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Theme Changer

 Topic: Chatroom has been decomissioned

 (Read 25464 times)
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  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #120 - April 03, 2012, 06:15 AM

     Cheesy

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #121 - April 03, 2012, 07:11 AM

    Not just him-- amina, clubs, and a lot of other people who rarely use the forum but come on chat. Not a thought was given to them. No warning, no time for people to set up an alternative, transfer ownership, simply remove the link from CEMB or otherwise come up with a compromise/alternative. Just a big "I'm/we're done with it, fuck you" Arrogant bullshit.

    The decision was not to allow any prospect of change of ownership, for the very simple reason that the place was considered a liability and there did not seem to be any prospect of that changing. It was already associated with this forum and the CEMB, so a clean execution was in the interest of both the latter, rather than have it still hanging around our necks like a dead albatross. If it had never been associated with the CEMB or this forum, those factors would not have needed to be considered.


    Quote
    In a few hours, a Palestinian-American teenage ex-muslim girl will likely be coming on to chat to talk with Solara and rora (chat's teenage girl mafia), and won't know what the fuck is up-- hopefully she has their contact info or comes here and sees this announcement thread.

    She will, since the old chat's url has been set to redirect to this topic for a while. That was done when the chat was closed down, since Thinkfree knew some people would need some re-orientation.


    Quote
    That's just one example-- we have ex-muslims and questioning muslims show up at chat that never came on the forum. But hey, whatever, the owner of the forum made a decision by administrative fiat in private consultation with the forum staff which was imposed on all chat users without warning-- guess they'll just have to suck it the fuck up, eh?

    What actually happened is that the forum staff, as a group, were fed up with the problems emanating from chat and were discussing it among themselves. The consensus was that it would be great if we could kill it. Thinkfree, who has access to the staff boards as chat liason and general server admin, then chimed in and said he'd been wanting to kill it for a while, and thought it was the best thing to do. You know what happened next.

    Do note that staff decisions are not a matter of "Os has spoken". I have no idea where people get that notion. The staff work together as a group of equals and I frequently defer to someone else's opinion if I think they have a good point.

    There is also no difference in actual status between moderators and admins. The only difference is that moderators only have to worry about the boards, while admins have to keep an eye on some of the back end stuff as well. IOW, if Cheetah thinks I'm being stupid she'll say so.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #122 - April 03, 2012, 07:39 AM

    the forum is, and always has been, unapologetically run like a dictatorship -- what else is new?
    have people just noticed this?

    Absolutely, and quite deliberately. The intent is to make it as benign as possible, since in general the staff are somewhat benign people, but we are doing this in our free time and we do have some concern for our own sanity.

    We have seen forums that attempt to run themselves in a completely democratic and egalitarian manner, and they always turn into forums about how to run a forum. They also include endless wrangling abut precise definitions of everything, and how oh no I didn't cross any lines because my definition of said lines is different to yours and I'm right so there.

    Bottom line is that if you think it's a good idea to have a forum, and if you think it needs staff, and if you think the staff should be able to preserve their sanity, then some degree of dictatorship is necessary. We usually cut people a lot of slack when they aren't perfect, while expecting people to also cut us some slack when they think we aren't perfect. It's called a"workable compromise".

     
    Quote
    ideals have no place on a forum, other than abstract discussion divorced from actual practice.

    We think we are as idealistic as we can be, given the above truths.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #123 - April 03, 2012, 07:41 AM

    FWIW, I think the staff here are fantastic. yes

    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #124 - April 03, 2012, 07:45 AM

    Sorry bit how does you quoting Os change what i said?

    Do it 7 days = 7 days of pages and pages of complaining

    do it now = who knows how many days of whining.

    ergo still whining.

    Do it 7 days - You get whining, but people have the chance to get used to the fact that things will change. They can prepare for the change. Some people may carry on whining but fuck them, that's their problem.

    do it now - you still get whining but people are also hit with a change that they were unprepared for. They are more upset due to it being a shock and there are feelings of betrayal due to the lack of empathy. These feelings are harder to move on from and linger for much longer. The drama wont be over for a while.


    I understand that a chat is difficult to maintain, but even 3 days warning would've been better. The sudden cut just feels like a poor decision and very unempathetic towards your users, and that is where it hurts them the most. The unapologetic posts in this thread towards hurt users just emphasizes that fact. Prince/Zizo starting another chat doesn't change that.

  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #125 - April 03, 2012, 07:48 AM


     We think we are as idealistic as we can be, given the above truths.


    I'm sure many a dictator has said the same thing  Cheesy

    Not that I am against it -- semi-benevolent dictatorships are the best one can hope for, innit??

    Keep in mind though that if this place is "wearing on your sanity," I'm sure that many would step in to relieve you guys of your duties...
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #126 - April 03, 2012, 08:07 AM

    Well yeah. Like I said, workable compromise.

    And no, it's not wearing on our sanity, because we make sure it's run in a way that does not. This is not an exercise in abstract thought. We are being practical here. We knew when we started the place that if we wanted to get and retain good staff, we had to consider their sanity as well as everybody else's egos. This is the internet. Every bugger has to be right.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #127 - April 03, 2012, 08:12 AM

    I don't even care about the chatroom, I just find this whole situation infinitely hilarious, haha
    This shit is better than soaps.
    (Or those fantasy-type soaps they call "Game of Thrones")
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #128 - April 03, 2012, 08:14 AM

    So what do you say unkie oz? Do you think countries would be better run as dictatorships??
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #129 - April 03, 2012, 08:21 AM

    I thought they were anyway.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #130 - April 03, 2012, 08:22 AM

    Without even the pretense of democracy.
    I'm sure there is already a thread started on this, can anyone point me to it?
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #131 - April 03, 2012, 09:45 AM

    Use the search facility.

    And just for the record peeps, we were going to give 24 hours notice, but decided it would be pointless because the 24 hours before was April Fool's Day, so you wouldn't have believed us anyway. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #132 - April 03, 2012, 10:21 AM

    Use the search facility.

    And just for the record peeps, we were going to give 24 hours notice, but decided it would be pointless because the 24 hours before was April Fool's Day, so you wouldn't have believed us anyway. 


    That's a big assumption...You think we wouldn't have believed you yet people believed Aphro on the forums when she talked about chat on the April fools, and she's less a reliable source than you....If you put it across in a serious manner there was no reason for us to doubt you. I think you underestimated us.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #133 - April 03, 2012, 10:31 AM

    Stardust, we discussed all these things at length before we did anything.  Some people may well have taken us seriously, others may not have and that would have just made it worse.  Its not like we woke up one day and decided to piss you all off.  I don't think there's any way we could have closed chat without pissing people off though.  Best to just get it over with, like pulling off a plaster.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #134 - April 03, 2012, 10:58 AM

    Well in that case, if there wasn't anyway to go about it without pissing people off the best way would've to be decent about it and informed us before hand.

    I'll tell you what chat is really like these days: Me, rora and solara are the regular female members, Hass, Zooby, Zizo, clubs, asbie and qman (sprout and Godot lately) are regular male members.

    These people (ok I can't account for qman  Cheesy ) wouldn't make any new person feel uncomfortable.

    What happened with Aphro was that bd started coming on occasional lately, and you know what bd is like (no offense bd but you can get a bit...), add to that 6-7 other male members there at that time and only aphro came into chat at some point and being the active female member on chat, and the mods were absent. Yes things got out of hand it seems by her thread but those are very rare occurrences.  

    The way it comes across is that you handled...It comes across as disrespectful to chat users.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #135 - April 03, 2012, 11:00 AM

    Anyway
    Stardust has beat the dead horse enough

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #136 - April 03, 2012, 11:06 AM

    I know that's the way its coming across, at least to some of you.  Its really not what happened though, there was plenty of discussion about how to go about closing chat with the minimum of pissed offedness caused.  There wasn't a painless way to do it, so we just chose the least worst option - get it over with quick.  Maybe we should have done it differently, but hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?  It had nothing to do with not giving a fuck about people, if anything maybe we over analysed it.

    There is another chat up and running for anybody who wants to use it, Godot has a link in his sig and I think Solara does too.  

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #137 - April 03, 2012, 11:23 AM

    We have seen forums that attempt to run themselves in a completely democratic and egalitarian manner, and they always turn into forums about how to run a forum. They also include endless wrangling abut precise definitions of everything, and how oh no I didn't cross any lines because my definition of said lines is different to yours and I'm right so there.

    Bottom line is that if you think it's a good idea to have a forum, and if you think it needs staff, and if you think the staff should be able to preserve their sanity, then some degree of dictatorship is necessary. We usually cut people a lot of slack when they aren't perfect, while expecting people to also cut us some slack when they think we aren't perfect. It's called a"workable compromise".

     We think we are as idealistic as we can be, given the above truths.

    And there's nothing wrong with that. As leaders, this is expected of you. However, there are different ways of running a dictatorship and that comes down to how you treat the members of your community. If you insist on making abrupt changes without any prior warning, then you disrupt the community and upset its members.

    In order to keep a happy community, you need to ensure that the members feel safe and secure. Ensure that there are no unwarranted surprises or sudden changes that makes them feel unsafe. In the cases where there is a need for it, they need to be informed beforehand and you have to take any steps necessary to lessen the blow. Not informing them makes them feel that you don't view them as important community members, and this removes the 'safe and secure' feeling that is essential to keeping a good, happy community.

    That chat was a part of this forum. When it was first added it was talked about beforehand. Removing this feature suddenly is unexpected and inconsistent behaviour. It is scary for your users.

    We're not asking you to be democratic. Only to think about the community that you need to uphold. You have a responsibility towards them.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #138 - April 03, 2012, 11:32 AM

    You make a fair point Peru.  You are right, I do believe some warning would have been nice.  Not a discussion, just a notice that it was happening on such and such date.  To prepare everyone.

    I guess this is like the time I waxed a friend for her. 

    After she finished screaming she told me I could have prepared her.  I didn't even count, or offer a number, I just ripped it off fast. 

    I thought the fast option was the better one.

    Turns out she screamed less when I actually prepared her.

    So yea, fair point.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #139 - April 03, 2012, 11:33 AM

    LOL, I forgot prince again, sorry!

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #140 - April 03, 2012, 11:38 AM

    You make a fair point Peru.  You are right, I do believe some warning would have been nice.  Not a discussion, just a notice that it was happening on such and such date.  To prepare everyone.

    I guess this is like the time I waxed a friend for her. 

    After she finished screaming she told me I could have prepared her.  I didn't even count, or offer a number, I just ripped it off fast. 

    I thought the fast option was the better one.

    Turns out she screamed less when I actually prepared her.

    So yea, fair point.



     Cheesy

    I'm glad you see my point at least Afro
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #141 - April 03, 2012, 11:41 AM

    I'm the opposite to your friend, I'd prefer no warning.  It seemed especially cruel to me to give a warning and risk some people thinking that the admin were having a little April Fool joke with them, only to log on the next day and find chat really gone.  You make a good point though, Peruvian.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #142 - April 03, 2012, 11:42 AM



    OK

    (a) You all have a chat room to play with

    (b) Anyone not up to speed will be re-directed here and be able to join you in your new chat room

    (c) Its clear that the offence this has caused may not be assuaged by anything we say

    (d) Therefore we should all move on

    (e) If you feel aggrieved, oppressed, diminished, reduced, humiliated, by this, you have no need to - everyone that works as a mod gives up their most precious resource - time - and sometimes expense, sacrifices the opportunity cost to help organise and run this place not because of a power trip (we have our private S & M games behind the scenes to satisfy that desire) but because we feel committed to there being a space in the world for people of like mind and experience to congregate away from the multiple hostility those who leave or dissent from Islam face - and we do it because we care for people, and we care for you and your rejections, frustrations, and fears - and when I say 'you' I don't just mean you specifically - I mean all the people who ever gain anything from the existence of this forum, in the past, present and future.

    (f) I'm hungry

    (g) Shall we draw a line under this now, or at least sublimate any resentments / tensions to be unleashed at a future date in conversations with sub-text relating to suspicions, indignations pertaining to any drama beneath the surface arising as and when they do naturally?

    (h) It ain't easy being a pimp

    (i) Enjoy your chat room. Shall we move on now?

    (j) If we can't move on, can I just say that all your worst ideas about our motivations and spitefulness are correct. Now can we move on?

    (k) Can't think of anything else, thinking of going all the way to 'z', quite impressed that I got all the way to 'k'......

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #143 - April 03, 2012, 11:45 AM

    I'm the opposite to your friend, I'd prefer no warning.  It seemed especially cruel to me to give a warning and risk some people thinking that the admin were having a little April Fool joke with them, only to log on the next day and find chat really gone.  You make a good point though, Peruvian.


    Oh, I would prefer the fast rip too, the whole golden rule. I did to her what I would have done to me.  Grin

    And yea, it would have been seen as an April fools day joke considering the day it was decided, an EPIC one from the staff, but no doubt no one would have believed us.

    Part of me still believed the aphrodite was pranking us with her complaint because of the day in question.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #144 - April 03, 2012, 11:48 AM

    Me too.  I'm generally skeptical of everything on April 1st, especially on the internet.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #145 - April 03, 2012, 11:54 AM


    (e) If you feel aggrieved, oppressed, diminished, reduced, humiliated, by this, you have no need to - everyone that works as a mod gives up their most precious resource - time - and sometimes expense, sacrifices the opportunity cost to help organise and run this place not because of a power trip (we have our private S & M games behind the scenes to satisfy that desire) but because we feel committed to there being a space in the world for people of like mind and experience to congregate away from the multiple hostility those who leave or dissent from Islam face - and we do it because we care for people, and we care for you and your rejections, frustrations, and fears - and when I say 'you' I don't just mean you specifically - I mean all the people who ever gain anything from the existence of this forum, in the past, present and future.




    Yep.

    The forum wasn't started so that I could soothe my need for some power trip, it was started because I care, more staff joined because they care.  Care about making a place for all of you and keeping it going because of what we go through IRL.

    We come back because we care.

    We could have given a little warning, and from now in will try to make sure we inform you of any major changes before they happen to prepare you, as you say.  But stop acting like we are here to squish your rights, or here for the fun of being a dictator and out to piss you off, or steal your rights, or refuse to share property communally.  We come here because we care and we do it for free.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #146 - April 03, 2012, 11:54 AM

    There's not much point in discussing how it could've been done in any case. The deed is done. What's important is what gets taken from this experience and how things get approached in the future.

    Just please don't undermine those who are hurt, they have a right to be upset.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #147 - April 03, 2012, 11:57 AM

    They do, Peruvian.  In future, we won't make any major changes like that without giving prior notice.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #148 - April 03, 2012, 12:16 PM

    Whatever.

    fuck you
  • Re: Chatroom has been decomissioned
     Reply #149 - April 03, 2012, 12:19 PM

    Good riddance to the chat.
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