Anything goes between Consenting Adults?

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #120 - April 15, 2012, 06:50 PM

Quote from: asbdsp on April 15, 2012, 06:39 PM
I mean all one has to do is look at the popularity of incest in hentai

I wouldn't be drawing any general conclusions on humanity from observation of Japanese media.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK4cg6bSVFU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnaLRbbc-54

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #121 - April 15, 2012, 06:56 PM

I second the opinion that what people do behind closed doors is their business and as long as they use some sort of birth-control they're not hurting anyone. Yeah it's against everything we've been taught and personally the very thought of it turns my stomach but if it makes them happy, then who are we to judge anyone? I think it would probably have some sort of psychological impact on the individuals and an all-round corrosive effect on family dynamics though. As for society's reaction ... well interracial/gay couples tend to get bad press too, although this is much more likely to be looked down upon.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #122 - April 15, 2012, 07:00 PM

Interracial gay incest

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #123 - April 15, 2012, 07:04 PM

Harakaat I don't know why you were gunning for solara so much - there's a difference between acceptance and advocation. Solara accepts incest (in certain cases) but doesn't advocate it.

There are many things that I accept, but don't advocate.

For instance there is a genre of porn that's basically rape, and it's a popular genre of porn (but the performer doesn't verbally protest what's happening). Recently I came to the the conclusion that it's fucked up even if it's a simulation, but I still tolerate it because it's a simulation between 2 consenting adults that legally I don't think people should object to. So I accept it, but I don't advocate it.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #124 - April 15, 2012, 07:05 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 15, 2012, 07:00 PM
Interracial gay incest

ooh a triple threat. Not really possible though is it? Can you even have siblings from different races

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #125 - April 15, 2012, 07:06 PM

Half siblings could be from different races
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #126 - April 15, 2012, 07:07 PM

Quote from: Rendezvous on April 15, 2012, 06:56 PM
I second the opinion that what people do behind closed doors is their business and as long as they use some sort of birth-control they're not hurting anyone. Yeah it's against everything we've been taught and personally the very thought of it turns my stomach but if it makes them happy, then who are we to judge anyone? I think it would probably have some sort of psychological impact on the individuals and an all-round corrosive effect on family dynamics though.

I share your perspective Rendevous - and you articulated it more concisely, and better than I could.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #127 - April 15, 2012, 07:11 PM

Thought I'd add that many siblings 'experiment' with each other as young kids and people don't really think much of it. Oh and Angelina Jolie french kissed her brother

Quote from: Aurora on April 15, 2012, 07:06 PM
Half siblings could be from different races

They'd still have a bit of whatever race the mutual parent is though but yeah I get what you mean.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #128 - April 15, 2012, 07:17 PM

...

"The more powerful and original a mind, the more it will incline toward the religion of solitude."

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #129 - April 15, 2012, 07:20 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 15, 2012, 06:50 PM
I wouldn't be drawing any general conclusions on humanity from observation of Japanese media.

That's why I mentioned pornography as a whole too.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #130 - April 15, 2012, 07:24 PM

I'm wondering, the people who say this is okay, what age do you define as being and "adult" an why? Do you think this age could be adapted based on your culture/society/upbringing? << You might see where I'm going with this

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #131 - April 15, 2012, 07:32 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 15, 2012, 07:04 PM
Harakaat I don't know why you were gunning for solara so much - there's a difference between acceptance and advocation. Solara accepts incest (in certain cases) but doesn't advocate it.

There are many things that I accept, but don't advocate.

For instance there is a genre of porn that's basically rape, and it's a popular genre of porn (but the performer doesn't verbally protest what's happening). Recently I came to the the conclusion that it's fucked up even if it's a simulation, but I still tolerate it because it's a simulation between 2 consenting adults that legally I don't think people should object to. So I accept it, but I don't advocate it.

+1

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #132 - April 15, 2012, 07:36 PM

The reproduction issue on the other hand seems more complex to me. While the logical construction that harakaat and others made for its acceptability seems sound, if everyone having congenitally deformed incest babies became a norm, I know that I for one would have a problem with paying for their medical care through taxes.

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #133 - April 15, 2012, 07:51 PM

Quote from: chepea on April 15, 2012, 07:24 PM
I'm wondering, the people who say this is okay, what age do you define as being and "adult" an why? Do you think this age could be adapted based on your culture/society/upbringing? << You might see where I'm going with this

The legal age in which one is considered Adult in most countries tends to be 18. Yes it varies from society to society, culture to culture and even from individual to individual. For me, anyone 21 and over is now 'adult' in terms of mental maturity, considering some individuals mature slower than others. Over here, the 'adult' age varies between the sexes. Females in general are very sheltered and I had a cousin who didn't know what sex was until she was 16 - I know because I was there when my other cousin explained it to her on one of our previous holidays. She's now 21 and still considerably innocent. However, due to the difficulty of life conditions here, males mature much quicker. It isn't at all rare to find a 13 year old on whom the whole family is dependent for income - and you'd be shocked at how responsible and quick-witted they are.

Quote
The reproduction issue on the other hand seems more complex to me. While the logical construction that harakaat and others made for its acceptability seems sound, if everyone having congenitally deformed incest babies became a norm, I know that I for one would have a problem with paying for their medical care through taxes.

I don't know about the others but personally I think that if two siblings are going to fuck, hey ho, whatever floats their boat BUT IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THEY USE PROTECTION. Bringing children into this world intentionally or through irresponsible behavior, knowing full well that 9/10 times they are going to have a serious disability which will impair their ability to function in society is just cruel. That is where the line is drawn.

"The more powerful and original a mind, the more it will incline toward the religion of solitude."

"i used to steal my sisters barbies so i could take their clothes off and perv on them" - prince spinoza
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #134 - April 16, 2012, 09:11 AM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 15, 2012, 07:04 PM
Harakaat I don't know why you were gunning for solara so much - there's a difference between acceptance and advocation. Solara accepts incest (in certain cases) but doesn't advocate it.

There are many things that I accept, but don't advocate.

For instance there is a genre of porn that's basically rape, and it's a popular genre of porn (but the performer doesn't verbally protest what's happening). Recently I came to the the conclusion that it's fucked up even if it's a simulation, but I still tolerate it because it's a simulation between 2 consenting adults that legally I don't think people should object to. So I accept it, but I don't advocate it.

Try comparing a homosexual relationship to rape-simulation porn and you'll see why it angers me so much. I'm not saying she should "advocate" it, just that much in the same way she shouldn't be running around calling homosexual couples unnatural and disgusting (even if she personally feels that way), she shouldn't be doing that with regard to incestuous couples either. She later clarified that she wouldn't do that and would respect the couple, and I'm okay with that.

Quote from: asbdsp on April 15, 2012, 07:36 PM
The reproduction issue on the other hand seems more complex to me. While the logical construction that harakaat and others made for its acceptability seems sound, if everyone having congenitally deformed incest babies became a norm, I know that I for one would have a problem with paying for their medical care through taxes.

But it's not going to become a norm! Just like homosexuality is never going to become a norm either. It's just a minority who want to be able to have the same rights as everybody else.

Quote from: chepea on April 15, 2012, 07:24 PM
I'm wondering, the people who say this is okay, what age do you define as being and "adult" an why? Do you think this age could be adapted based on your culture/society/upbringing? << You might see where I'm going with this

There's a healthy debate about this issue, but one thing is (or at least should be) clear: having sex with a 9-year-old is never okay.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #135 - April 16, 2012, 09:22 AM

Quote from: Rendezvous on April 15, 2012, 07:51 PM
The legal age in which one is considered Adult in most countries tends to be 18. Yes it varies from society to society, culture to culture and even from individual to individual. For me, anyone 21 and over is now 'adult' in terms of mental maturity, considering some individuals mature slower than others. Over here, the 'adult' age varies between the sexes. Females in general are very sheltered and I had a cousin who didn't know what sex was until she was 16 - I know because I was there when my other cousin explained it to her on one of our previous holidays. She's now 21 and still considerably innocent. However, due to the difficulty of life conditions here, males mature much quicker. It isn't at all rare to find a 13 year old on whom the whole family is dependent for income - and you'd be shocked at how responsible and quick-witted they are.

I don't know about the others but personally I think that if two siblings are going to fuck, hey ho, whatever floats their boat BUT IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THEY USE PROTECTION. Bringing children into this world intentionally or through irresponsible behavior, knowing full well that 9/10 times they are going to have a serious disability which will impair their ability to function in society is just cruel. That is where the line is drawn.

More like 2-4 times out of ten.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #136 - April 16, 2012, 11:44 AM

Quote from: asbdsp on April 15, 2012, 07:20 PM
That's why I mentioned pornography as a whole too.

1. Don't be rolling your eyes at me boy. I got a good mind to smack the tar outta you.

2. I don't know what Japanese interracial gay incest porn websites you been goin to, but I ain't seein it-- and I watch a LOT of porn.

3. I repeat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK4cg6bSVFU

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #137 - April 16, 2012, 08:13 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on April 13, 2012, 08:22 AM
That's because that 16 page debate taught me, changed me, and made me realise that I was wrong, and reacting only from an emotional stand point that was easily argued away.

This isn't arguing against your conclusion. But I find it increasingly bizzare when people disparage emotional/psychological arguments in regards to ethics - because we are essentially talking about value-judgments.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #138 - April 16, 2012, 08:20 PM

^ Some value-judgments should override others. We decided that we should operate based on the principle of the golden rule -- that's a value-judgment, but when a situation comes along in which we're compelled by a visceral sense of disgust to violate the golden rule, then that needs to be disparaged because it shouldn't override the more important value-judgment that we base all our ethics on.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #139 - April 16, 2012, 08:47 PM

For the record I also believe in a hierarchy of values. However that wasn't my point - and it wasn't directed at this conversation - it was that people seem to have a habit of only wanting 'rational' arguments in discussions on morality. It's inherently nonsensicial IMO.

My post was based on the many debates I've had on morality recently.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #140 - April 16, 2012, 08:48 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 08:20 PM
^ Some value-judgments should override others.

Why do you believe that?

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #141 - April 16, 2012, 09:05 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 08:48 PM
Why do you believe that?

If you have two contradictory value-judgments, then one clearly has to override another. I argue that the golden rule should override personal disgust because the latter is subjective and, well, personal.

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 08:47 PM
For the record I also believe in a hierarchy of values. However that wasn't my point - and it wasn't directed at this conversation - it was that people seem to have a habit of only wanting 'rational' arguments in discussions on morality. It's inherently nonsensicial IMO.

My post was based on the many debates I've had on morality recently.

The way I see it, the premises (axioms, if you will) that you start out with are pretty emotional and not based on rationalism, but how you derive pragmatic ethical precepts based on those is a logical process, and like with any logical process, emotional arguments are inadmissible. Either your conclusions are in harmony with your premises or they aren't. But I do understand what you're talking about, I think.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #142 - April 16, 2012, 09:21 PM

Regarding whether I think incest should be legalized... I'd personally be concerned that legalizing incest would open the floodgates for grooming and abuse. I think it's something like 1/5 to 1/4 of sexual abuse victims suffered at the hands of their own family.

But I think there are exceptions, like if the relatives were reunited as adults.

I'm also intuitively inclined to beleive that accepting or advocating the destruction of the parent-child boundary will have serious negative consequences psychologically and socially.

The dude Zaephon said in better;

Quote
But of course, the most important argument against incest is the prevalence of domestic abuse in incestuous relationships. Seldom do incestous relationships occur without abuse, violence, and rape. Children are naturally vulnerable against parents and older siblings, and the negation of the sex-free zone inside the nuclear family would expose them to direct or indirect sexual manipulation. Sex between siblings or siblings and parents would tear down the psychological walls which allow the children to grow up in a healthy environment.

I have a hard time believing that some kind of unconscious or conscious grooming hasn't taken place in regards to parent child incest. Like a lonely single parent mother, unconsiously treating her child as her surrogate partner ie. using him to affirm her femininity, and using him a primary source of emotional support. (Alexander Lowen's book; fear of life, explores this in-depth if anyone is interested).

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #143 - April 16, 2012, 09:28 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 09:05 PM
If you have two contradictory value-judgments, then one clearly has to override another. I argue that the golden rule should override personal disgust because the latter is subjective and, well, personal.

Thanks for explaning why you hold that conclusion.

Quote
The way I see it, the premises (axioms, if you will) that you start out with are pretty emotional and not based on rationalism, but how you derive pragmatic ethical precepts based on those is a logical process, and like with any logical process, emotional arguments are inadmissible. Either your conclusions are in harmony with your premises or they aren't. But I do understand what you're talking about, I think.

I agree - apart from the underlined part. From my experience people tend to negate emotional arguments, despite normally behind them are genuine concerns about the psychological and social consequences of an act.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #144 - April 16, 2012, 09:40 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 09:21 PM
Regarding whether I think incest should be legalized... I'd personally be concerned that legalizing incest would open the floodgates for grooming and abuse. I think it's something like 1/5 to 1/4 of sexual abuse victims suffered at the hands of their own family.

But I think there are exceptions, like if the relatives were reunited as adults.

I'm also intuitively inclined to beleive that accepting or advocating the destruction of the parent-child boundary will have serious negative consequences psychologically and socially.

The dude Zaephon said in better;

I have a hard time believing that some kind of unconscious or conscious grooming hasn't taken place in regards to parent child incest. Like a lonely single parent mother, unconsiously treating her child as her surrogate partner ie. using him to affirm her femininity, and using him a primary source of emotional support. (Alexander Lowen's book; fear of life, explores this in-depth if anyone is interested).

Which is why incest should only be legalized for adults.

"From my experience people tend to negate emotional arguments, despite normally behind them are genuine concerns about the psychological and social consequences of an act."

If there are genuine concerns about the actual consequences of an act, the argument ceases to be purely emotional. I'm talking about things like "Gays? Eww. Therefore, gayness should be outlawed." (And I've heard variations of that countless times )

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #145 - April 16, 2012, 09:41 PM

Interesting videos here from an anthropologist on incest;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg39H_ZqTZs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5cNaF9b64

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #146 - April 16, 2012, 09:41 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 16, 2012, 09:11 AM
But it's not going to become a norm! Just like homosexuality is never going to become a norm either. It's just a minority who want to be able to have the same rights as everybody else.

What leads you to believe this? For all we know the closeted gay population may be greater than the heterosexual population. I don't have any numbers on me, but the point remains that in an environment where intense social stigma surrounds certain sexual proclivities, you'll never be able to get an accurate gauge of how commonly that proclivity might naturally occur.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #147 - April 16, 2012, 09:43 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 08:47 PM
For the record I also believe in a hierarchy of values. However that wasn't my point - and it wasn't directed at this conversation - it was that people seem to have a habit of only wanting 'rational' arguments in discussions on morality. It's inherently nonsensicial IMO.

My post was based on the many debates I've had on morality recently.

What other kinds of arguments could you possibly debate?

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #148 - April 16, 2012, 09:47 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on April 16, 2012, 09:21 PM
The dude Zaephon said in better;

You're all anti-Semites and have it out for me!

Indeed

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Re: Anything goes between Consenting Adults?
Reply #149 - April 16, 2012, 09:48 PM

Quote from: asbdsp on April 16, 2012, 09:41 PM
What leads you to believe this? For all we know the closeted gay population may be greater than the heterosexual population. I don't have any numbers on me, but the point remains that in an environment where intense social stigma surrounds certain sexual proclivities, you'll never be able to get an accurate gauge of how commonly that proclivity might naturally occur.

All the research I've seen seems to indicate otherwise. And some of that research even involved making people watch gay porn with sensors attached to their penises

Besides, consider societies in which homosexuality is widely accepted. They haven't been overrun by FABULOUS men with a keen sense of style. ~~Who happen to like sucking cock.~~

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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