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Theme Changer

 Topic: Agora

 (Read 2689 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Agora
     OP - January 03, 2012, 04:07 PM

    After watching a Historical drama Agora, It got me to thinking and this is something that i cant discuss in real life because its unfavourable to religion, so i have a questions to ask

    -Were the Greco-Romans pagans more educated and rational when its come to science than all the  Abrahamic organized religions as it was depicted seeing that the Greco-Roman pagans were the ones that gathered the works of classic antiquity only to be burned by the Christians?

    -If so, how were they able to reconcile their beliefs with Science.

    -Is it actually true that Christians werent allowed to read Bible but only priests do before?

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #1 - January 03, 2012, 05:19 PM

    -Were the Greco-Romans pagans more educated and rational when its come to science than all the  Abrahamic organized religions


    The only people that could get a formal education at this time were those that belong to or associated with the political and military elite. Considering that a large portion of the upper classes were pagan is unsurprising that most we would considered to be educated were pagan. But this doesn't mean that Christians were hostile to science or philosophy as the movie Agora implies.

    Quote
    it was depicted seeing that the Greco-Roman pagans were the ones that gathered the works of classic antiquity only to be burned by the Christians?

     
    All works of classical Greek and Latin we have now are the result of Christian monks copying them down by hand. The notion that Christians were actively destroying the works of classical antiquity has no evidence to back it up.

    Quote
    -If so, how were they able to reconcile their beliefs with Science.


    People like St Augustine promoted Classical science and philosophy as a way to better understand Christianity and help convert pagans.

    Quote
    Is it actually true that Christians weren't allowed to read Bible but only priests do before?

     

    For the most part priests were the only ones who were able to read, most people at the time were illiterate. But the clergy never tried to hold back people from reading the bible or acquire knowledge about it. In the late second century Pope St Victor I was the first pope to celebrate mass in Latin. A language that the common man could understand. (Greek was mostly used before and until the fourth century).
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #2 - January 03, 2012, 05:26 PM



    Quote
    -If so, how were they able to reconcile their beliefs with Science.


    Probably like people do today; through compartmentalizing, confirmation bias, or sheer ignorance of science. There was far less scientific knowledge back then to conflict with mythology, and common people were even more ignorant of science than they are today.

     

    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #3 - January 03, 2012, 06:14 PM

    @Frollo: I see, i was more interested on the inaccuracies of the movie,so there is no historical evidence that the works of Classical antiquity were really destroyed or burned?

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #4 - January 03, 2012, 07:04 PM

    After watching a Historical drama Agora, It got me to thinking and this is something that i cant discuss in real life because its unfavourable to religion, so i have a questions to ask

    -Were the Greco-Romans pagans more educated and rational when its come to science than all the  Abrahamic organized religions as it was depicted seeing that the Greco-Roman pagans were the ones that gathered the works of classic antiquity only to be burned by the Christians?



    The Greco-Romans were not only more rational in terms of science but also more rational in terms of religion. No pagan religion asked for absolute faith on the basis of divine salvation from divine wrath like Christianity. Instead, they all focused on individual spirituality and the quest for truth and wisdom that every single person undertakes for themselves. I'd much rather follow a worldview that asks me to become wise than one that asks me to become faithful.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #5 - January 03, 2012, 07:42 PM

    @Frollo: I see, i was more interested on the inaccuracies of the movie,so there is no historical evidence that the works of Classical antiquity were really destroyed or burned?


    Here are a few blog posts which deal with the inaccuracies in far more detail.

    http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2009/05/agora-and-hypatia-hollywood-strikes.html
    http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2010/05/hypatia-and-agora-redux.html
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #6 - January 03, 2012, 07:47 PM

    Socrates - is good from the gods or that which is right in itself?

    The Antikythera Mechanism

    Quote
    The Antikythera mechanism ( /ˌæntɨkɨˈθɪərə/ ant-i-ki-theer-ə or /ˌæntɨˈkɪθərə/ ant-i-kith-ə-rə) is an ancient mechanical computer[1][2] designed to calculate astronomical positions. It was recovered in 1900–1901 from the Antikythera wreck.[3] Its significance and complexity were not understood until decades later. Its time of construction is now estimated between 150 and 100 BC.[4] Technological artifacts of similar complexity and workmanship did not reappear until the 14th century, when mechanical astronomical clocks were built in Europe.[5]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

    The Archimedes Palimpsest.  Is it deliberate destruction to scrape off archimedes proof of calculus so that you have something to put psalms on - of which you already have a myriad copies  - but only one of archimedes work?

    http://www.archimedespalimpsest.org/

    Quote
    Welcome. The subject of this website is a manuscript of extraordinary importance to the history of science, the Archimedes Palimpsest. This thirteenth century prayer book contains erased texts that were written several centuries earlier still. These erased texts include two treatises by Archimedes that can be found nowhere else, The Method and Stomachion. The manuscript sold at auction to a private collector on the 29th October 1998. The owner deposited the manuscript at The Walters Art Museum in Baltimore, Maryland, a few months later. Since that date the manuscript has been the subject of conservation, imaging and scholarship, in order to better read the texts. The Archimedes Palimpsest project, as it is called, has shed new light on Archimedes and revealed new texts from the ancient world. These new texts include speeches by an Athenian orator from the fourth century B.C. called Hyperides, and a third century A.D. commentary on Aristotle’s Categories.

    The project, which is in its twelfth year, has generated a great deal of public curiosity, as well as the interest of scholars throughout the world. All the raw imaging data, as well as transcriptions of the unique texts in the manuscript have been published on the web. The definitive account of the project, and images and transcriptions of the unique texts in the manuscript have been published by Cambridge University Press, and an exhibition about the project “Lost and Found: The Secrets of Archimedes”, opens at The Walters Art Museum on October 16, and runs through the end of the year.

    All sorts of information about the Archimedes Palimpsest and the project to retrieve its text can be found on this site, and there is even more to see in the exhibition.


    And Hypatia - a woman note - had worked out the earth goes around the sun in an ellipsis.

    Without Constantine and Ambrose we would be out in the stars now.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #7 - January 04, 2012, 03:08 AM

    Thanks for the interesting link guys Afro


    I noticed that watching Hollywood historic drama is like reading hardcore science fiction; to find the inaccuracies.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #8 - January 04, 2012, 07:12 AM

    And Hypatia - a woman note - had worked out the earth goes around the sun in an ellipsis.


    No she didn't.

    Without Constantine and Ambrose we would be out in the stars now.


    No we wouldn't.

  • Re: Agora
     Reply #9 - January 04, 2012, 07:20 AM

    And Hypatia - a woman note - had worked out the earth goes around the sun in an ellipsis.

    You mean sorta like this?

    ..................Earth.................Sun.......................Earth............................ .

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #10 - January 04, 2012, 10:22 AM

    Moi, do you really comprehend your links before you post them?

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #11 - January 04, 2012, 10:53 AM

    You mean sorta like this?

    ..................Earth.................Sun.......................Earth............................ .


    lol

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #12 - May 07, 2012, 05:54 PM

    More like this

    http://www.windows2universe.org/physical_science/physics/mechanics/orbit/perihelion_aphelion.html
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #13 - May 07, 2012, 05:55 PM

    Perihelion - N Hemisphere Summer position, Aphelion S Hemisphere Summer position.
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #14 - May 07, 2012, 07:26 PM

    -Were the Greco-Romans pagans more educated and rational when its come to science than all the  Abrahamic organized religions.....If so, how were they able to reconcile their beliefs with Science.


    Well the Greco-Roman Pagans were a varied bunch, generally the more educated they were, the less they were inclined to believe in myths and religions. Many of the Philosophers and scientists were outspoken atheists, agnostics, or skeptics. Whilst others believed that there was a single supreme diety and argued for it's existence using logic and reason. But paganism in the sense of believing in a whole host of gods and goddesses. I would use the modern analogy of WWF wrestling. Of the people who watch it, some actually believe that the fighting is real and not acting, whilst others know that it is acting but they still watch it for it's entertainment value, that is kind of how Greco-Romans saw Pagan religion, some believed it whilst others just thought they were fun stories.

    it was depicted seeing that the Greco-Roman pagans were the ones that gathered the works of classic antiquity only to be burned by the Christians?


    In the early days science and philosophy were associated with the Greco-Roman Pagan elite and so Christians were suspicious of it. However as time went on, more and more educated people started becoming Christian, and as that happened it became neccesary for Christians to debate Pagans on philosophical grounds, so science and even philosophy began to be incorporated into Christianity. In the early days in fact it was impossible to get a Christian and scientific education together. But after the reign of Julian (the last Pagan Emperor) it began to be possible to get an education that included both Christian and Scientific/Philosophical ideas.

    As for Christians burning literature and science. Usually this happened with relation to mob violence, i.e. an uncontrolled mob ransacking a library or temple. It was only rarely that literature or philosophical works were purposefully burnt by decree from a Christian Emperor, and usually this was only for works that were specifically critical of Christianity, such as the writings of Porphyry or Celsus. Of course the Christian Emperors did close down schools of Philosophy, such as the Neo-Platonic School at Athens, on the grounds that they were a threat to Christian belief. The Philosphers there fled and went into exile in Persia.

    Some important and influential early Christian writers did condemn scientific research. St. Augustine's called it a "sin of curiosity" to seek to understand the laws of nature that God ordained and are beyond human understanding. So probably yes, Christianity probably did hold scientific research back, we all know the story of Galileo being threatened to be burnt at the stake for saying that the earth evolved around the sun.
  • Re: Agora
     Reply #15 - May 07, 2012, 07:45 PM



    LOl, that guy actually wrote a review of the film before he had even seen it. Anyway most of his criticisms of the film are simply straw man attacks. The film never even suggests that the Christians destroyed the Great Library of Alexandria. And the film makes it clear at the end that Hypatia's works are lost and that we can only speculate as to what they may have contained.
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