lady is that girl's mother, Such brutal beatings of kids  within desi  homes happens only in step mother/ step father cases, It is rarely happens in normal Muslim homes unless  there are other problem involved.  More over, that doesn't have any burkha on her..

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Why is she blaming the girl for not reading Quran, when she herself appears not reading Quran or not even behaving like normal Muslim lady??

     

     bullshit on all fronts of what you've just said. BS. And no, it's not only step parents who abuse their kids, and "normal" muslim families abuse their kids too. I should know, my parents are still together, and it wasn't exactly a walk in the park for me as a kid and even though I'm not pakistani, the pakistani parents I knew who abused their kids were the birth parents and not step-parents as you've assumed. I've known in my life-time plenty of "normal" muslim families from arabic backgrounds and pakistani backgrounds who abuse/d their kids. The only ones I haven't seen abuse their kids were indonesian parents, they seemed to have very loving relationships with their kids and didn't use physically punish their kids, that's not to say though that there wouldn't be indonesian parents who abuse their kids, as we all know that in every culture abuse towards children does happen and far too frequently.

    What do you constitute as being a "normal" muslim family yeezevee?

    What is a "normal" muslim lady supposed to act like?

    Yeah she doesn't wear hijab or niqab, so what? That doesn't mean that she's not religious, it just means that culturally she probably doesn't think it's required and might interpret the qu'ran  and hadith differently.

    "Devout" and "good" muslims disobey the qu'ran all the time, disobey islam all the time, it's just that people take what they like and ditch the rest or follow what they've been taught or their particular version/brand of Islam. You have muslims who look down on those who don't wear the niqab, and hijabis who look down on those wearing the niqab, and non-hijab non-niqab women who look down on both and can be very religious, sometimes more so than those who do wear it.

    Like muslim men who do anal on their wives even though it's haraam and yet will pray tahajjud and grow a beard and do extra sawm outside of Ramadhan. It's not about true obedience, it is impossible to follow all the rules of Islam anyway, it's impossible to be a perfect muslim as there are so many rules and sunnah that one cannot possibly do it. So people do what they like and act as though they know what they're on about. How can it be construed that she didn't feel it was in her right to hit her child according to islam when according to hadith and 'ulema it's the parents duty to hit their children for not praying, and this is only one step up from that. Of course parents who don't have power issues, won't feel the need to abuse their children, but even then, it can be hard for parents who grew up in that way and have sunnah and 'ulema backing to hit their children for not being religious enough to know any other way.

    We have parents in the west who are Caucasian who even though they don't have any religious dogma telling them to punish their kids for not doing their religious duty who still abuse their kids even though they know it's wrong legally, as thats how they were raised and so they think that's the only answer in getting kids to listen and obey, and that's just those who don't go onto more chronic forms of it where the parents punish their children solely out of a power play. And these are people who don't have religious backing to do so.

    Having religious backing to commit abuse gives parents license to do what they want and feel justified, it's just another excuse.

    The thing is that it's illegal in the west to harm a child physically, especially if it leaves a mark or is done with an instrument. In pakistan and all over the arab world it's not so clear cut, parents get away with it all the time, usually only really severe cases will have something done about it and even then, the parent's are usually viewed as owning a child and therefore given more leniency. The cycle is one that increases with use, and becomes difficult to control on behalf of the parents, rage leads to more rage. Hitting a child out of anger is very risky that the parent will only get worse and do it for little things or imagined slights. And the cycle of abuse passes from generation to generation just like it does here, except that here it's getting harder for parents to keep passing it down as parents realize that it's not worth physically abusing a child where there is the risk that they could go to jail for it or have their children removed.

    Also, child-protection enforce parenting classes on those who are in the high risk for abusing their children and so parents have greater means to learn how to parent effectively without using physical punishment. When parents from arabic or pakistani backgrounds come to the west, the UK, australia or where-ever, they think it's ok, not realizing or fully comprehending that they will get in trouble if they get caught. And people do do it 'cause they have religious justification.

    Punishing another person for not being religious enough or good enough, is just one way to assert power over that person and make the perpetrator feel good about themselves for asserting through punishment and physical abuse that the other person isn't as good a "whatever" as they are.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #6 - May 19, 2012, 06:05 AM


    Childhood should be a carefree and innocent time, filled with love and loving to learn. It is very sad when children are beaten and abused. There is definitely a point where discipline becomes abuse and torment. This childs mother went there. Child abuse crosses all socio-economic lines, regardless it is wrong. Breaking the chain is a laboursome process. Like has been mentioned child raising techniques and ideas are deeply rooted in cultures. This woman may face a prison sentence. Who wins? Does the Mother or Child truly win by a prison sentence? What will be done in the prison to help the woman change? Where will the child live? With strangers? This is an area, broken family relationships, where I see the prison system as being broken. Family counseling and monitoring may perhaps be of greater benifit. Perhaps even extended family counseling which includes grandparents and aunts and uncles. I have seen cases where the grandparents get the child and then blame the child for their own parent being in prison. Or even the child blaming themself for there parents incarceration. What a double slap for a child. Even coming through security at the prison to visit their parents is hard on children.There are so many tangled webs in family relationships every action to mend is of such great importance.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #7 - May 19, 2012, 08:35 AM

    But why did she choose a ladle?  that's so dumb, she should have called my step mum, she could have told her that these:



    are far more effective than these:



    and they leave a prettier pattern of bruises too.

    Seriously, someone needs to educate these newbs to abuse.  If you're gonna beat your child, do it right. 


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #8 - May 19, 2012, 08:56 AM

    I feel for this girl, I hope for her that life gets better and she finds safety and peace.  Cry

    Reading things like this makes me so glad I left my X for my kids sake let alone my own sake. Considering his abusive behaviour towards my daughter when she was only a toddler, I can only imagine where it would've led as she got older. Thank fuck I left when I did.
     

     bullshit on all fronts of what you've just said. BS. And no, it's not only step parents who abuse their kids, and "normal" muslim families abuse their kids too. I should know, my parents are still together, and it wasn't exactly a walk in the park for me as a kid and even though I'm not pakistani, the pakistani parents I knew who abused their kids were the birth parents and not step-parents as you've assumed. I've known in my life-time plenty of "normal" muslim families from arabic backgrounds and pakistani backgrounds who abuse/d their kids. The only ones I haven't seen abuse their kids were indonesian parents, they seemed to have very loving relationships with their kids and didn't use physically punish their kids, that's not to say though that there wouldn't be indonesian parents who abuse their kids, as we all know that in every culture abuse towards children does happen and far too frequently.

    What do you constitute as being a "normal" muslim family yeezevee?

    What is a "normal" muslim lady supposed to act like?

    Yeah she doesn't wear hijab or niqab, so what? That doesn't mean that she's not religious, it just means that culturally she probably doesn't think it's required and might interpret the qu'ran  and hadith differently.

    "Devout" and "good" muslims disobey the qu'ran all the time, disobey islam all the time, it's just that people take what they like and ditch the rest or follow what they've been taught or their particular version/brand of Islam. You have muslims who look down on those who don't wear the niqab, and hijabis who look down on those wearing the niqab, and non-hijab non-niqab women who look down on both and can be very religious, sometimes more so than those who do wear it.

    Like muslim men who do anal on their wives even though it's haraam and yet will pray tahajjud and grow a beard and do extra sawm outside of Ramadhan. It's not about true obedience, it is impossible to follow all the rules of Islam anyway, it's impossible to be a perfect muslim as there are so many rules and sunnah that one cannot possibly do it. So people do what they like and act as though they know what they're on about. How can it be construed that she didn't feel it was in her right to hit her child according to islam when according to hadith and 'ulema it's the parents duty to hit their children for not praying, and this is only one step up from that. Of course parents who don't have power issues, won't feel the need to abuse their children, but even then, it can be hard for parents who grew up in that way and have sunnah and 'ulema backing to hit their children for not being religious enough to know any other way.

    We have parents in the west who are Caucasian who even though they don't have any religious dogma telling them to punish their kids for not doing their religious duty who still abuse their kids even though they know it's wrong legally, as thats how they were raised and so they think that's the only answer in getting kids to listen and obey, and that's just those who don't go onto more chronic forms of it where the parents punish their children solely out of a power play. And these are people who don't have religious backing to do so.

    Having religious backing to commit abuse gives parents license to do what they want and feel justified, it's just another excuse.

    The thing is that it's illegal in the west to harm a child physically, especially if it leaves a mark or is done with an instrument. In pakistan and all over the arab world it's not so clear cut, parents get away with it all the time, usually only really severe cases will have something done about it and even then, the parent's are usually viewed as owning a child and therefore given more leniency. The cycle is one that increases with use, and becomes difficult to control on behalf of the parents, rage leads to more rage. Hitting a child out of anger is very risky that the parent will only get worse and do it for little things or imagined slights. And the cycle of abuse passes from generation to generation just like it does here, except that here it's getting harder for parents to keep passing it down as parents realize that it's not worth physically abusing a child where there is the risk that they could go to jail for it or have their children removed.

    Also, child-protection enforce parenting classes on those who are in the high risk for abusing their children and so parents have greater means to learn how to parent effectively without using physical punishment. When parents from arabic or pakistani backgrounds come to the west, the UK, australia or where-ever, they think it's ok, not realizing or fully comprehending that they will get in trouble if they get caught. And people do do it 'cause they have religious justification.

    Punishing another person for not being religious enough or good enough, is just one way to assert power over that person and make the perpetrator feel good about themselves for asserting through punishment and physical abuse that the other person isn't as good a "whatever" as they are.

    you do have certain points and I understand cycle of Abuse in a family...

     I know Islam creates problems to women folks of the family., I understand Muslim men beating their children...  But I am sorry Da_Dude  I agree to disagree with you in this case.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #9 - May 19, 2012, 12:42 PM

    you do have certain points and I understand cycle of Abuse in a family...

     I know Islam creates problems to women folks of the family., I understand Muslim men beating their children...  But I am sorry Da_Dude  I agree to disagree with you in this case.

    That link doesn't say.. the lady is that girl's mother, Such brutal beatings of kids  within desi  homes happens only in step mother/ step father cases, It is rarely happens in normal Muslim homes unless  there are other problem involved.  More over, she doesn't have any burkha on her..

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Why is she blaming the girl for not reading Quran, when she herself appears not reading Quran or not even behaving like normal Muslim lady??


    Yeezevee, what point are you trying to make?

    I agree to disagree on the point that I think you were making that abuse only happen at the hand of step parents that simply is not the case.

    I don't know that Islam causes more cases of abuse then other ethic or religious or social groups.  My personal experience is that it doesn't.
     

    But one caseof child abuse is one to many.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #10 - May 19, 2012, 01:48 PM

    isn't the issue more of attitude to corporal punishment.  Many Scandinavian countries have a complete ban - why might that be?  Interestingly I came across a phrase about mental illness - more of an issue between heads than in a head.

    The Koran and Muslim culture generally do not have taboos against physical punishment.  If the basic assumptions are so different surely the results on the ground will be as well?

    http://www.nospank.net/durrant.htm

    Quote
    The Swedish Ban on Corporal Punishment:
    Its History and Effects
    Joan E. Durrant, Ph.D.
    From Family Violence Against Children: A Challenge for Society, Walter de Gruyter & Co., Berlin, New York, 1996. (pp.19-25)

    1 Introduction1
    For 5 years, from 1979-1984, Sweden was unique in the industrialized world for having passed the first explicit ban on corporal punishment. To many of us, particularly those of us living in North America, this appears to have been a radical and, to some, intrusive legal development. However, from the Swedish perspective, the law was the logical conclusion of an evolutionary process that unfolded over a period of decades.

    The present chapter will provide an outline of this development followed by an evaluation of the effects of the law. First it is important to note that Swedish society as a whole has undergone an evolution over the past century that has produced an increasingly collective and egalitarian social context in which such legal changes have taken place. Promotion of children's physical and mental health has become a cornerstone of family policy, as reflected in Sweden's well-developed child care system, parental leave and sickness insurance provisions, and health care system. Moreover, the Swedish state has increasingly moved into what has traditionally been considered to be the private sphere with the support of the majority of its citizens.


    2 History of the Swedish Law

    2.1 Early Attempts to Reduce Corporal Punishment, 1920s - 1940s

    One hundred years ago, corporal punishment was common in Sweden and many children experienced severe beatings (Sverne, 1992). But by 1928, there was sufficient concern about this situation that the Education Act was amended to forbid corporal punishment in the gymnasiums (secondary schools). Sweden was one of the first countries to implement such a measure. Its significance is made clear when one notes that corporal punishment is still legally sanctioned in Canadian schools more than half a century later.

    The success of this early measure, together with continuing concern about the level of violence permitted toward children in the home, led to a change in the Parenthood and Guardianship Code (a civil code governing family law) in 1949. In an attempt to reduce severe beatings, the word "punish" was replaced by "reprimand" in the section defining permissible parental behavior. The legal defense for corporal punishment remained in place, however, in both the Parents' Code and the Penal Code.


    2.2 Increasingly Explicit Legislative Changes, 1950s and 1960s

    The inadequacy of changing the wording of the corporal punishment defense became apparent throughout the 1950s. Parental violence was continuing to occur, and it was believed that maintaining the defense in the legal codes was contributing to this problem by providing an explicit sanctioning of corporal punishment. In 1957, the section permitting parents to use force in reprimanding their children was completely removed from the Penal Code. The intent of this change was to provide children with the same protection from assault that adults receive and to clarify the grounds for criminal prosecution of parents who abused their children. Parents' rights to use corporal punishment had still not been eliminated completely, however, as the Parents' Code still contained a paragraph permitting this practice. This situation allowed parents to use mild forms of physical discipline that would not constitute assault: under the Penal Code. The inconsistency of these two sets of laws was eliminated in 1966, when the parental right to use corporal punishment was removed from the Parents' Code.

    At the same time that laws permitting corporal punishment in the home were being repealed, so were those allowing this form of discipline to take place in other child care settings. In 1959, an "experiment" was carried out in the welfare schools; the teachers were asked to refrain from using corporal punishment for 1 year, after which they could evaluate the success of this approach. While there was some initial resistance to this idea and some debate in the media, during the course of that year, a change took place in the Headmasters' beliefs such that they no longer felt that beating was necessary and the media debate diminished considerably (Linde, 1978). As a result, 1960 witnessed the abolition of corporal punishment in the Statutes for Child Care Institutions and Reformatory Schools. It was expected that now parents and other caregivers would cease to use physical force.

    By this time, interest had been generated in assessing the effect of these legislative changes on public support for corporal punishment. One of the two largest public opinion polling organizations in Sweden carried out a series of national surveys through the late 1960s and early 1970s. Respondents were asked in each survey whether they thought that corporal punishment was sometimes necessary. Between 1965 and 1968, the percentage who thought that it was necessary declined from 53% to 42% (SIFO, 1981). By 1971, this percentage had declined even further to 35% (SIFO, 1981). Also, between 1965 and 1971, the proportion of Swedes who believed that children should be brought up without the use of corporal punishment increased from 35% to 60% (SIFO, 1981)

    .......


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #11 - May 19, 2012, 10:25 PM

    isn't the issue more of attitude to corporal punishment.  Many Scandinavian countries have a complete ban - why might that be?  Interestingly I came across a phrase about mental illness - more of an issue between heads than in a head.

    The Koran and Muslim culture generally do not have taboos against physical punishment.  If the basic assumptions are so different surely the results on the ground will be as well?

    http://www.nospank.net/durrant.htm


    o

    Interesting that you bring mental health into the issue.

    I couldn't  see that the meaning  of your statement or phrase "more an of an issue  between heads then in a head" being expounded on in the article you posted. I don't really understand what the statement is intended to mean.

    Anyhow a lot of mental health issues are involved here. That of the parent extending punishment to the child. The resulting mental health of the child.

    I need to read the article more closely however corporal punishment extended in schools is a very different issue the parents disciplining their own children.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #12 - May 19, 2012, 10:40 PM

    This is disgusting, I've always had a feeling religion makes good people do bad things. I don't know about this woman being a good person, but if it wasn't for Islam and the Quran that girl would have gotten abused like she did.

    I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

    John Galt.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #13 - May 19, 2012, 10:48 PM

    Yes of course, because the Quran says that any ten year old girl who lies about her prayers should have the shit beaten out of her with a steel ladle. It's one of the pillars of Islam, right? There couldn't possibly be any other issues here.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #14 - May 19, 2012, 10:50 PM

    I always heard form parents/elders that corporal punishment was justified once you turned 10 for missing prayers.

    I still didn't do all my prayers and lied about it, but yeah the implicit threat was always there.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #15 - May 19, 2012, 10:57 PM

    Is that corporal punishment shit true?? I thought my grandma just wanted to scare me... Seriously some things sound even more fucked up, now I've left the religion.

    I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

    John Galt.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #16 - May 20, 2012, 03:09 AM

    I always heard form parents/elders that corporal punishment was justified once you turned 10 for missing prayers.

    I still didn't do all my prayers and lied about it, but yeah the implicit threat was always there.


    Could you give a reference or is that just the tradition in your area.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #17 - May 20, 2012, 06:23 AM

    Quote
    Hadith - Bukhari (#883) and Abu Dawud

    Nafi' said, "Ibn 'Umar used to beat his children for mistakes in diction."

    Hadith - Dawud, Narrated As-Saburah

    [Also recorded by Ahmand and al-Hakim. Al-Syuti has give in a notation signifying that it is authentic. Al-Albani has graded it hasan. Al-Albani, Sahih al-Jami, vol. 2, p. 1021.]

    The Prophet said: Order your children to pray at the age of seven. And beat them if they do not do so by the age of ten.  And separate them in their bedding.

  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #18 - May 20, 2012, 10:20 AM

    i hope she has got good lawyers because I think she should be acquitted because of those hadith.  What will then happen will be very interesting!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #19 - May 20, 2012, 10:22 AM

    It is the Nuremberg principle - should you follow unlawful orders.  The laws are not unlawful in Islam....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #20 - May 20, 2012, 10:26 AM

    o

    Interesting that you bring mental health into the issue.

    I couldn't  see that the meaning  of your statement or phrase "more an of an issue  between heads then in a head" being expounded on in the article you posted. I don't really understand what the statement is intended to mean.

    Anyhow a lot of mental health issues are involved here. That of the parent extending punishment to the child. The resulting mental health of the child.

    I need to read the article more closely however corporal punishment extended in schools is a very different issue the parents disciplining their own children.


    The article is about all corporate punishment, but it was experience in schools that led to the ban.

    And mental health is critically involved.  As Hitchen said all you need for good people to do evil is religion.  Is it not by definition mad for a mother to hit their child for what - not saying prayers five times - a Zarathustran idea imported into Islam, or stumbling over their words?

    Quote
    more an of an issue  between heads then in a head

     is precisely to the point!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #21 - May 20, 2012, 03:31 PM




    Thx.  Afro

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #22 - May 20, 2012, 05:40 PM

    Physical abuse can happen to anyone regardless of religion or not. However, beating for religious reasons is just disgraceful. Pleasing God comes first, to hell with the emotions of everyone else.  Roll Eyes

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #23 - May 21, 2012, 04:29 AM

    The article is about all corporate punishment, but it was experience in schools that led to the ban.

    And mental health is critically involved.  As Hitchen said all you need for good people to do evil is religion.  Is it not by definition mad for a mother to hit their child for what - not saying prayers five times - a Zarathustran idea imported into Islam, or stumbling over their words?
     


    Will yes however corporal punishment carried out by a non parent falls into a very different category then that carried out by someone who has the loving concern and emotional attachment of a parent or family member. So really the article would be to simplistic to carry much weight standing alone if it is combining both aspects of corporal punishment.

    Hitchen has said some good and useful things however on closer examination most people who do evil things in the name of religion were not necessarily nice and/or good to start with. There are very many parents who have not beaten their child with a metal laddle for mispronouncing recitation of the Qur'an.

    To assert that the religion it self caused the abuse is a very far sweeping claim. If you would like to prove your point be my guest I'm interested in seeing how you present your case.

    No doubt mental health is an issue in fact that is what I said.

    There are two levels that mental health needs to be looked at that I can think of.

    1- The mental health of the person committing the abuse.

    2- Mental health recovery of the victim.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #24 - May 21, 2012, 05:13 AM




    Thanks Da_Dude
    So there is a Hadith to support this beating.

    There would be some interesting points for meditation for those people that support this idea of physical punishment  for mispronouncing.

    -If there is an age to start beating at what age do you stop beating? Who beats the grandfathers  who mispronounces?
    -What is the case for people with speech or learn disabilities? Should they be beat all their life?
    -Is exception made for non native sneakers for not having a prefect acsent ?  Or are they beat continuously?
    -What is more important understanding or showy display.

    Hmmm..... Just a thought.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #25 - May 25, 2012, 11:10 AM

    I find the woman doing this disgusting Islamically justified or not, it's just wrong.

    Its upto the child if she reads or not, you can't exactly do that all her life growing up.  Eventually she is a adult to do her own decisons

    This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.

    https://twitter.com/#!/BornWithNoSoul
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #26 - May 25, 2012, 02:24 PM

    Goffman in Asylums and other works discusses the idea of institutionalisation.  In brief, new inmates are changed through various indoctrination processes on entering total institutions.

    Islam looks like a classic total institution, but because it is so common a way of being and probably because of political correctness, I am unaware that it has been looked at from this perspective.

    Arguably suicide bombing and beating children are predictable behaviours from people exposed to this institution.

    And don't forget the other wierd behaviours - stoning for blasphemy, not driving, wearing strange clothing, amputation, fgm, against polio vaccinations...

    Quote
    A total institution is a place of work and residence where a great number of similarly situated people, cut off from the wider community for a considerable time, together lead an enclosed, formally administered round of life.[1]:44[2]:855[3] The term was coined and defined by American sociologist Erving Goffman in his paper "On the Characteristics of Total Institutions" presented in April 1957 at the Walter Reed Institute's Symposium on Preventive and Social Psychiatry,[4]:1 with an expanded version appearing in Donald Cressey's collection The Prison[5] and reprinted in Goffman's 1961 collection Asylums.[1][3][4]:1 In Discipline and Punish, Michel Foucault discussed total institutions in the language of complete and austere institutions.[6]:231

    The main point of the total institution is that many human needs of the entire bloc of people are under bureaucratic control.[7] These needs are handled in an impersonal and bureaucratic manner.[8] Typically, the inmate is excluded from knowledge of the decisions taken concerning his fate.[4]:9 Whether the official grounds are medical, as in concealing treatment plan, diagnosis, and rough length of stay from tuberculosis patients, or military, as in concealing travel destination from enlisted men, such exclusion provides staff with a special basis of control over and distance from inmates.[4]:9 People who enter a total institution are deprived of the supports provided by the social arrangements of their home worlds and undergo a series of mortification of self.[9]:liv The inmate suffers a mortification of self via social and physical abuse.[8]

    A person's self is mortified by the following processes:[9]:liv-lvi

    1. Role dispossession. In civil life, people are free to plan their lives such that they can perform a succession of roles throughout the day and the life-cycle. Life is structured such that no single role forbids playing other roles. In the total institution, on the other hand, membership disturbs role-planning because the separation of the inmate from the wider world can continue indefinitely.

    2. Programming and identity trimming. Admissions procedures (such as bathing, searching, taking a life history, and instructing as to rules) function to code and shape the person into "an object that can be fed into the administrative machinery of the establishment." Such programming inevitably involves exclusion of most of the person’s prior bases of self-identification.

    3. Dispossession of property, name, and "identity kit". After admission to a total institution, people are stripped of certain possessions in which self feelings are invested. They usually lose their full name, are stripped of personal possessions and are denied access to the cosmetic and closing supplies or "identity kit" required for managing personal image. In the absence of these resources, people lose their capacity to present their usual image to others.

    4. Imposition of degrading postures, stances, and deference patterns. The inmate is often required to adopt stances and postures—such as submitting to strip searches or standing at attention—which mortify the self. Furthermore, the necessity of begging or asking for water, matches, cigarettes, or permission to use the telephone as well as staff expectations of verbal deference force the inmate into undignified verbal postures. Corresponding to the indignities the person must enact are the indignities he or she must suffer from others, such as poking at negative attributes, name-calling, and teasing. Whether the indignities are enacted by the person or imposed from without, they result in people adopting a stance inconsistent with their notion of self.

    5. Contaminative exposure. Contaminative exposure includes physical and interpersonal one. First, the person's information preserve is violated, since data about the person's past behaviors and social statuses are collected in a file accessible to staff. Further, as the total institution offers no private spaces to conceal usual private activities, the person is compelled to expose himself in humiliating circumstances. The person is also contaminated by forced interpersonal contact. The most obvious and direct example is forced submission to strip searches. More pervasive is the status-contamination people undergo by being mixed with people of different statuses and ages, and the denial of the right to hold oneself above others via a formal style of address.

    6. Disruption of usual relation of individual actor and his acts. In looping,[4]:35-37 any natural protective response by an individual to an assault on the self is "collapsed into the situation" as subject matter for the next assault, stripping the individual of the usual option to step back and comment on the situation. In regimentation or tyrannization,[4]:37-43 the individual is subject to regulation of minute details of activity and conduct that under normal circumstances are left to individual judgment and planning.

    7. Restrictions on self-determination, autonomy, and freedom of action.

    Goffman defines total institutions as social arrangements that regulate according to one rational plan and under one roof, all spheres of individuals' lives—working, playing, eating and sleeping.[9]:liv A principal social arrangement in a present community is that the human being tends to work, play and sleep in different places with different persons under different authorities and without any overarching plan.[10]:151 As Goffman states, the main characteristic of total institutions can be described as a disruption of the barriers usually separating these three spheres of life.[10]:151 Firstly, all aspects of life are conducted in the same place and under the same central authority.[10]:151 Secondly, each phase of the participant's daily activity is conducted in the immediate attendance of a large group of others, all of whom are treated similarly and required to do the same things jointly.[10]:151 Therefore, any autonomy or freedom to pursue one's own interests, make one's own choices or associate with the persons of one's own choosing is denied.[10]:151 Thirdly, all phases of the daily activities are closely planned, with one activity leading into the next at a prearranged time.[10]:151 This succession of activities is inflexibly imposed upon inmates from above.[10]:151 Finally, the different forced activities are brought together into an overall plan, presumably designated for accomplishing the objections of the institution.[10]:151


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_institution

    The buraecracy of Islam is the koran and hadith.  The Islamic schools are the training centres.  The ritual behaviours - which foot to step out with first, are obvious.

    Has no one asked is Islam a Total Institution?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #27 - May 25, 2012, 07:51 PM

    ^god your posts just keep getting better and better (that's not a compliment). Cheesy
  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #28 - May 25, 2012, 08:38 PM

    The buraecracy of Islam is the koran and hadith. 


  • Re: Muslim woman beat girl, 10, with steel ladle for not reading enough of Koran
     Reply #29 - May 26, 2012, 05:33 AM

    Goffman in Asylums and other works discusses the idea of institutionalisation.  In brief, new inmates are changed through various indoctrination processes on entering total institutions.

    Islam looks like a classic total institution, but because it is so common a way of being and probably because of political correctness, I am unaware that it has been looked at from this perspective.

    Arguably suicide bombing and beating children are predictable behaviours from people exposed to this institution.

    And don't forget the other wierd behaviours - stoning for blasphemy, not driving, wearing strange clothing, amputation, fgm, against polio vaccinations...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_institution

    The buraecracy of Islam is the koran and hadith.  The Islamic schools are the training centres.  The ritual behaviours - which foot to step out with first, are obvious.

    Has no one asked is Islam a Total Institution?


    Highly unlikely that it is in the 1957 sense of the word.

    Get real.

    Except in societies were that is absolutely no freedom of movement could such be the case.

    You make way to many assumption and just because you assert something is a fact does not make it so.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
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