Anything goes between Consenting Adults?

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #150 - April 16, 2012, 09:53 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 09:40 PM
Which is why incest should only be legalized for adults.

Parents or older siblings can still unconsciously or consciously groom a child to become a sexual partner for them when they become 'legal' - and I'm seriously concerned that legalizing incest is almost an open invitation.

The position of authority that parents are naturally in, and the unique relationship of co-habiting siblings, IMO makes the relationships wide open to systematic manipulation.

I don't think it would take much for an intelligent amoral parent or older sibling to manipulate the deep bond that a younger sibling has with them years before they are 'legal' to facilitate a future sexual relationship. In order to prevent that I think it's best to keep it a social taboo, and illegal.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #151 - April 16, 2012, 09:58 PM

Social taboo? Okay, I'll agree with you there, but illegal? I'm not sure using potential social consequences to criminalize consenting behavior is ever ethically justified. That sort of consequentialist mentality has been used to keep many oppressive and unjust laws on the books. That being said, I'm not in a big rush to legalize incest (same opinion on post-pubescent stat rape).

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #152 - April 16, 2012, 10:06 PM

SD, You can say that about any sexual relationship. I could go to my school and "groom" kids in grade 2 to have sex with me when they're legal. I could do that to my younger cousins. Do you really think that if the incest taboo and laws suddenly disappeared, everyone would be fucking their sister overnight? Evolution has taken care of that -- it won't happen with the overwhelming majority of people.

Besides, let's say someone has been groomed to have sex with someone else when they're legal. To simplify matters, in a non-incestuous context. Do we have the right to tell this adult not to be in this relationship because he or she was "groomed" into wanting it? IMO, the grooming should be illegal, not consensual adult relationships of any kind.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #153 - April 16, 2012, 10:07 PM

I think that the realisitic potential for widespread grooming by parents and older siblings (though I'm open to having this assessment challenged) justifies making it illegal.

I think it's the same underlying reasoning (this is a poor analogy, but I hope you get the gist) that justifies curtailing freedom of speech in regards to shouting 'fire!' falsely in a public setting.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #154 - April 16, 2012, 10:13 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 10:07 PM
I think it's the same underlying reasoning (this is a poor analogy, but I hope you get the gist) that justifies curtailing freedom of speech in regards to shouting 'fire!' falsely in a public setting.

No, it's not. That's from a US Supreme Court decision that authorized restrictions of speech despite the First Amendment to the US Constitution when it's a clear and present danger-- not potential long-term social consequences as you are arguing. If the government were to restrict speech on that basis, they could restrict just about anything solely on the basis of speculation.

I can't believe there's yet ANOTHER incest thread on this forum. Is this really such a pressing issue, given all the much greater injustices and restrictions on personal liberty going on? We need to have this big ethical debate yet again cause some perv in Germany wants to bang his sister?

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #155 - April 16, 2012, 10:19 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 09:48 PM
All the research I've seen seems to indicate otherwise. And some of that research even involved making people watch gay porn with sensors attached to their penises

Besides, consider societies in which homosexuality is widely accepted. They haven't been overrun by FABULOUS men with a keen sense of style. ~~Who happen to like sucking cock.~~

Damn, I knew I should have availed myself of more "research opportunities" during college.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #156 - April 16, 2012, 10:20 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 10:06 PM
SD, You can say that about any sexual relationship. I could go to my school and "groom" kids in grade 2 to have sex with me when they're legal. I could do that to my younger cousins.

I think it's intellectually dishonest not to recognize the difference of the dynamics of the parent-child and co-habiting sibling's relationships when compared to the relationships you described. I'm sure you recognize that you have a different relationship with your younger sibling, than your younger classmate.

Quote
Do you really think that if the incest taboo and laws suddenly disappeared, everyone would be fucking their sister overnight?

Sexual abuse is a pretty widespread phenomena. Without deterents (and I believe that making incest illegal is one) it would be even more prevalent.

Quote
Besides, let's say someone has been groomed to have sex with someone else when they're legal. To simplify matters, in a non-incestuous context. Do we have the right to tell this adult not to be in this relationship because he or she was "groomed" into wanting it?

I think think we have we should do our best to deter grooming from taking place. And I think making incest illegal deters grooming. That's also why some places in the world have laws against teachers dating students because the law recognizes that the dynamics of the relationship makes it open to grooming.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #157 - April 16, 2012, 10:29 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 16, 2012, 10:13 PM
No, it's not. That's from a US Supreme Court decision that authorized restrictions of speech despite the First Amendment to the US Constitution when it's a clear and present danger-- not potential long-term social consequences as you are arguing. If the government were to restrict speech on that basis, they could restrict just about anything solely on the basis of speculation.

I hold my hands up that was a poor analogy.

In regards to the underlined part, you can use almost any line of reasoning (I mean that in a loose term) to justify almost conclusion - for instance you can use the veil of ignorance thought experiment to justify capitalism or communism. So I don't personally think that point has negated the basis of my arguments.

Could you present some specific arguments why you think my reasoning behind condoning legislation again incest is flawed?

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #158 - April 16, 2012, 10:34 PM

"I think it's intellectually dishonest not to recognize the difference of the dynamics of the parent-child and co-habiting sibling's relationships when compared to the relationships you described. I'm sure you recognize that you have a different relationship with your younger sibling, than your younger classmate. "

I think it would be easier for me to groom a younger classmate than my younger sibling. For one thing, the classmate wouldn't feel the Westermarck effect. And I wouldn't have to worry about the classmate blurting out about what I've been doing to my parents. And I wouldn't have to worry about having to know and stay in touch with the classmate for the rest of my life.

If you want to completely stop grooming, you'd have to outlaw relationships with a certain age difference. But who are we to tell a 20-year-old not to sleep with a 60-year-old? At any rate, you're going to have to show me research suggesting that a large majority of adult incestuous relationships involved grooming or abuse.

"And I think making incest illegal deters grooming."

Not necessarily. In fact, the more stigmatized incest is, the harder it will be for people to seek out help if they're in an abusive incestuous relationship. And if someone is going to illegally groom a younger sibling or child, they'll hardly be dissuaded by laws that are very hard to enforce, anyway. The people who will be hurt by such laws are the people you're least concerned about -- people like the couple in the earlier thread who just wanted to be with each other openly because they love each other.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #159 - April 16, 2012, 10:37 PM

Furthermore, legalizing incest would allow examples of healthy incestuous relationships to emerge, which would make it even harder to groom a younger sibling or child into a relationship that they don't feel comfortable with.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #160 - April 16, 2012, 10:41 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 10:29 PM
I hold my hands up that was a poor analogy.

In regards to the underlined part, you can use almost any line of reasoning (I mean that in a loose term) to justify almost conclusion - for instance you can use the veil of ignorance thought experiment to justify capitalism or communism. So I don't personally think that point has negated the basis of my arguments.

Could you present some specific arguments why you think my reasoning behind condoning legislation again incest is flawed?

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say legislation that imposed civil penalties is wrong, but I believe criminal penalties should be based on deontological rather than consequentialist ethics-- that consequences play any role should be limited to those which are immediate, such as harm. To put it in plain terms, I think only actions which are wrong in and of themselves should be subject to criminal penalty (and even then only when someone is harmed/rights are violated), and that social consequences/policy aren't enough to justify it-- you might be able to pick an example where my rule would be tested, but if so, the social consequences would have to be dire and convincing, not merely speculative.

And with that, my serious replies to this topic are done with on this thread. I don't think this is important enough of an issue to justify all the attention and argument it's been given here. In my opinion this thread belongs in the philosophy section.

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 10:37 PM
Furthermore, legalizing incest would allow examples of healthy incestuous relationships to emerge, which would make it even harder to groom a younger sibling or child into a relationship that they don't feel comfortable with.

Really? Geez. I was joking about those arguing for legalization being "pro-incest", but this argument is actually looking like it.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #161 - April 16, 2012, 10:43 PM

Quote
I think it would be easier for me to groom a younger classmate than my younger sibling. For one thing, the classmate wouldn't feel the Westermarck effect. And I wouldn't have to worry about the classmate blurting out about what I've been doing to my parents. And I wouldn't have to worry about having to know and stay in touch with the classmate for the rest of my life.

Many children who suffer sexual abuse, let alone grooming don't report it.

I think the question is what would cause siblings, or children to overcome the westermarck effect and desire to have a sexual relationship with their direct relatives as an adult? I'd be skeptical if it's anything other than grooming.

Quote
If you want to completely stop grooming, you'd have to outlaw relationships with a certain age difference. But who are we to tell a 20-year-old not to sleep with a 60-year-old?

I don't believe in all or nothing thinking. By using all or nothing thinking we would either have to be pro-life or advocate infanticide, because there is no objective demarcation when it's acceptable to have an abortion, and when it's not.

To reitrate, the unique dynamics of the relationship of co-habiting siblings and the parent-child relationship leaves it open to grooming IMO.

Quote
At any rate, you're going to have to show me research suggesting that a large majority of adult incestuous relationships involved grooming or abuse.

I admit my conclusion is mainly based on conjecture - like yours.

Quote
Also, I'm not convinced that you could groom someone to want to have sex with you when they're 18. They're too old at that age not to realize that they don't want it and that they could just call the police.

The age of consent is 16 in the UK, and varies (I'm sure you know) around the world. And I'm referring to grooming that takes place up to their legal age.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #162 - April 16, 2012, 10:49 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 10:43 PM
I think the question is what would cause siblings, or children to overcome the westermarck effect and desire to have a sexual relationship with their direct relatives as an adult? I'd be skeptical if it's anything other than grooming.

In my opinion, it's more likely a genetic variation.

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 10:43 PM
To reitrate, the unique dynamics of the relationship of co-habiting siblings and the parent-child relationship leaves it open to grooming IMO.

Okay, what about an incestuous relationship starting at the age of 40? Would you ban those too?

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 10:43 PM
I admit my conclusion is mainly based on conjecture - like yours.

But the burden of proof is on you to submit evidence, since you're the one calling for a certain act to be made illegal.

Also, as I said earlier, we should keep in mind that by stigmatizing incest, we make it harder for people who've been abused to come out and seek help.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #163 - April 16, 2012, 10:50 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 16, 2012, 10:41 PM
Well, I wouldn't necessarily say legislation that imposed civil penalties is wrong, but I believe criminal penalties should be based on deontological rather than consequentialist ethics-- that consequences play any role should be limited to those which are immediate, such as harm. To put it in plain terms, I think only actions which are wrong in and of themselves should be subject to criminal penalty (and even then only when someone is harmed/rights are violated), and that social consequences/policy aren't enough to justify it-- you might be able to pick an example where my rule would be tested, but if so, the social consequences would have to be dire and convincing, not merely speculative.

Oh ok, therein lies our difference. From what I can gather from reading pop philosophy I'm a consequentialist through and through.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #164 - April 16, 2012, 10:51 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 10:50 PM
Oh ok, therein lies our difference. From what I can gather from reading pop philosophy I'm a consequentialist through and through.

Most people are unfortunately-- which is why we have so many restrictive/oppressive laws in place. No offense personally.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #165 - April 16, 2012, 10:53 PM

Also, I don't see how you can effectively enforce such a law. People are still going to continue to groom and abuse. The only people you're going to affect are those who want to live openly as incestuous people.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #166 - April 16, 2012, 11:07 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 10:49 PM
In my opinion, it's more likely a genetic variation.

Based on? (I'm not dissin just curious)

Quote
Okay, what about an incestuous relationship starting at the age of 40? Would you ban those too?

Like I said I don't beleive in all or nothing thinking, there are always exceptions to a rule.

Quote
But the burden of proof is on you to submit evidence, since you're the one calling for a certain act to be made illegal.

OK. I admit it's conjecture, my case for arguing against legalizing incest is based on the potential for it's legalization facilitating grooming, and the possible psychological and social effects.

Though grooming does of course occur - and I'm sure you agree that it occurs.

I'd also like to see more research into the psychological effects of consensual incest relationships - but it's a pretty rare phenomena.

Quote
Also, as I said earlier, we should keep in mind that by stigmatizing incest, we make it harder for people who've been abused to come out and seek help.

I don't see how stigma against incest prevents abuse victims form seeking help? If it was normalized people would think that being 'groomed' is normal.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #167 - April 16, 2012, 11:08 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 16, 2012, 10:51 PM
Most people are unfortunately-- which is why we have so many restrictive/oppressive laws in place. No offense personally.

None taken.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #168 - April 16, 2012, 11:11 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 10:53 PM
Also, I don't see how you can effectively enforce such a law. People are still going to continue to groom and abuse. The only people you're going to affect are those who want to live openly as incestuous people.

It already is enforced in various countries. No deterrent is 100% effective - I'm not that naive. And I disagree - of course - I think it would protect people from grooming, and psychologically.

I'm offline now, I'll reply to any post tomorrow. See ya.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #169 - April 16, 2012, 11:15 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 11:07 PM
Based on? (I'm not dissin just curious)

It seems more likely to me that some people are born without the Westermarck genes -- as a normal random mutation -- than that those feelings can be removed psychologically by an abusive partner or sibling.

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 11:07 PM
Like I said I don't beleive in all or nothing thinking, there are always exceptions to a rule.

So you do agree that there's an age at which it would be absurd to outlaw incest?

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 11:07 PM
I don't see how stigma against incest prevents abuse victims form seeking help? If it was normalized people would think that being 'groomed' is normal.

Personal question, but, have you ever been sexually abused by a member of your family? It's much, much harder to come to terms with and talk to somebody about, largely because it's so stigmatized.

And I don't think so -- if it was normalized, kids could be told what is and is not acceptable behavior on the part of their siblings or parents, and they could talk about what their parents do to them to others more comfortably and the grooming, if present, would be detected much more easily.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #170 - April 16, 2012, 11:16 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 11:11 PM
It already is enforced in various countries. No deterrent is 100% effective - I'm not that naive. And I disagree - of course - I think it would protect people from grooming, and psychologically.

I'm offline now, I'll reply to any post tomorrow. See ya.

It's only enforced theoretically. But what happens behind closed doors is another matter.

Ciao!

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #171 - April 16, 2012, 11:55 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 16, 2012, 10:13 PM

I can't believe there's yet ANOTHER incest thread on this forum. Is this really such a pressing issue, given all the much greater injustices and restrictions on personal liberty going on? We need to have this big ethical debate yet again cause some perv in Germany wants to bang his sister?

Sorry mate, for bringing up the topic, it hadn't come up in the months I have been on here. It was the consentual adults bit that I wanted to concentrate on. Does this rule apply on every single occasion etc. And after the reading the replies it seems that indeed there is logical, dispassionate view that could be espoused, hell the whole hog, incest marriage! I mean if If you follow the argument for the legalisation of gay marriage to its logical conclusion then marriage is a private matter between the people involved and of no relevance to wider society, so I expect it is only a matter of time until incest and multiple person marriages are legalised.

Moi - do you think those people who oppose incest couplings are secretly yearning for sibling shenanigans, a la your homophobe-are-secret-gay thread?

The argument that the child of incestuous parents could have genetic abnormalities is true, but so could the child of parents with genetic abnormalities and they aren't banned from having sex. So could children born in areas of the world where there has been industrial pollution, but that's not banned. So could drinking or smoking during pregnancy, but that's not banned. As could births to over forty year olds, but that's not banned.

Sometimes I think age is a social constuct and some people require a lot longer than sixteen years to reach emotional maturity and some i suspect are not ready at 21. But that is another thread.

I don't actually believe that private behaviour has no public effect. Homosexual marriage, pre-marital sex, marriage, divorce, having children, raising children, adoption, drug taking, addiction, beliefs, all have social repercussions, something the 'anti-bigot' brigade are unwilling to acknowledge or think about too deeply. For them, individual rights trump societal ones and there can be no debate.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #172 - April 17, 2012, 12:14 AM

There can be a debate, but individual rights are still important. When the debate ends with the conclusion that something is not harmful to society, why should it stay banned? Gay marriage, for example - who does that harm?

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #173 - April 17, 2012, 12:34 AM

Homosexual marriages raise all kinds of issues around the health and wellbeing of children: surrogacy, adoption, custody after divorce, contact with and legal position of biological parents, grandparents and siblings before or after divorce, early years childcare, alimony, the role of husbands and wives.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #174 - April 17, 2012, 12:37 AM

Anti-gay marriage people don't have a problem with homosexuality, just the fact that it's "gay". Marriages are supposed to be miserable.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #175 - April 17, 2012, 12:38 AM

Nope. All of those issues are raised already, with heterosexual marriage. The only issue raised with gay marriage is the sex of the people getting married. Everything else on your list is nothing new.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #176 - April 17, 2012, 01:22 AM

Yes there are the same inherent issues that are associated with straight marriage, just my opinion that not having 'natural parents' on the whole/generally speaking would be a few more degrees problematic for the child.

On a different note if you break the tradition of marriage (one man -one woman etc)then as some could have argued on this thread have no logical argument against incest marriage. One could marry their mother, or sister. Where is the argument against mulitiple wives, as long as they were consensual? I am sure someone would want to marry a dog!

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #177 - April 17, 2012, 06:09 AM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on April 17, 2012, 01:22 AM
Yes there are the same inherent issues that are associated with straight marriage, just my opinion that not having 'natural parents' on the whole/generally speaking would be a few more degrees problematic for the child.

You can't just couch factual statements as "your opinion" and get away with it. Either show your evidence or rationale for these statements, or stfu with your bigotry.

Quote from: devilsadvokat on April 17, 2012, 01:22 AM
On a different note if you break the tradition of marriage (one man -one woman etc)then as some could have argued on this thread have no logical argument against incest marriage. One could marry their mother, or sister. Where is the argument against mulitiple wives, as long as they were consensual? I am sure someone would want to marry a dog!

Are you really this retarded, or are you just playing for the cameras? Either way I remember now why I had you on ignore.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #178 - April 17, 2012, 07:31 AM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 16, 2012, 10:41 PM
Really? Geez. I was joking about those arguing for legalization being "pro-incest", but this argument is actually looking like it.

Haha, I just saw this

Anyway, if by "pro-incest" you mean supportive of incestuous couples' rights, then hell yeah I'm pro-incest! I believe there are healthy incestuous relationships and I don't think the whole thing should be stigmatized.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #179 - April 17, 2012, 12:23 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 11:15 PM
So you do agree that there's an age at which it would be absurd to outlaw incest?

I think it's best to have a general law against incest, but there are exceptional cases like when adult reunited siblings embark on a romantic relationship should be pardoned. Grooming obviously didn't take place.

Quote
Personal question, but, have you ever been sexually abused by a member of your family? It's much, much harder to come to terms with and talk to somebody about, largely because it's so stigmatized.

No. I thought that the stigma was against the perpetrator and not the victim? I don't personally know anyone who has stigma against victims of paedophilia.

Quote
And I don't think so -- if it was normalized, kids could be told what is and is not acceptable behavior on the part of their siblings or parents, and they could talk about what their parents do to them to others more comfortably and the grooming, if present, would be detected much more easily.

Thanks, I'll have to think on that.

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