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Theme Changer

 Topic: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam

 (Read 40549 times)
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  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #120 - May 03, 2012, 11:48 PM

    Pretty much.  Orientalism, like Islamophobia, while being real can be used as a curmudgeon against anyone who disagrees with the sacrosanct spheres of acceptable discourse.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #121 - May 04, 2012, 01:48 AM

    Orientalism, like Islamophobia, while being real can be used as a curmudgeon against anyone who disagrees

    Curmudgeoned to death.

    Fantastic.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #122 - May 04, 2012, 01:14 PM

    It is Said's concept of orientalism that is confused, setting up these false ideas of the corrupt capitalist west and the somehow raped innocent colonised East.

    The reality is that groups with power are continually changing, and for some fascinating reason "the West" has hit on some killer apps whilst in contrast the East has got stuck in puritanical authoritarian sexist repressive systems.

    No one is perfect but some systems are clearly far better than others.  What is very sad is that the required principles were agreed on a world wide basis.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #123 - May 04, 2012, 01:16 PM

    And read it in order - it is critical to understand the background, the gestalt, the forerunners.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #124 - May 04, 2012, 01:24 PM

    Curmudgeoned to death.

    Fantastic.

    lol @ my spell check. Should be bludgeon.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #125 - May 04, 2012, 02:09 PM

    It is Said's concept of orientalism that is confused, setting up these false ideas of the corrupt capitalist west and the somehow raped innocent colonised East.

    The reality is that groups with power are continually changing, and for some fascinating reason "the West" has hit on some killer apps whilst in contrast the East has got stuck in puritanical authoritarian sexist repressive systems.

    No one is perfect but some systems are clearly far better than others.  What is very sad is that the required principles were agreed on a world wide basis.


    The 'east' had killer apps itself. For centuries Islam was the supreme imperialist power and civilisation. Contemporary Islam hasn't shaken off the attitude of that.

    Said should be read with a critical eye. He has some good insights and its always good to read texts in relation to their wider cultural context, including the contexts of colonialism and imperialism. However being doctrinaire over his ideas as a pure model for understanding, rather than as a mount for ideology, doesn't always work, to say the least.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #126 - May 04, 2012, 02:46 PM

    Who has read Said's book "Orientalism"? I have not but have been meaning to.

    But from what I understand (I watched a documentary about his concept) it is a criticism of western academics who have often had a naive, over-romanticized, and misguided view of Eastern civilizations? Is that about right?

    If so then you could easily argue that Westerners that look on Islam in a very favorable light (such as Martin Lings or Karen Armstrong) are just as guilty of "Orientalism".

    In fact, from what I learnt in this documentary, Said himself was born a Christian Palestinian but moved out of the Middle East to Massachusetts while he was still a small child and then studied at Harvard. If so then perhaps Said himself is just as guilty of Orientalism.

    But regardless of that, many Muslims today use the term "Orientalist" to describe any academic whatsoever who has studied Islam but is not a Muslim, which would basically include just about every historian or sociologist out there. The vast majority of academics in these fields are atheists.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #127 - May 04, 2012, 02:53 PM

    Orientalist is often just a meaningless slur now. And yes, people like Karen Armstrong may be called orientalists, although I'd prefer to call them condescending douchebags with a 'noble savage' view on Islam and eastern cultures.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #128 - May 04, 2012, 08:47 PM

    Armstrong is seriously disabled with epilepsy that is very likely the cause of her progodness - she actually does experience God.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #129 - May 04, 2012, 08:49 PM

    Just started chapter 6.

    Is the start date for Islam when the Roman Emperor returns the True Cross to Jerusalem?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #130 - May 04, 2012, 09:02 PM

    According to wikipedia, Heraclius brought the "true cross" back to Jerusalem in 630 AD, which is year 8 of the Arabian Era.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #131 - May 04, 2012, 10:29 PM

    ROFL. Which true cross? They had stacks of them.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #132 - May 05, 2012, 09:48 PM

    I had not realised that one third of the Roman Empire's population had been wiped out by bubonic plague in the decades before Uncle Mo, and the only groups with any protection were tribal groups like the arabs.

    It was basically a wasteland over the Roman and Persian Empires.

    There were no real defences against marauders

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #133 - May 06, 2012, 05:38 PM

    P 354

    The conquering armies of "believers" were joint Jewish and Arab forces!  The defending Roman and Persian forces were Arab "federati", the regular troops all having been wiped out by the plague!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #134 - May 08, 2012, 10:07 AM


    The Guardian published a hatchet job review, invoking Islamophobia, but they gave Holland a right to reply, which was decent of them. He nails it.

    ++++++



    Tom Holland responds to Glen Bowersock's review of In the Shadow of the Sword

    Many scholars would now agree that the origins of the Qur'an are obscure, so why does Glen Bowersock's review of my book suggest it is reprehensible to bring this to light?


    Is it justifiable to question what Muslim tradition has to say about the origins of Islam? Readers of Glen Bowersock's review of my book might very well conclude not. That Qur'anic studies are currently in a state of the utmost disarray is a fact he simply shrugs aside. Instead, my book is cast by him as something worse than irresponsible. In a dyspeptic final paragraph, he strongly implies that it was cooked up by "author, agent and publisher" as something truly reprehensible: an attempt to exploit Islamophobia for commercial gain

    This is a serious charge – and since it is founded on Bowersock's claim that my scholarship is shoddy and out on a limb, I hope that he will forgive me defending myself. I am accused of twisting my sources. I could, however, level much the same charge against Bowersock's criticisms of me. In a passage on the early Qur'anic manuscripts found in Sana'a, for instance, he condemns my failure to mention that various palimpsests are currently "with the publisher". But he has missed the two points that I am clearly using my brief mention of the Sana'a manuscripts to make. First – since "with the publisher" effectively equals "not yet published" – it has been impossible for any scholarly consensus as to their precise significance to emerge. Second, what research on them has so far been published points to the fact that the Qur'anic text, far from evolving over the seventh and eighth centuries, as some venturesome scholars have suggested in the past, seems to have been broadly stable throughout that period. My conclusion, in other words, could hardly be more sober. "There is not a hint of deliberate fabrication in any of the Sana'a fragments."

    This, it seems to me, is as much certainty as the ferociously contested fields of Qur'anic palaeography and orthography will permit. If I did not cite a manuscript in the Bibliothèque Nationale dated by the French scholar François Déroche to the third quarter of the seventh century, it was not – as Bowersock charges – because I had "missed" it, but because the dating of early Qur'an manuscripts is notoriously a work in progress. Déroche himself, for instance, originally placed the origins of the Bibliothèque Nationale manuscript in the early eighth century – and there are other scholars who still do. Nor, unfortunately, does carbon dating offer any greater certainty. At a conference in 2010, the same Christian Robin cited by Bowersock in his review revealed that a preliminary carbon dating of some pages from one of the Sana'a palimpsests had given dates in the late 500s – a most awkward misfire. I hope, then, that it will be understandable why, in a book aimed at a general readership, I opted not to venture into such a quagmire.

    Instead, in my attempt to explore where and how the Qur'an might have emerged, if not from God, I adopted what is currently a fashion in Qur'anic studies, by looking at it in its historical context. The challenge with adopting this approach – which in any other field of history would be wholly uncontroversial – is that Muslim accounts of its composition, all of them written long after the lifetime of Muhammad, and often in direct contradiction of the Qur'an itself, are the only accounts we possess. No wonder, then, that Fred Donner, the éminence grise of early Islamic studies, should openly have acknowledged that "we simply do not know some very basic things about the Qur'an – things so basic that the knowledge of them is usually taken for granted by scholars dealing with other texts." Attempts to explain its origins, then, cannot help but be provisional. I could hardly have been any clearer in emphasising that point. It is precisely why my chapter on Muhammad is titled "More Questions than Answers".

    It is in this light that most of Bowersock's criticisms should be seen. When I suggest that "Quraysh", the name given by Muslim tradition to Muhammad's tribe, might have derived from a Syriac word, "qarisha", I am casting it as precisely that: a suggestion. Bowersock is wrong that the Syriac root verb – "QRSh" – means only to congeal or clot. Look up page 1,418 of the most recent Syriac lexicon, by Michael Sokoloff, and a definition can be found corresponding to an Arabic cognate: "to gather people". Hardly the stuff of gripping popular history, of course; and yet readers need to be reassured that my narrative, however "swashbuckling," draws on years of careful research.

    Of course, even Homer nods – and Bowersock himself can sometimes nap. How he can approvingly cite the seminal study on Meccan trade by his erstwhile Princeton colleague, Patricia Crone, and simultaneously claim that "no one before has seriously doubted the conjunction of Muhammad and Mecca," I am at a loss to explain. It is precisely such a doubt that lies at the heart of Crone's book. Nor is she alone: many leading Qur'anic scholars would now admit that it remains deeply obscure where the Qur'an might originally have taken shape.

    Most egregiously of all, Bowersock says that the Dutch title of the book – The Fourth Beast – "looks like" it was chosen "to profit from recent Dutch anxiety over Muslim immigrants". Au contraire – as with my previous book, so with this, Dutch and British publishers chose different titles, from a whole number suggested by me. The Fourth Beast was a phrase derived from the Biblical Book of Daniel, applied successively to the pagan Roman empire, its Christian heir, and the Arab Caliphate – making it the perfect title for a survey of all three. I invite anyone who doubts that simply to read the penultimate paragraph of my book.

    Bowersock is a formidable scholar for whom I have great admiration – and his most recent work on ancient Ethiopia shows him to be as on the ball as ever. But this review, which is targetted not just at me but at an entire efflorescence in contemporary scholarship, is unworthy of him. Far from it being inappropriate to place the rise of Islam in the context of "languages and ideas floating around in the Near East", the truly inappropriate thing, I would suggest, is to veil an important trend in scholarship from the gaze of the general public, and to scold those who would seek to lift it.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/may/07/tom-holland-responds-glen-bowersock?INTCMP=SRCH


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #135 - May 08, 2012, 02:58 PM

    Quote
    Nor, unfortunately, does carbon dating offer any greater certainty. At a conference in 2010, the same Christian Robin cited by Bowersock in his review revealed that a preliminary carbon dating of some pages from one of the Sana'a palimpsests had given dates in the late 500s – a most awkward misfire.


    Quote
    "no one before has seriously doubted the conjunction of Muhammad and Mecca," I am at a loss to explain. It is precisely such a doubt that lies at the heart of Crone's book. Nor is she alone: many leading Qur'anic scholars would now admit that it remains deeply obscure where the Qur'an might originally have taken shape.


    I formally propose the Quran is older than 600 CE.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #136 - May 08, 2012, 05:14 PM

    Well from a secular perspective of course it is. There are many stories within it that date back to before the Christian Era. The story of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba can be dated to at least the Achaemenid Era, but possibly even older.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #137 - May 08, 2012, 05:36 PM

    So the Sa'naa scrolls are from 575-590 CE, 20 years before Islam say's it is from. Given the fact that southern arabia is much greener than central arabia (Mecca) do people think it could be from there as Sa'naa is in Yemen.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #138 - May 08, 2012, 06:04 PM

    Where are you getting that date range from?

    According to Dr. Puin in this documentary, the Sanaa scrolls date to the Caliphate of Al Walid I (705 - 715 AD). He says so himself at 2:06 in the video.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #139 - May 08, 2012, 08:59 PM

    Holland has a very interesting argument that the koran was written by someone who was obviously literate and actually quite skilled at writing.  Can\t find the quotes now but Holland quotes lines about scrolls and things bing like.  There are also very summarised allusions to stuff.

    And as Mecca was first placed in Iraq...

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #140 - May 08, 2012, 09:08 PM

    And as Mecca was first placed in Iraq...


    What page did he say that? I thought he was arguing that Mecca was actually at Mamre in Palestine.

    I haven't finished reading the book yet, still on the last chapter.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #141 - May 08, 2012, 09:17 PM

    He quotes something somewhere.  I thought Mamre and Abraham basically got forgotten when they killed that ibn bloke.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #142 - May 09, 2012, 07:02 PM


    A comment from Dr Keith Small under Tom Holland's response to the review by Bowersock.

    +++++

    Adamastor is correct in asserting in this case the date of origin of these fragments is not the crucial issue. It is instead, how the text on these fragments fits into the overall historical context, even given the widest spread of possible datings. Robin was not confused in his caution of using these dates as the final word. It is an acknowledged fact among early Arabic paleographers that radiometric dating provides supporting information for datings arrived at through other means- analysis of the script styles, analysis of codicology issues of the manuscript itself, all tied to an interpretation of the general historical context. The issue being highlighted in Holland’s work is that the very historical context is being legitimately debated because of the nature of the historical sources.

    Concerning Sadeghi, thankfully, he has published his reading of the underlying text in this palimpsest, and he acknowledges he was working from photographs provided to him by Christian Robin. His is the third foray into reading the underlying text of pages of this palimpsest- following works by A. Fedeli and E. Puin who were working from lower quality photographs than Sadeghi had at his disposal. Sadeghi’s work, though, now needs to be subjected to the normal methods of the Academy and be carefully scrutinized and double-checked. Also, the methodology he uses in his two articles (a prior one in the journal Arabica) is open to valid criticism on many points. He consistently reads and interprets the evidence provided by the texts of the palimpsest through the lens of later and secondary Islamic tradition, rather than interpreting the correctness of later Islamic tradition by the more primary evidence provided by the texts of the palimpsest and other early Qur'an manuscripts. He makes a rudimentary mistake by placing more evidential value on a partial reading of secondary sources, rather than giving full weight to primary sources.

    And, even Sadeghi’s handling of Islamic tradition is open to criticism in that he does not mention even once in the hundreds of pages of his articles that the Caliph Uthman, whose text he so strongly supports, ordered the variant Qur’an texts that came into his possession burnt! (Bukhari 6:510) Later tradition cited by Ibn Abi Dawud says this order included destroying texts through fire, washing, erasing, and shredding! (Kitab al-Masahif 14.11-18). This is exactly the kind of action evident in this palimpsest, and it could very well provide a window into this crucial period of time in the mid to late 600s through to the early 700s CE- during the reign of the Umayyad Caliph Abd-al-Malik, when the text of the Qur’an was being edited and shaped into a standardized consonantal form. Such an action would have cut off access to more original forms of the text of the Qur’an and whatever evidence they can provide about early Islamic history. Also, it can be legitimately and more convincingly argued that what is found in the underlying text of this palimpsest is closer to what would have been the original forms of the Qur’an’s text than the upper text. The Qur’an, according to Islamic tradition and from what can be discerned from the manuscript tradition, does not have a normal transmission history because of this state-sponsored intervention.

    Scholarly and general readerships are indebted to Tom Holland for bringing these crucial arguments into the light of day, and from such a reputable background of sound historical scholarship.

    Dr. Keith E. Small, London School of Theology, author of Textual Criticism and Qur’an Manuscripts, Lexington Books: 2011.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/16042065


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #143 - May 10, 2012, 10:37 PM

    P 354

    The conquering armies of "believers" were joint Jewish and Arab forces!  The defending Roman and Persian forces were Arab "federati", the regular troops all having been wiped out by the plague!


    Honestly Moi, some times you seem to just run with stuff and over-exaggerate on what it actually says. Where in the book does it say that the regular troops had all been wiped out by the plague?

    I wish the book was more specific about what plague he is talking about. He does not mention it by name or provide a source. I am assuming, though not certain, that he is talking about the Plague of Justinian which occurred 100 years prior to the Islamic Conquest and actually coincides with some of Rome's most prolific military expansion.
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #144 - May 11, 2012, 12:46 AM

    Oh, I just noticed this is Tom Holland.
    I just ordered a book by him (Rubicon: The Triumph and Tragedy of the Roman Republic), if its any good, I'll be sure to pick this one up also

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #145 - May 11, 2012, 01:00 AM

    OK, this is weird...I cant order the ebook or audiobook from the US, friggen PIA publishers

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #146 - May 11, 2012, 01:02 AM

    going to Amazon?

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #147 - May 11, 2012, 01:10 AM

    Yep, Amazon UK has it, but if I try and order it says it cant sell it to my geographical area.
    Amazon US can only sell the hardcover which is a bit more pricey...and well a hardcover (what is this the caveman days? paper?)

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #148 - May 11, 2012, 01:34 AM

    This title will be released on May 15, 2012.

    It's still in preorder in the States that could be why

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Sensational new book on the origins and construction of Islam
     Reply #149 - May 11, 2012, 09:52 AM


    I downloaded his book called Persian Fire to read next.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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