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Theme Changer

 Topic: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan

 (Read 7917 times)
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  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #30 - March 11, 2012, 09:50 PM

    Hmm yeah. Decade long sanctions failed to stop Pakistan from getting nukes, I guess policy makers in Washington don't want to repeat that mistake again and allow another moslem country getting nukes. But any aerial attack won't be enough to prevent Iran, only a ground invasion and occupation will.  whistling2

    Yeezevee can hide the blasts in his fat arse.

    *spanks Yeezeeve*

    yes it is possble
    Quote
    The smallest nuclear weapon known to the public was the W54, a 10.6"x15.7" (27.3 x 40 cm) cylinder that only weighed 51 lbs (23 kg). The W54 was used in both the Davy Crockett recoilless rifle (a nuclear mortar for ground troops) and the Mk-54 SADM (Special Atomic Demolition Munition), a hand-delivered nuclear time-bomb for attacking enemy ports. The prototype for the W54, tested during Operation Hardtack in 1954, was even smaller, at just 10.6"x11.8" (27 x 30 cm), close to what many nuclear scientists think is the theoretically smallest nuclear weapon. The Davy Crockett had a 10-20 ton yield — intentionally kept low to be safe to those firing it — while the SADM had a variable yield between 10 tons and 1 kiloton.

    A piece that is 10.6"x15.7" or  (27.3 x 40 cm) can be hidden  in yeezevee's fat arse or any person's arse after he/she is dead.. You can hide that size piece in a dead body..
    If you are testing nukes, people will know. It's not as easy to hide as you might think.

    Well you are supposed to hide the material  until you explode., once you explode,  it will be nuclear nation and none can do anything except go for negotiations

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #31 - March 11, 2012, 09:53 PM

    If they are, I believe they have every right to..........

    By the way, although you may believe (hallelujah, brothers and sisters!) anything you like, it may also be prudent to take into account the effects of a nuclear arms race in the region.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #32 - March 11, 2012, 10:09 PM

    The day he-must-not-be-named acquired nukes is the day a nuclear arms race started.
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #33 - March 11, 2012, 10:11 PM

    That dodges the point rather than deals with it. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #34 - March 11, 2012, 10:25 PM


    Militarism in Pakistan has damned the minorities because it relies on an ultra-nationalist Islamic agenda to consolidate itself. That feeds into demonisations of non Muslims and those Muslims who don't subscribe to that agenda, and a competitive scrambling amongst extremists to be the holiest of all.

    I can't see where the relief from this comes from.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #35 - March 11, 2012, 10:26 PM

    That dodges the point rather than deals with it. Wink


    No it doesn't. You can't prevent an arms race if it already exists.  -_-
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #36 - March 11, 2012, 10:28 PM

    No it doesn't. You can't prevent an arms race if it already exists.  -_-

    At the moment it doesn't. Not really. If Iran did get nukes it would start a race though. Every other country in the region would have nukes too within a couple of years. My feeling is that things are dodgey enough already, and the fewer crazy buggers who have nukes, the better things are likely to be.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #37 - March 11, 2012, 10:38 PM

    The other thing is that regardless of what you may think about Iran's rights the US and Israel, and quite likely several other countries, simply wont countenance the scenario of a nuclear-armed Iran. IOW, going for nukes is the most self-destructive thing they could do. If you don't want Iran to be attacked (and I would definitely prefer that it wasn't) then it's difficult to support their nuclear ambitions.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #38 - March 11, 2012, 11:15 PM

    If they are, I believe they have every right to ...

    Despite the fact that Iran is a party to the non-proliferation treaty? In the past they have failed to comply with their obligations as defined in the NPT though. Hypocrites?
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #39 - March 11, 2012, 11:55 PM

    The NPT has as much right to exist as the UN, meaning none.

    At the moment it doesn't. Not really. If Iran did get nukes it would start a race though. Every other country in the region would have nukes too within a couple of years. My feeling is that things are dodgey enough already, and the fewer crazy buggers who have nukes, the better things are likely to be.


    Iraq and Syria have had nuclear programs, both have been hit because of it. Both had a legitimate reason to acquire such weapons.

    The other thing is that regardless of what you may think about Iran's rights the US and Israel, and quite likely several other countries, simply wont countenance the scenario of a nuclear-armed Iran. IOW, going for nukes is the most self-destructive thing they could do. If you don't want Iran to be attacked (and I would definitely prefer that it wasn't) then it's difficult to support their nuclear ambitions.


    So they should give into threats of a declining superpower? Should they also sell their oil cheap and invest all their petro-dollars into western corporations? Iran isn't Saudi.  Tongue If they want something they'll get it. Just last week something like 100 countries (all NAM I think) backed the right for Iran to have a nuclear program. I support whatever Iranians support.  Smiley And the nuclear program is one of the very few good things the Mullahs are doing.
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #40 - March 12, 2012, 12:04 AM

    Iraq and Syria have had nuclear programs, both have been hit because of it. Both had a legitimate reason to acquire such weapons.

    And you could also argue that the strikes that eliminated those programs had legitimate reasons behind them too.


    Quote
    So they should give into threats of a declining superpower? Should they also sell their oil cheap and invest all their petro-dollars into western corporations? Iran isn't Saudi.  Tongue If they want something they'll get it. Just last week something like 100 countries (all NAM I think) backed the right for Iran to have a nuclear program. I support whatever Iranians support.  Smiley And the nuclear program is one of the very few good things the Mullahs are doing.

    This has nothing to do with the price they choose to put on their own oil. It has to do with whether you want to see another war.

    Let's say, just for argument's sake, that Iranians supported starting another war in the middle East. Would you still support whatever Iranians support?

    For that matter, given some of the things in the Iranian legal code, can we assume that you support all of that too?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #41 - March 12, 2012, 12:19 AM

    And you could also argue that the strikes that eliminated those programs had legitimate reasons behind them too.


    I'm over the who's right and who's wrong crap so don't really care.  Tongue

    This has nothing to do with the price they choose to put on their own oil. It has to do with whether you want to see another war.


    It has everything to do with it, this nuclear crap is something that's part of a wider conflict. A conflict against those who won't give into US pressure/foreign policy. If Iran was another Saudi, and it oppressed minorities and women as much but didn't have a backbone we'd never hear it being demonised as much. Prevent women from driving, ban churches but support us and you're 'moderates', oppose us and you're terrorists---secular or otherwise. Fuck the US and anyone who supports it. I don't want to see another war, that's why I want to US to GTFO.  Smiley
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #42 - March 12, 2012, 04:47 AM

    I'm over the who's right and who's wrong crap so don't really care.  Tongue

    Then why bother making claims about who was or wasn't "legitimate"? You're the one who started on about rights n stuff. I was just being pragmatic.


    Quote
    It has everything to do with it, this nuclear crap is something that's part of a wider conflict. A conflict against those who won't give into US pressure/foreign policy. If Iran was another Saudi, and it oppressed minorities and women as much but didn't have a backbone we'd never hear it being demonised as much. Prevent women from driving, ban churches but support us and you're 'moderates', oppose us and you're terrorists---secular or otherwise. Fuck the US and anyone who supports it. I don't want to see another war, that's why I want to US to GTFO.  Smiley

    No, it has nothing to do with the price of oil. Nobody is complaining about the price Iran wants to sell its oil for. If they announced tomorrow that they were putting the price up 30%, nobody would be talking about military action. It's complete bollocks to conflate the two issues.

    The current issue is nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons only.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #43 - March 12, 2012, 07:09 PM

    Then why bother making claims about who was or wasn't "legitimate"? You're the one who started on about rights n stuff. I was just being pragmatic.


    I'm not, I'm just pointing out how the Iranians see it.

    No, it has nothing to do with the price of oil. Nobody is complaining about the price Iran wants to sell its oil for. If they announced tomorrow that they were putting the price up 30%, nobody would be talking about military action. It's complete bollocks to conflate the two issues.

    The current issue is nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons only.


    Sure its got nothing to do with oil. Mosaddegh was overthrown for other reasons, right?  Tongue The US uses any issue it can to attack the Iranians simply because its not like Saudi, you'd have to be naive to think otherwise.

    If Iran was pro-US like it was under the Shah then the Iranian nuclear programme wouldn't be an issue, hell they'd even get assistance like the Shah did.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #44 - March 13, 2012, 08:38 PM

    I can do rolly eyes too. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Tongue

    We aint talking about Mossadegh. That was ages ago. We're talking about the current situation.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #45 - March 13, 2012, 09:11 PM

    In case you hadn't noticed the same policies that applied then are still being applied now.  Tongue And if Mossadegh hadn't been overthrown there would be no Islamic revolution in Iran.  yes
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #46 - March 13, 2012, 09:13 PM

    Piffle. Tongue

    Anyway, back to the present day and current issues.........................

    Bit odd wanting nukes as a deterrent to attack if going for nukes is going to make sure you are attacked. Kinda stupid, no?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #47 - March 13, 2012, 09:32 PM

    I think, they think that they're balls are bigger than those of the US thus they won't attack. And I think they're right. But Israel is insecure enough to attack if they attack without US assistance then Iran can and probably will try to keep the US out of it, just like Hezbollah kept the US out of it in 2006. At the end of the day it comes down to how much love there is for Israel in Washington.

    If I was a leader, I'd rather my country be burnt to ashes than give into threats.

    And btw, any "proof" of Iran acquiring nukes right now has too be looked at with suspicion, anything else is being naive.  Tongue I mean  the IAEA suddenly changed its rhetoric regarding Iran's nuclear weapons when the hand-picked Japanese retard became its head. His subservience to the US and its policies have been exposed by wikileaks.

    (C) In a meeting with Ambassador on the eve of the two-week Board of Governors (BoG) and General Conference (GC) marathon of mid-September, IAEA Director General-designate Yukiya Amano thanked the U.S. for having supported his candidacy and took pains to emphasize his support for U.S. strategic objectives for the AgencyAmano reminded Ambassador on several occasions that he would need to make concessions to the G-77, which correctly required him to be fair-minded and independent, but that he was solidly in the U.S. court on every key strategic decision, from high-level personnel appointments to the handling of Iran's alleged  nuclear weapons program.

    http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/10/09UNVIEVIENNA478.html#
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #48 - March 13, 2012, 09:38 PM

    I think, they think that they're balls are bigger than those of the US thus they won't attack.

    TBH I think this is what this is all about: some daft old ayatollahs wanting to wave their balls around in an attempt to impress everyone.


    Quote
    And I think they're right.

    I wouldn't be too sure of that.


    Quote
    If I was a leader, I'd rather my country be burnt to ashes than give into threats.

    Congratulations on having a higher regard for your own ego than for the welfare of your people. You'd make a great leader.


    Quote
    And btw, any "proof" of Iran acquiring nukes right now has too be looked at with suspicion, anything else is being naive.  Tongue I mean  the IAEA suddenly changed its rhetoric regarding Iran's nuclear weapons when the hand-picked Japanese retard became its head. His subservience to the US and its policies have been exposed by wikileaks.

    When Iran announces it is testing a ballistic missile delivery system, and when it lies about the extent of its nuclear program, I think there are very good grounds for assuming they are after nuclear weapons. TBH, I think it would be naive to assume that any evidence of Iran being after nuclear weapons must be false.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #49 - March 13, 2012, 10:00 PM

    Congratulations on having a higher regard for your own ego than for the welfare of your people. You'd make a great leader.


    Meh, I'd rather die hungry and poor but free than live the high life in the shackles of fear and intimidation.

    When Iran announces it is testing a ballistic missile delivery system, and when it lies about the extent of its nuclear program, I think there are very good grounds for assuming they are after nuclear weapons.


    Non-nuclear states have ballistic missiles too. There's a difference between lying and not telling. Well they're about allow inspectors into some facilities soon, remind me the last time inspectors were allowed to inspect the nuclear facilities of say Israel or the US.  Roll Eyes

    TBH, I think it would be naive to assume that any evidence of Iran being after nuclear weapons must be false.


    Yeah I agree. Personally I think they want to get the know how and build the capability without actually having any ready.
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #50 - March 14, 2012, 12:04 AM

    http://ahraza.wordpress.com/2009/11/21/i-want-jinnah%E2%80%99s-pakistan/

    tariq ali article
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #51 - March 14, 2012, 12:25 PM

    And the bhutto that came before and after him are innocent? Roll Eyes Most of that colonial rubbish still exists, hence the feudal crap.

    Pakistan needs a strong leader like Imran Khan, nothing more manly than a Pashtun named Khan :3

    @Yeez

    So what if its a female organ? :S Its a slur that I grew up using.


    You're clearly talking non-sense, Bhutto was a western educated secularist the PPP is a secular democracy it is not even an Islamic party. Bhutto was hanged on trumped up charges, Bhutto was a visionary and a good leader. The feudal system in Pakistan is knocked by low to low-middle-classes the reason being jealousy, the huge amounts of agricultural lands owned by Lambardars has a benefit. My grandfather was a lambardar, so to is my father and my family alone provide food and shelter and jobs for alot of the poor-families. The system works by mutual benefit, the crops are picked by the poorer families and during harvest season and 10% of the crop yield is given to the poor families who helped in the harvest process, in fact we have a few houses in Pakistan which are not occupied by us but by poor families, they protect the property and as a benefit they get to live in it rent free, they do minimal tasks for the family are they are paid for it. If you get rid of this system the powerful lambardar/zimidar families would just sell the land to the government, and live a comfortable lifestyle, what the hell are the poor going to do they will not have any jobs working on the fields they are uneducated. Even my family pays for medical bills of those poor families who work for us.

  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #52 - March 14, 2012, 01:22 PM

    Ah yes, that great leader and example to us all, Bhutto.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=_Q5tvAYi5js

    Back on topic, a question. As I understand it, Tariq Ali's thesis could be read like this: if Pakistan couldn't be made to take into account the wishes of an economically and demographically weightier part of the country all that time ago - and its elites (feudal or not) have remained much the same since - lesser minorities will continue to suffer so that they remain in place. What's actually wrong with this analysis?
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #53 - March 14, 2012, 02:20 PM

    From what I understand, it's basically the whole damned country that is responsible.


    The vast majority of people that vote are illiterate and voting in favour of the person that owns the land that they earn their living on. One can hardly blame serfs for being forced, on pain of survival, into voting for their feudal lords.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #54 - March 14, 2012, 04:13 PM

    You're clearly talking non-sense, Bhutto was a western educated secularist the PPP is a secular democracy it is not even an Islamic party. Bhutto was hanged on trumped up charges, Bhutto was a visionary and a good leader. The feudal system in Pakistan is knocked by low to low-middle-classes the reason being jealousy, the huge amounts of agricultural lands owned by Lambardars has a benefit. My grandfather was a lambardar, so to is my father and my family alone provide food and shelter and jobs for alot of the poor-families. The system works by mutual benefit, the crops are picked by the poorer families and during harvest season and 10% of the crop yield is given to the poor families who helped in the harvest process, in fact we have a few houses in Pakistan which are not occupied by us but by poor families, they protect the property and as a benefit they get to live in it rent free, they do minimal tasks for the family are they are paid for it. If you get rid of this system the powerful lambardar/zimidar families would just sell the land to the government, and live a comfortable lifestyle, what the hell are the poor going to do they will not have any jobs working on the fields they are uneducated. Even my family pays for medical bills of those poor families who work for us.




    Western educated doesn't always mean you're a nice, logical clever person, you're a classic example you can't even spell nonsense. I never said it was an Islamic party. I did say they're prepared to ally themselves with anyone to remain power, that includes Islamists. A visionary that help split Pakistan up.  Cheesy He did do some good, no doubt about that but overall he was just another cunt. Yes, they want a fairer system because they're jealous.  Roll Eyes They can continue working on those lands, its the states responsibility to provide education, shelter and healthcare. "kapra, makan, cheela" is a PPP slogan remember, shame they've never lived up to it and never will.

    Ah yes, that great leader and example to us all, Bhutto.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=_Q5tvAYi5js


    Meh, glad I was never a fan of him or his fucking party. I have Islam to thank for that.  parrot
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #55 - March 14, 2012, 08:27 PM

    The vast majority of people that vote are illiterate and voting in favour of the person that owns the land that they earn their living on. One can hardly blame serfs for being forced, on pain of survival, into voting for their feudal lords.

    I'm not talking about voting. I'm talking about the attitudes held by people.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #56 - March 14, 2012, 08:29 PM

    Personally I think they want to get the know how and build the capability without actually having any ready.

    Yeah, sure. I mean having bit and pieces of nukes lying around, that you might be able to assemble into something that works if you were given enough time, is going to be an awesome deterrent.

    Of course, your rose-coloured glasses must be working properly, because we all know the mullahs are such lovely people. Roll Eyes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #57 - March 14, 2012, 10:25 PM

    Of course, your rose-coloured glasses must be working properly, because we all know the mullahs are such lovely people. Roll Eyes


    This has nothing to do with the ruling Mullahs. Its to do with Iran advancing in nuclear technology. Funny how you like western politicians always point to the Mullahs when its the people being targeted by the sanctions and the scientists being killed, the Mullahs aren't affected. Oh and FYI my glasses are realistic *tries to remember the last time Iran attacked another country since the revolution* ermmmm NEVER. The conclusion? The Mullahs, despite their craziness are far peaceful and tolerant than the likes of NATO/US---fact that no amount of BS and warmongering rhetoric can change.  Smiley And before you say OMG look at their human rights abuse, I suggest you look at the human rights records of every single nuclear armed state today and the 'moderates' in the region. Meh.

    Oh and fuck Chelsea. They're the reason why I'm ranting right now. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :@
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #58 - March 16, 2012, 06:52 PM

    Ah yes, that great leader and example to us all, Bhutto.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=_Q5tvAYi5js

    Back on topic, a question. As I understand it, Tariq Ali's thesis could be read like this: if Pakistan couldn't be made to take into account the wishes of an economically and demographically weightier part of the country all that time ago - and its elites (feudal or not) have remained much the same since - lesser minorities will continue to suffer so that they remain in place. What's actually wrong with this analysis?


    yep he was great:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLSR9rWiBiU&feature=related
  • Re: Tariq Ali: Minorities in Pakistan
     Reply #59 - March 19, 2012, 10:03 PM

    This has nothing to do with the ruling Mullahs. Its to do with Iran advancing in nuclear technology. Funny how you like western politicians always point to the Mullahs when its the people being targeted by the sanctions and the scientists being killed, the Mullahs aren't affected. Oh and FYI my glasses are realistic *tries to remember the last time Iran attacked another country since the revolution* ermmmm NEVER. The conclusion? The Mullahs, despite their craziness are far peaceful and tolerant than the likes of NATO/US---fact that no amount of BS and warmongering rhetoric can change.  Smiley And before you say OMG look at their human rights abuse, I suggest you look at the human rights records of every single nuclear armed state today and the 'moderates' in the region. Meh.

    You're ranting about several different issues here. Breaking it down:

    1/ Teh Mullahs (may the fleas of a thousand camels infest their beards): Unfortunately, this does have everything to do with the ruling mullahs, since it's the ruling mullahs who get to call the shots in Iran. Denying this is head in the sand material.

    2/ Nuclear technology: Not necessarily a bad thing, or at least it can be argued that way. However, the uses to which it will be put are important.

    3/ Sanctions: Yes, I know they always have less direct effect on ruling classes, who can insulate themselves to a large extent. However, sanctions are intended to be a less destructive (compared to military action) means of exerting pressure, by making the ruling classes less popular within their own country. IOW, the hope is that sanctions will be less harmful to the general population.

    4/ Assassinations of scientists: I agree this is not good.

    5/ Iran attacking other countries: No, Iran has not engaged in outright and direct military action using its state's armed forces. However, it still has to be said that Iran has definitely been involved in attacking other countries.

    6/ Mullahs being peaceful and tolerant: Yeah, sure. Just don't mention the last "Green Revolution", or the calls for the extermination of Israel, or the support for groups who want that result.

    And don't try to deflect this into a "Fuck Israel" rant. The point is not whether Israel rocks or not. The point is "What does Iran want nuclear weapons for?".

    7/ Human rights issues: I agree that most states in the region have human rights records that vary from bad to worse. That still has nothing to do with the central issue here.

    The central issue, IMO, is whether or not a nuclear-armed Iran will be a good thing.

    Quote
    Oh and fuck Chelsea. They're the reason why I'm ranting right now. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :@

    Bomb them. It's good for freedom and democracy. yes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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