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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians

 (Read 15407 times)
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  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #150 - March 23, 2012, 04:11 PM

    So the proposed efficacy of prayer is unfalsifiable is basically what you're saying?

    And the proposed positive benefits of prayer are indistinguishable from the placebo effect, and the positive benefits of secular meditation practices.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110121144007.htm

  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #151 - March 23, 2012, 04:42 PM

    So the proposed efficacy of prayer is unfalsifiable is basically what you're saying?

    And the proposed positive benefits of prayer are indistinguishable from the placebo effect, and the positive benefits of secular meditation practices.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110121144007.htm




    No, I don't think that is what I just said. I moved the Yo Lynna! thread up. Let's  move there. But my employer just called  and I've got to go for awhile.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #152 - March 23, 2012, 05:18 PM

    Surely it resounds to God's glory to heal amputees? 

    Actually, is there anything similar in Islam?


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #153 - March 23, 2012, 10:57 PM

    Surely it resounds to God's glory to heal amputees? 

    Actually, is there anything similar in Islam?




    Not at this time according to the Bible because this is the period of time for Satan to prove his claim that God doesn't  have right to have sovereignty over his creation. So right now God is not correcting those  type things by means of miracles. For God to step in and fix the mess before the appointed time not be a benefit to the big picture.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #154 - March 24, 2012, 12:20 AM

    Thank you for reminding me why I said goodbye!

    Not quite sure how Satan can be blamed for the giraffe's laryngeal nerve or the ichneumon wasp..

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #155 - March 25, 2012, 05:40 AM

    Thank you for reminding me why I said goodbye!

    Not quite sure how Satan can be blamed for the giraffe's laryngeal nerve or the ichneumon wasp..


    Typical  answer.
    So everything has to fit your one "cookie cutter". How pray tell does a giraffe anatomy come into this conversation? Sure just throw in some studid side points that have nothing to do with  the subject at hand. Either stay with the conversation or not but done try to put the blame elsewhere if you can't follow.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #156 - March 26, 2012, 08:44 AM

    Quote
    This video, including comments by Richard Dawkins, documents a necropsy (an autopsy on an animal other than a human) carried out in a classroom on a giraffe. In this video, we follow the pathway of the recurrent (inferior) laryngeal nerve, an important nerve that is a branch of the Vagus nerve (tenth cranial nerve). The recurrent (inferior) laryngeal nerve, which branches off the Vagus nerve at the base of the brain, travels down the neck, around the arteries of the heart and travels back up the neck to ennervate the larynx, or voice box, thereby providing motor function. The purpose of doing this exercise is to show that there is no so-called "intelligent designer" because the pathway of this nerve is completely illogical -- unless, of course, you accept that evolution is the reason for this nerve's convoluted pathway through the body.


    A twenty five foot long nerve between the brain and the voicebox via the heart is a very impressive example of something - goodiddit, satandiddit, or ?

    http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2010/06/the_laryngeal_nerve_of_the_gir.php

    It is another directly relevant point about why god hates amputees!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #157 - March 26, 2012, 06:03 PM

    A twenty five foot long nerve between the brain and the voicebox via the heart is a very impressive example of something - goodiddit, satandiddit, or ?

    http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2010/06/the_laryngeal_nerve_of_the_gir.php

    It is another directly relevant point about why god hates amputees!


    The only thing the nerve pathway  knowledge  proves is that humans do not have complete understanding of why the nerve pathway  is like that. There ae any number of things that science is learning about. Deep ocean vent were once thought to be to hostile to have life near them. Now life is know to be abundant near them. Scientific thought is very useful and needed. However it tends to change. So I'll wait on developments on the nerve pathway information from those with seeking minds. Just  like I daily do with ever expanding knowledge about nerve pathways  in the brain.

    Still can't see the connection  to hating amputees?

    Actually what are you trying to talk about?

     If you don't like what I say you don't need to talk to me. If you want a different opinion I can give you that. If you what to say something about that opinion go for it. If you want to call names I'm really not interested in that kind of immature exchange.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #158 - March 26, 2012, 06:47 PM

    Quote
    The only thing the nerve pathway  knowledge  proves is that humans do not have complete understanding of why the nerve pathway  is like that.


    Why do you make that claim? Because the laryngeal nerve pathway in a giraffee gives more credence to evolution by means of natural selection rather than intentionality?

    We'll never be omniscient regarding the universe, but we can form provisional conclusions based on evidence (that's all we can do). And the most rational conclusion according to scientific consensus is evolution by means of natural selection.

    I've known creationists who state that they have researched the theory of evolution and are still creationists, so I'm curious if you've researched the evidence for yourself?
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #159 - March 27, 2012, 10:41 AM

    Quote
    The only thing the nerve pathway  knowledge  proves is that humans do not have complete understanding of why the nerve pathway  is like that.


    Thou shalt not bear false witness.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #160 - March 27, 2012, 02:33 PM

    Thou shalt not bear false witness.


    Gee wonderful. I suppose because you said it that makes it so. So much for intelligent conversation.  Try again when you can organize you thoughts.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #161 - March 27, 2012, 09:01 PM

    Why do you make that claim? Because the laryngeal nerve pathway in a giraffee gives more credence to evolution by means of natural selection rather than intentionality?

    We'll never be omniscient regarding the universe, but we can form provisional conclusions based on evidence (that's all we can do). And the most rational conclusion according to scientific consensus is evolution by means of natural selection.

    I've known creationists who state that they have researched the theory of evolution and are still creationists, so I'm curious if you've researched the evidence for yourself?



    No, honestly I don't see how it gives more credence to natural seletion. Giraffes don't know how their laryngeal pathway is laid out so how could they select one another by means of it. Why shouldn't a laryngeal pathway go near the heart? If there is no reason for it to be there would not have natural selection bred it out of existance?

    It's been awhile since we've talked, so I also don't recall right off your science education. I believe it is in technology like computers and stuff. I am a nurse it took a bit of life sceince to get to this point and an on going life sceince education to keep up the pace. I have seen sceince change it's thought about things it was way to sure about. There are many outstanding sceince developements. However there are many that are like a two edged sword because of the short sightedness of humans.

    You wonder if I have restricted the evidence for myself. We all must at some level restrict the evidence because there is no end to evidence. I am sure you yourself have restricted the evidence you are willing to see. That is okay. If however we would like to influence where some one else puts up thier restriction we need to be willing to have a converstion about the subject that has some kind of point. I can't think of a situation where the length of the laryneal nerve pathway of a giraffe is going to matter one way or the other to me. However if you can point out way it might be important I'm willing to give it some thought.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #162 - March 27, 2012, 10:18 PM

    Quote
    No, honestly I don't see how it gives more credence to natural seletion. Giraffes don't know how their laryngeal pathway is laid out so how could they select one another by means of it.


    Natural selection is an environmental pressure, not the intention of the organism. And because the pathway of the nerve doesn't influence there appearence, it wouldn't have any reason to play a role in sexual selection.

    Quote
    Why shouldn't a laryngeal pathway go near the heart?


    If you look at the nerve's pathway you'll see how uneconomical it is, and why it gives credence to it's formation being natural process rather than directed process.

    Quote
    If there is no reason for it to be there would not have natural selection bred it out of existance?


    Short answer; Because the accumulation of variations is such a gradual process, the 'detour' developed in incremental stages - but it obviously wasn't an impediment to survival. From a 'design' perspective ie. creationsim, it's uneconomical - but it makes sense if it developed via natural selection.

    From personal experience, in order to understand how natural selection can produce complexity it's best to read a systematic presentation of the theory of evolution. I recommend; the greatest show on earth by Richard Dawkins.

    Quote
    I have seen sceince change it's thought about things it was way to sure about. There are many outstanding sceince developements. However there are many that are like a two edged sword because of the short sightedness of humans

    .

    Here's the best answer to that;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgzbUuLMuBM

    I'm simply asking you to look at the evidence for the theory of evolution, alongside the evidence for christian creationism, and then form a conclusion regarding which one you think is most likely.   

    Quote
    I can't think of a situation where the length of the laryneal nerve pathway of a giraffe is going to matter one way or the other to me. However if you can point out way it might be important I'm willing to give it some thought.


    The bigger picture is; design vs natural processes.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #163 - March 30, 2012, 04:05 AM

    I've started  to reply to you several times and it just wasn't seeming right. I've watched  the video severa times and the point was escaping me. I perhaps have some ideas now.

    I have no idea who this Sean is that is mentioned in the video. But into strictest sense pf the word I'm not a creatinsist. None of that 6 24 hour day stuff. Also I believe the video said something about Sean thinking  animals  became some sort of hybrids. Kind of weird  idea. I'm not real impressed  with videos  that take the most wide tangent and run with it.

    Anyhow the video does make some good points. One is that science makes the cconclusion fit the facts not makes  the facts fit the conclusion. This should indeed be the case however it is not always so. Just like saying it is economical for the laryngeal nerve pathways to loop down around the heart.  It my look that way but it doesn't  mean it is and it doesn't it wasn't  designed  that way. You yourself said it didn't effect several. So you tell  me what part does it play in natural selection? Also please think carefully about what you said about the gradualNess of this detour taking place. Well in th case of the girraffes  laryngeal nerve pathways the detour was so gradual  it never took  place. However in some other supposed evolutionary changes that gradually took place where is the evidence? In the fossil record? In living animals and plants? Well hummed...because there is a  theory of evolution that the changes where punctuated sudden changes. So which is right? What evidence is better?

    When I see a live human heart beating inside a body I know it didn't  happen  by accident. Believe  me I was not in that surgical  suite  because. I lacked knowledge of of how that heart functioned.

    So you think the bigger picture is design vs natural processes.

    Remember  me again what is your science education.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #164 - March 30, 2012, 10:49 AM

    I have no science education apart from mandatory state school. I don't see how that's relevant unless you've formally studied the theory of evolution?

    I'll ask you to listen to evolutionary biologists like Richard Dawkins talk about this issue, and then perhaps consider reading some of his books;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1a1Ek-HD0


  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #165 - March 30, 2012, 10:54 AM

    I remembered this clip from astrophysicist Neil Degrasse Tyson on intelliengent design vs natural processes;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEl9kVl6KPc
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #166 - March 30, 2012, 02:49 PM

    For muddy's sake can you reply to me in the thread; yo lynna
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #167 - March 30, 2012, 02:56 PM

    I have no science education apart from mandatory state school. I don't see how that's relevant unless you've formally studied the theory of evolution?

    I'll ask you to listen to evolutionary biologists like Richard Dawkins talk about this issue, and then perhaps consider reading some of his books;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1a1Ek-HD0





    Perhaps you've been missing missing the point when I say I'm a nurse. Maybe just check out what type  science  education is needed. I went to a math and science  high school as as my original interest was in being a veterinarian. I actually had two years  into that when my daughter was born and less then a year later....well
     anyhow it was an end to that dream. Anyhow not an end to th knowledge or ability to think.

    Speech is a very  complex operation that involves the diaphragm.  Does ts laryngeal nerve pathway engage the diaphragm or is this something  that they neglect  to mention. It is a very simplistic  video to be making a statement about such a complex  subject. Get the point. Interest in diaphragm investment is just one of multiple  questions that are not answered. That's just talking about the reason  for the nerve pathway let alone how a fish became a girraffes.

    As regarding the other guys video. Just  take a minute and think you could use his same argument against evolution. Why hasn't  the human eye evolved  to see a wider spectrum of light? Why haven't humans evolved to smell more dangerous chemical? Why haven't human embryos started developing differently since there are so many possible problems related to septal or cleft deviation when the cytoblast turns right side out.

    Science that answers questions is worthwhile.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #168 - March 30, 2012, 03:12 PM

    If you've already formally studied the theory of evolution (if that's what you're implying by citing your nurse studies) and don't believe it, then we'll have to agree to disagree because I'm unqualified to debate with you.

    We could have saved time if you simply would have stated that at the start.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #169 - March 30, 2012, 03:33 PM

    If you've already formally studied the theory of evolution (if that's what you're implying by citing your nurse studies) and don't believe it, then we'll have to agree to disagree because I'm unqualified to debate with you.

    We could have saved time if you simply would have stated that at the start.


    You only have conversations with people you are sure you will have the upper hand with?

    How sad. I only engaged  you because I thought you could give me a real work out something more then cut a.d paste. You are a thoughtful person with with some deep convictions.

    Who is closing thier mind to possibilities?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #170 - March 30, 2012, 03:41 PM

    I don't know why you're attempting to disparage my character.

    I've informally studied the theory of evolution, if someone else has informally studied the theory of evolution and doesn't beleive it then we are on equal footing - neither one of us has the 'upper hand'. We both have only studied informally.

    For me to debate with someone who's formally studied the theory of evolution when I've only studied pop science, is like a laymen trying to convince a physics graduate that the general theory of relativity is false. I couldn't begin to address the questions you have based on formal study - it would be arrogant and stupid of me to attempt to.

    If you've formally studied the theory of evolution then I will simply be regurgitating what you probably learned in your introductory classes - if you're unconvinced by formal study, then you won't be convinced by someone's arguments who's only studied pop science.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #171 - March 30, 2012, 04:03 PM

    Very good post, SD.

    Modesty can be as potent a weapon as bombast.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #172 - March 30, 2012, 05:36 PM

    http://www.icr.org/article/recurrent-laryngeal-nerve-not-evidence/

    This article from the Institute of Creation Research argues that the laryngeal nerve is not an example of poor design but is a developmental result.

    But this misses the point on several levels!  The argument is not about poor or good design, it is to illustrate evolution!

    And development of the individual from embryo to adult is also a result of evolution.

    I cannot work out how to explain what I understand to be a complete misunderstanding of what evolution is about.

    Deep time?  Clades?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #173 - March 30, 2012, 06:00 PM

    I don't know why you're attempting to disparage my character.

    I've informally studied the theory of evolution, if someone else has informally studied the theory of evolution and doesn't beleive it then we are on equal footing - neither one of us has the 'upper hand'. We both have only studied informally.

    For me to debate with someone who's formally studied the theory of evolution when I've only studied pop science, is like a laymen trying to convince a physics graduate that the general theory of relativity is false. I couldn't begin to address the questions you have based on formal study - it would be arrogant and stupid of me to attempt to.

    If you've formally studied the theory of evolution then I will simply be regurgitating what you probably learned in your introductory classes - if you're unconvinced by formal study, then you won't be convinced by someone's arguments who's only studied pop science.



    Sorry I didn't intended to disparaged your character. In fact I'm not sure how I did it I engaged you when I will seldom engage others about evolution because I know you to be thoughtful and reasonable. I've learned things from you on other topics.

    Please recall how many times you asked me if I considered the evidence.  I was never offended by that I always  assumed that you were just  making  conversation.  I never took offence that you perhaps thought I was uninformed in my choice to reject evolution as a scientific fact. I have written  a few college papers on the subject. It is nothing new to me to stand in the face of mainstream  thought.  It doesn't worry me.

    Life is an on going series of choices. We not only need the best information that we can get but we need to be able to think about that information.

    When we ask questions we need to be able to hear the answer. That answer may not and does not need to change our believes or creed. However it should change us by expanding our knowledge base.

    There  are some other topics  on Yo! Lynna that I like to get back to someday.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #174 - March 31, 2012, 10:42 AM

    Quote
    Sorry I didn't intended to disparaged your character.


    Sorry I misinterpreted what you wrote then.

    Quote
    In fact I'm not sure how I did it I engaged you when I will seldom engage others about evolution because I know you to be thoughtful and reasonable.


    You started off the post with this;

    Quote
    You only have conversations with people you are sure you will have the upper hand with?

    How sad.


    Can you blame me for intepreting that as an attempt to disparage my character?

    Quote
    Please recall how many times you asked me if I considered the evidence.


    The reason why I asked that is because IME the majority of creationists haven't read even a pop science book explaining the evidence for evolution. If you would have replied explicitly that you had formally studied the theory, then that would have ended it.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #175 - March 31, 2012, 08:31 PM

    Well, we  both had a new experience.
    I'd like to know as much about technology as you that I knew how to post  videos.

    Until good topic  we can agree on.

    PS I'll try to not assume as much in future.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #176 - April 02, 2012, 01:41 PM

    I think we need this collection too. My boss is Christian, and we are a group of a few hindus, few atheists and few christians by name only. I want a bunch of questions ready for next week..Tongue

    Anyways, a hindu girl nicely raised a good question.

    "After the world was created, Adam and Eve were the only two humans. And we are all their children. How come they all follow different religions".

    My boss's reply:

    "Lets go back to 6 ancestors back of yours, and traverse through their whole tree until now. How many people do you personally know?"

    Me:

    "I completely agree that it is not necessarily possible that they are all following same religion. But there is reason for it, and that is environmental factors and peer pressures. But if you go back to Adam and Eve's time, they were two people, one religion. Where did all the other religions come from?"
    ====
    The End, and topic changed.. Tongue


    Adam and Eve committed incest and their off spring divided into many religious sects, each committed incest as inbreeding is the fastest way to multiply population of different religious sects.

    Ibn Juferi
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #177 - April 02, 2012, 01:46 PM

    Adam and Eve committed incest and their off spring divided into many religious sects, each committed incest as inbreeding is the fastest way to multiply population of different religious sects.

    Ibn Juferi


    Hmm.. How are you doing ibn_j?  So you beleive in Adam- Eve story??  What did you convert in to Christianity??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #178 - April 03, 2012, 11:03 AM

    Adam and Eve committed incest and their off spring divided into many religious sects, each committed incest as inbreeding is the fastest way to multiply population of different religious sects.

    Ibn Juferi
    K


    Could someone explain Ibn Juferi quote to me. From my Biblical understanding of Adam and Eve's activities  they didn't  commit incest as they were married to each other and had off spring. It is not even my understanding that their child committed incest  as there was no laws defining incest until the law given  to Moses. My next concern or thought is how does it follow  that committing  incest  wo uld increase population of religious sects. Would not the quickest way to increase the population of a sect be mass forced conversation?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #179 - April 03, 2012, 11:33 AM

    Quote
    Incest

    noun . 1. sexual intercourse between closely related persons. 2. the crime of sexual intercourse, cohabitation, or marriage between persons within the degrees of ...


    Based on the first definition it's quite clear that Adam and Eve's offspring had to have committed incest.
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