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 Topic: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians

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  • Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     OP - October 02, 2011, 09:16 AM

    It's a good thing this thread is called "Akward Questions to Ask 'Moderate' Christians"
    Because if some one actually know the Bible the answers aren't that hard. However many here wont take the time to know the Biblical answer.

    Ask him if he believes in Hell.

    -Do you know anything about the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated hell in some versions of the Bible?
    -Do you know what the Bible says about the condition of the dead?
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi
    1) God, being all-powerful and all-knowing would create human beings he knew would sin against him...

     -Did God know for sure that his human creation would rebel?
    -Can you prove that idea is even from the Bible?
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi
    isn't that like having a kid you know will be a psychopath before you create him, so you can be justified in repeatedly beating him

    -Say what? Very poor illustration. It would no more be justifiable to beat a pycopath in the way you mention then iit would be justifiable to
    torture some one, any livng thing for eternity.
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi
    ...acts that would today be considered genocide at worst and heinous war crimes at best?

    -Nice emotional appeal. Which "acts" are you talking about might be genacide
    or war crime. Most civilized  peoples have a system of innocent until proven guilt. So I would think the proof is on you if you would like to prove God guilty of war crimes.

    It is one thing to ask questions because you want to know some thing it is quite another to ask to set some one up
    .

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #1 - October 02, 2011, 02:34 PM

    How do you know the Bible is true?


    Hi Hassan,
    There are several lines of evidence I could go down that are enough for myself.
    Do you want me to explain them to you?
    How interested are you in the answer?
    Is there a Bible topic your more interested in or concerned about?
    Just would like to know the answer to those questions so I can know how to present my answer. Frequently when I get questions like this the asker disappears without much (or any) conversation to appear later with same question and no greater insight. I know you have alot of other things you do an so do I. Most frequently my conversations here are slow. It takes me awhile to get infomation posted.
    until later, be safe
    Lynna

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #2 - October 02, 2011, 04:57 PM

    Hi Hassan,
    There are several lines of evidence I could go down that are enough for myself.
    Do you want me to explain them to you?
    How interested are you in the answer?
    Is there a Bible topic your more interested in or concerned about?
    Just would like to know the answer to those questions so I can know how to present my answer. Frequently when I get questions like this the asker disappears without much (or any) conversation to appear later with same question and no greater insight. I know you have alot of other things you do an so do I. Most frequently my conversations here are slow. It takes me awhile to get infomation posted.
    until later, be safe
    Lynna


    I am genuinely interested to hear what you consider as proof and of course I will give my opinion as to whether I find it convincing to me.

    But I don't have time or desire to read walls of text - or links, Lynna - so if I could humbly request you keep it brief Smiley

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #3 - October 03, 2011, 12:18 AM

    Well good. Being as I'm not on a computer and it taxes my cell phone to the limit to say much at one time, you haven't much to worry about. Least some day I go out of my way to get to computer and go crazy with cut and paste.

    We had conversation in the past on the topic of "hell".  So here is where I'll start even it being one of my least favorite subjects. I've learned a great deal from you as regard what Islam teaches on this subject, both what the Qu'ran an Hadith say. However as regards the Bible it does not teach that there is an eternal torment in a place of fire. Yes without doubt the majority of Chirstendom would misapply figurative language and parables to continue the lie for it's on gain. None the less there has nnot been success in hiding the true condition of the dead that is available in the Bible. In a video I think you made, at least it was direct link to your post, talked about words sheol and hades that are transliteratons of a Hebrew and a Greek word which each mean common grave of mankind. The Bible says the condition of the dead is to return to the dust to be conscious of nothing just like Adam was before he was made. So the point even though there are many people that would like to change what the Bible says so they can use it for their own gain it hasn't been done with success. I think this is evidence of Divine protection, that in over 1,600 years the corruptions of the text is not successful.

    It is not the case only with the subject of "hell" that this kind of arguement can be made. It also can be done with, 1)God is not a trinity 2)Human have freedom to make choices (or could call this one No predistentnation) 3)The Kingdom is a real government 4)Why humans die 5) Where Satan came from.

    Besides more topics that I can't think of right now and we're not going for massive volume.

    Also the Bible is historically correct on the things that can be proven.  Same as

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #4 - October 03, 2011, 12:48 AM

    -Do you know anything about the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated hell in some versions of the Bible?
    -Do you know what the Bible says about the condition of the dead?


    Yes, I know many Christians don't believe in Hell, but there are many more that do, including, possibly, muddy's boss, which is who this thread was about initially, not you.

    Quote
    -Did God know for sure that his human creation would rebel?


    He's motherfuckin God. The entire concept of a single, personal god means he is all-powerful and all-knowing.

    Quote
    -Can you prove that idea is even from the Bible?


    See above.

    Quote
    -Say what? Very poor illustration. It would no more be justifiable to beat a pycopath in the way you mention then iit would be justifiable to torture some one, any livng thing for eternity.-


    You're missing the point-- Christians who believe in Hell DO believe it's justifiable to torture someone for eternity.

    Quote
    Nice emotional appeal. Which "acts" are you talking about might be genacide or war crime.

     

    *Battle of Jericho-- God commanded Joshua directly in the battle. The result was the destruction of every living thing in the city other than Rahab's family (because they harbored Joshua's spies).

    *Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Everyone in the cities but Lot and his family killed by God. His wife turned into a pillar of salt simply for disobeying God's command not to look back, then Lot's daughters spent his remaining years keeping him drunk so they could rape him. Lovely story.

    *The Great Flood. Everyone on Earth but Noah and his peeps killed by God.

    *Plagues of Egypt. God collectively punishes the entire people of Egypt for Pharaoh's treatment of the Jews, most disgustingly by killing the first born children of every Egyptian household, save the Jews.

    *Exodus 32:27-28. God orders Moses et al to slaughter 3,000 people on one day for worshiping the golden calf.

    *Numbers 31. God commands Moses to make war on the Midanites, and Moses commands his soldiers to kill everyone, women and children included, and burn down their homes-- except for the virgin women, over 32,000 of which were taken as sex slaves, then, of all the war booty (including the virgin girls), God is given a "cut" like a Mafia Don.

    That's just a few. There's more.

    Quote
    Most civilized  peoples have a system of innocent until proven guilt.


    Actually that's only true of the common law countries (the UK and its former imperial holdings)-- in Continental Europe and most of the rest of the world, the civil law is used, which does not include such a jurisprudential principle as "innocent until proven guilty"

    Quote
    So I would think the proof is on you if you would like to prove God guilty of war crimes.


    It's not, but I provided it above all the same. The only way you could possibly refute it is by asserting very large portions of the Old Testament were not the inspired word of God, but rather fictional accounts written by people who were, in effect, slandering God and his prophets.

    fuck you
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #5 - October 03, 2011, 01:15 AM

    any other history you look at pivotal dates, things that have collaborating evidence, name of physical locations and people. If these things are all reliable, you have agood source, why doubt it on other things. This is the case with many histories even raather modern but they are considered reliable.

    So you want to ask me if I believe the global flood account?
    Yes, I do it's more believeable in my mind then the gaint meteor hit the earth to cause th decline of the dinosaur and rise of the mamaul.
    By the way both senerios would cause almost the same kind sedimentary layer. Interesting...

    Actually both likelly happened but the meteor was way before the dinosaurs I think.

    Alot is in how you look at things.
    The thing is to look.

    It's time for me to call my Mom
    Be safe
    Lynna

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #6 - October 03, 2011, 01:21 AM

    Huh?

    fuck you
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #7 - October 03, 2011, 01:37 AM

    So you want to ask me if I believe the global flood account?
    Yes, I do it's more believeable in my mind then the gaint meteor hit the earth to cause th decline of the dinosaur and rise of the mamaul.
    By the way both senerios would cause almost the same kind sedimentary layer. Interesting...

    No. They wouldn't at all. You obviously know nothing about geology.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #8 - October 03, 2011, 10:04 AM

    Well good. Being as I'm not on a computer and it taxes my cell phone to the limit to say much at one time, you haven't much to worry about. Least some day I go out of my way to get to computer and go crazy with cut and paste.

    We had conversation in the past on the topic of "hell".  So here is where I'll start even it being one of my least favorite subjects. I've learned a great deal from you as regard what Islam teaches on this subject, both what the Qu'ran an Hadith say. However as regards the Bible it does not teach that there is an eternal torment in a place of fire. Yes without doubt the majority of Chirstendom would misapply figurative language and parables to continue the lie for it's on gain. None the less there has nnot been success in hiding the true condition of the dead that is available in the Bible. In a video I think you made, at least it was direct link to your post, talked about words sheol and hades that are transliteratons of a Hebrew and a Greek word which each mean common grave of mankind. The Bible says the condition of the dead is to return to the dust to be conscious of nothing just like Adam was before he was made. So the point even though there are many people that would like to change what the Bible says so they can use it for their own gain it hasn't been done with success. I think this is evidence of Divine protection, that in over 1,600 years the corruptions of the text is not successful.

    It is not the case only with the subject of "hell" that this kind of arguement can be made. It also can be done with, 1)God is not a trinity 2)Human have freedom to make choices (or could call this one No predistentnation) 3)The Kingdom is a real government 4)Why humans die 5) Where Satan came from.

    Besides more topics that I can't think of right now and we're not going for massive volume.

    Also the Bible is historically correct on the things that can be proven.  Same as


    Thanks, Lynna - though I was asking about proof/evidence that the Bible is true.

    The fact that you don't believe in something that is unimaginably obscene, is admirable - but not proof of anything.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #9 - October 03, 2011, 11:33 AM

    Thanks, Lynna - though I was asking about proof/evidence that the Bible is true.

    The fact that you don't believe in something that is unimaginably obscene is admirable - but not proof of anything.


    Hummm...
    Oh well, I thought it is a very good point that the Bible text itself remains uncorrupted while the majority of Christendom has corrupted what it teaches the Bible says.
    I suppose to over look it may be on the same level of the majority of first century Israelites over looking Jesus as the Messiah because he didn't do what they thought he should do even though he did exactly what the prophets said he would do.
    Perhaps we can have a better conversation some other time Hassan. I'm not the best at explaining things. I spend alot more time reading then anything else.
    Be safe.
    Lynna

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #10 - October 03, 2011, 12:05 PM

    No. They wouldn't at all. You obviously know nothing about geology.


    I did not do the original research. I read about it in more them one book.  I'll look around for it again so I can repete it back exactly right.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #11 - October 03, 2011, 04:03 PM

    Oh well, I thought it is a very good point that the Bible text itself remains uncorrupted


    The Qur'an is also uncorrupted.

    Do you find that convincing evidence the Qur'an is true?

    Why?

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #12 - October 03, 2011, 04:09 PM

    ^ Wow, never thought I'd hear an ex-Muslim say that Tongue

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #13 - October 03, 2011, 04:14 PM

    Why not? The "uncorrupted" nature of the Quran is important to Muslims, but not to atheists.

    fuck you
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #14 - October 03, 2011, 04:24 PM

    ^ Wow, never thought I'd hear an ex-Muslim say that Tongue


    There are a few question marks about the textual integrity of the Qur'an, but many more about the Bible.

    However if (for arguments sake) I accept the Bible is uncorrupted - then I have to accept the Qur'an is too.

    btw Harakaat - when you were a Muslim, did the claim Muslims make that the Qur'an is exactly the same as it was when revealed to Muhammad seem impressive to you?

    I have to admit - like Lynna - I used to think it was (at least contributory) evidence that the Qur'an was from God.

    But when you think about it - that isn't evidence at all.

    Textual integrity proves nothing but the text has survived intact.

    Humpty Dumpty is also uncorrupted.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #15 - October 03, 2011, 04:25 PM

    Why not? The "uncorrupted" nature of the Quran is important to Muslims, but not to atheists.


    This^

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #16 - October 03, 2011, 04:28 PM

    Yup. As a Muslim, I was so convinced of the idea of religion, that if I ever doubted Islam I'd only consider converting to another religion like Christianity or Judaism. Given that the Quran is (at least putatively) the most well-preserved text among religious scriptures (which later turned out to be untrue, of course), that was "evidence" that Islam was "superior" to other religions, thus most likely to be true.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #17 - October 03, 2011, 06:43 PM

    Given that the Quran is (at least putatively) the most well-preserved text among religious scriptures (which later turned out to be untrue, of course),


    I think it's true as far as the Abrahamic religions go. The fact that it was written by one person at the time the religion was being organized, spread, and its core doctrines established helps-- as opposed to the Hebrew and Christian Bible which was a collection of texts written by several different authors long before it was decided which were canon and which weren't. If Mo had written the thing all at once, and not gone into the abrogation nonsense, then it would certainly be the most consistent of the texts.

    fuck you
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #18 - October 03, 2011, 08:27 PM

    Given that the Quran is (at least putatively) the most well-preserved text among religious scriptures (which later turned out to be untrue, of course)


    Not sure what you mean here?

    There is little evidence to dispute that the Qur'an is by enlarge the same text as uttered by Muhammad in the 7th century. There are variations in wording as recorded in the "7 Readings" literature ( almost certainly the consequence scribal errors due to the lack of vowels and diacritics in the early script.) However these variations are pretty minor and don't change the meaning dramatically. (i.e ملك يوم الدين  and  مالك يوم الدين )

    The San'a manuscripts seem to point to even greater variations - but as yet we have no solid evidence of that.

    There are certainly lost of theories about the 'oral evolution' of the Qur'an as put forward by Professor Wansbrough  and others.

    There are also internal clues that suggest scribal errors ( i.e. نفخ فيها  and in another verse نفخ فيه )

    But all this is speculation as yet.

    Compared to the recognised long history of changes, additions, deletions of the Bible - the Qur'an's textual integrity is in another league.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #19 - October 03, 2011, 08:36 PM

    The Bible is recognised by Christian scholars themselves to be the result of a long process of.....

    Although you did not end this sentence I understand. But, please, take account of the fact that these scholars only could publish their views when they were free of prosecution by the Christian churches!

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #20 - October 03, 2011, 08:55 PM

    Although you did not end this sentence I understand. But, please, take account of the fact that these scholars only could publish their views when they were free of prosecution by the Christian churches!


    I agree and I have no doubt that if Muslims scholars were allowed the same freedom - and indeed the freedom to doubt - and the Qur'an was subjected to the same rigorous scrutiny that the Bible has - a lot more evidence would emerge about the changes and evolution of the text of the Qur'an.

    But the Qur'an is a book that spans one generation. The (incomplete) Samarkandi manuscript is dated to 651 - 19 years after Muhammad.

    Whatever changes and anomalies that may eventually emerge, it still won't be in anyway comparable to evolution of the Bible - a book that it is accepted had several authors and spanned a much longer time period of change and evolution.

    I'm not saying this as a defence of the Qur'an - just stating a fact.

    The Qur'an's textual integrity is far superior to that of the Bible.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #21 - October 03, 2011, 09:21 PM

    Hassan, you may very well be right about the textual integrity of these books. On the other hands, Christianity does not have many additional holy texts, like the Islamic hadiths.

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #22 - October 03, 2011, 09:23 PM

    And?

    Sorry, I'm not sure what point you are making?

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #23 - October 03, 2011, 10:00 PM

    He's trying to say Islam, without the sunnah, is incomplete.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #24 - October 03, 2011, 10:15 PM

    He's trying to say Islam, without the sunnah, is incomplete.


    I agree, but that's another discussion entirely. I'm talking about the preservation of the texts of the Qur'an and Bible.

    It's not a competition of whether Christianity or Islam is the greater load of bullshit.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #25 - October 03, 2011, 10:19 PM

    I the sunnah is a term for all additional 'holy' texts of the Islam (both Shia and Sunni. and maybe more)  Olweasel is right I think .

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #26 - October 03, 2011, 10:31 PM

    This video has been posted here before, but Imma post it here because it has some excellent points. Plus this guy is megahot Tongue

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvRPbsXBVBo


    I remember watching his videos.... usually after 30 seconds I was thinking more about debauchery than debating  lipsrsealed

  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #27 - October 03, 2011, 11:31 PM

    I agree, but that's another discussion entirely. I'm talking about the preservation of the texts of the Qur'an and Bible.

    It's not a competition of whether Christianity or Islam is the greater load of bullshit.

    Yeah, I understand.

    I the sunnah is a term for all additional 'holy' texts of the Islam (both Shia and Sunni. and maybe more)  Olweasel is right I think .

    Muhammad's practices and sayings.
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #28 - October 04, 2011, 02:11 PM

    It's a good thing this thread is called "Akward Questions to Ask 'Moderate' Christians"
    Because if some one actually know the Bible the answers aren't that hard. However many here wont take the time to know the Biblical answer.


    Are you a christian? If yes, please tell me what exactly interested you in this forum?

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Discussion about topic: Awkward questions to ask Christians
     Reply #29 - October 04, 2011, 05:09 PM

    Oh well, I thought it is a very good point that the Bible text itself remains uncorrupted


    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016&version=NIV

    Read down and see what it says between verses 8 and 9.
    "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20"

    Also: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - was apparently not in the early manuscripts but was added later.  Not only was the bible corrupted, it seems that it was probably the nicest part that was made up.

    The bible is as corrupt as a politician with an employment policy that doesn't require receipts to claim for expenses.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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