Americans .. Go burn your women but dammit stop burning Quran.. :finmad: :fi

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Re: Americans .. Go burn your women but dammit stop burning Quran.. :finmad: :fi
Reply #30 - February 22, 2012, 08:11 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 22, 2012, 08:00 AM
McVeigh made no attempt to avoid civilian casualties, but personally I'd be more inclined to class him as "nutter" than "terrorist".

Given his chosen target, how would you have advised him to avoid civilian casualties while still destroying the Federal building and killing the ATF agents in it?

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The various branches of the IRA sometimes did, and sometimes didn't, attempt to avoid civilian casualties. They also did at times deliberately target civilians. So on balance I think they're a borderline case, but I wouldn't grumble if anyone wanted to call them "terrorist".

Really? In the hundreds of PIRA attacks during the Troubles I can think of only one where you might be able to argue they specifically targeted civilians-- the Remembrance Day bombing. And one could argue that was a case of "collateral damage" as well, given that the primary target was RUC paraders-- all the same, when the loss of civilian life became clear, the PIRA quickly issued apologies for it. It's the one attack almost every top IRA official has no issue condemning.

You seem to be giving state actors (as opposed to rebels) a much wider latitude for the amount of collateral damage they can inflict and still avoid being terrorist-- which is quite common and the reason many people even object to the term being used-- it's almost exclusively used against non-state actors who are consistently held to higher standards of conduct than their state-authorized counterparts.

I think your viewpoint on this is strongly influenced by the idea, pushed by every major social institution from the day we are born, that the nation-state is morally justified in having a monopoly on violence and anyone else who exercises violence is to be held to a higher moral standard than the state.

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Reply #31 - February 22, 2012, 08:16 AM

Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on February 22, 2012, 08:11 AM
Given his chosen target, how would you have advised him to avoid civilian casualties while still destroying the Federal building and killing the ATF agents in it?

Controlled demolition? Yes, I know it's tricky. That's his problem. He's the bugger who wants to blow the thing up.

Quote
Really? In the hundreds of PIRA attacks during the Troubles I can think of only one where you might be able to argue they specifically targeted civilians-- the Remembrance Day bombing. And one could argue that was a case of "collateral damage" as well, given that the primary target was RUC paraders-- all the same, when the loss of civilian life became clear, the PIRA quickly issued apologies for it. It's the one attack almost every top IRA official has no issue condemning.

There were other incidents too, like gunmen from various factions going around pubs, splitting patrons by religion, then shooting the ones they didn't like.

Quote
You seem to be giving state actors (as opposed to rebels) a much wider latitude for the amount of collateral damage they can inflict and still avoid being terrorist-- which is quite common and the reason many people even object to the term being used-- it's almost exclusively used against non-state actors who are consistently held to higher standards of conduct than their state-authorized counterparts.

I think your viewpoint on this is strongly influenced by the idea, pushed by every major social institution from the day we are born, that the nation-state is morally justified in having a monopoly on violence and anyone else who exercises violence is to be held to a higher moral standard than the state.

In democracies I don't think that is such a bad principle.

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Reply #32 - February 22, 2012, 08:30 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 22, 2012, 08:16 AM
Controlled demolition? Yes, I know it's tricky. That's his problem. He's the bugger who wants to blow the thing up.

So when it's the military, we speak of realities on the ground and eschew idealistic scenarios, but when it's an insurgent it's the reverse?

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There were other incidents too, like gunmen from various factions going around pubs, splitting patrons by religion, then shooting the ones they didn't like.

Doubt they were officially sanctioned. If not, bringing them up would be the equivalent of me bringing up war crimes by individual squads and fire teams of the US military to make my point.

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In democracies I don't think that is such a bad principle.

Well, we're discussing the actions of Western militaries, and the US is the biggest, baddest, and most active of them, and I can state with absolute certainty that the US government and its political subdivisions has been abusing that principle at home and abroad for a very, very long time. Then again, I'd dispute the fact we're a democracy. I call it an electoral oligarchy (basically a plutocracy with a few professional politicians and political/corporate operatives at the top, a regular selection process for the politicians, and a few other elements of democracy-- just enough to provide an adequate safety valve).

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Reply #33 - February 22, 2012, 08:39 AM

Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on February 22, 2012, 08:30 AM
So when it's the military, we speak of realities on the ground and eschew idealistic scenarios, but when it's an insurgent it's the reverse?

I'm not the slightest bit concerned if McVeigh or people like him can't blow something up. Sounds fine to me.

However, I have said that I wouldn't classify him as a terrorist as such, and we were talking about terrorists IIRC.

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Doubt they were officially sanctioned.

I have no idea, but somebody obviously approved of them.

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Reply #34 - February 22, 2012, 08:42 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 22, 2012, 08:39 AM
I'm not the slightest bit concerned if McVeigh or people like him can't blow something up. Sounds fine to me.

Quote
However, I have said that I wouldn't classify him as a terrorist as such, and we were talking about terrorists IIRC.

Well yeah, I was just hammering home the point I suppose.

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Reply #35 - February 22, 2012, 08:55 AM

By the way, I'd say the US has a genuine democracy. According to Winston Churchill, democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others. Sounds like the US.

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Reply #36 - February 22, 2012, 08:59 AM

Would you compare it to the 'democracy' of Denmark or the Netherlands?

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Reply #37 - February 22, 2012, 09:02 AM

All I know is when you imprison more people than China, go around bullying weaker nations, have a corporate crime wave that wrecks the economy and your only response is to start attacking already weakened labor unions, your country is no beacon of liberty, democracy and progress to the rest of the world.

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Reply #38 - February 22, 2012, 09:15 AM

It was a joke about "worst government".

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Reply #39 - February 22, 2012, 01:03 PM

Quote
Really? In the hundreds of PIRA attacks during the Troubles I can think of only one where you might be able to argue they specifically targeted civilians-- the Remembrance Day bombing.

The Warrington bomb, the Harrods bomb, the Omagh bomb.

Quote
There were other incidents too, like gunmen from various factions going around pubs, splitting patrons by religion, then shooting the ones they didn't like.

I've never heard of the IRA doing that. I've heard of the UVF and UDA doing it, but not any republican group.

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Reply #40 - February 22, 2012, 01:20 PM

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Raccoon The anarchist: Really? In the hundreds of PIRA attacks during the Troubles I can think of only one where you might be able to argue they specifically targeted civilians-- the Remembrance Day bombing.
Quote from: Cheetah on February 22, 2012, 01:03 PM
The Warrington bomb, the Harrods bomb, the Omagh bomb....

that is it?? only three bombs?? Anarchists need more ..

I.R.A. Apologizes for Civilian Deaths in Its 30-Year Campaign

off course IRA are guys are/were saints if you compare them with Islamic heroes that is/was generated by Islamic organizations such as Taliban, Al qaeda., Egyptian Muslim brothers and many more..

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Reply #41 - February 22, 2012, 02:32 PM

It seems it is a case of 'might is right'.

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Reply #42 - February 22, 2012, 02:52 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 22, 2012, 07:08 AM
what kind of links are those Aphrodite? Do you even know anything about Afghanistan?? Do you know when Taliban ruled Afghanistan?? You are picking news clips way after Taliban gone from the power

1). "Taliban ready to lift ban on girls' schools, says minister"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/13/taliban-lift-ban-girls-schools .. That is 2011..

2). "The Swede Who Convinced Taliban To Allow Girls Schools"
http://www.rferl.org/content/swede_who_convinced_taliban_to_allow_girls_schools/24454456.html .. That is 2012

Gone from power? They control most of the country. The first link is from 2011, the second is about an aid worker who spent decades in Afghanistan--before and during Taliban rule in the 90s, so no its not 2012. Try reading it before commenting.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 22, 2012, 07:08 AM
Again that case of Aisha was from 2010., Indeed her nose and ears were cut of by Taliban ROGUE who happened buy her from her father.. What is your point?? I hope you know what Taliban Movement was and how it started in Land of Pure with American Pure dollars and American weapons, And you should also know that he Taliban Islamist political group of Afghanistan as an Islamic rule of Afghanistan from September 1996 until October 2001...

And Taliban are your heroes? .. Hmm good know that..

Umm no. Her husband cut her nose and ears off in 2007. Her neighbours took her to hospital. Nothing to do with the Taliban--accept it.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/08/29/is-time-s-aisha-story-fake.html

I wouldn't use the term "heroes" but I think anyone (regardless of their ideology) willing to stand up to wannabe colonisers deserve some credit.
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Reply #43 - February 22, 2012, 02:56 PM

''I wouldn't use the term "heroes" but I think anyone (regardless of their ideology) willing to stand up to wannabe colonisers deserve some credit.''

I don't know-I'm not for 'wannabe colonisers', but would you really extend your support to anyone standing up to them (including neo-nazis and other dispicable ideologues?

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Reply #44 - February 22, 2012, 03:01 PM

If someone invaded your country and you wanted to take up arms to defend it, would you suddenly decide against doing so because there are xenophobic, racist bigots defending your country too? I'd fight alongside them even though I'd hate everything they stand for.
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Reply #45 - February 22, 2012, 03:09 PM

I'm not really that tied down to a country-it would depend on who was 'invading' and why. Obviously most invasions are far from benevolent, but right now I'd support any invasion from the Turkish government in order to topple Assad-that's a small example.

In a hypothetical scenario where a country had invaded mine for more sinister purposes, I wouldn't fight anyway, too many armchair soldiers on the net will say that they would step up and grab a gun (I'm not saying anything about you btw just in general) but not as many would go for it. Like I said, I'm not that committed to a country, I'm more committed to the survival and welfare of my family, so I wouldn't fight, but if I had to, I would do anything but join those with dispacable views and I would probably do my own fighting.

It's not about being selective or snobby, but you have to consider that you are giving moral support to those who would deny your right to freedom afterwards-just ask anyone who came from Iran and tried to topple the shah, Afghanistan is another good example.

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Reply #46 - February 22, 2012, 03:26 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on February 22, 2012, 03:01 PM
If someone invaded your country and you wanted to take up arms to defend it, would you suddenly decide against doing so because there are xenophobic, racist bigots defending your country too? I'd fight alongside them even though I'd hate everything they stand for.

Who invading whose country Aphrodite??
Russians invading Afghanistan?
Pakistan invading Afghanistan for the sake of depth against Indians through Mosques, money from Americans and international Islamic heroes like Osama?
American invading Afghanistan for all the terror plots and terror against Americans and there interests that come out of the borders of Afghanistan/Pakistan ??

Who invaded??

Quote from: Aphrodite on February 22, 2012, 02:52 PM
Gone from power? They control most of the country. The first link is from 2011, the second is about an aid worker who spent decades in Afghanistan--before and during Taliban rule in the 90s, so no its not 2012. Try reading it before commenting.

Umm no. Her husband cut her nose and ears off in 2007. Her neighbours took her to hospital. Nothing to do with the Taliban--accept it.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/08/29/is-time-s-aisha-story-fake.html

Hmm case by case.. Let us separate that swede from Aisha husband A TALIBAN BRUTE and his brothers cutting her nose...

Now give me the original link on that story from 2007., not from my good friend from downtown Karachi Abdulhadi Hairan of Present Raw/RAWA controllers ., Again Taliban ruled Afghanistan from from September 1996 until October 2001..

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Reply #47 - February 22, 2012, 05:44 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on February 22, 2012, 01:03 PM
The Warrington bomb, the Harrods bomb, the Omagh bomb.

Warrington bomb only killed 2 people, and a warning was sent ahead of time, even if it arguably wasn't long enough ahead of time. Harrods bomb warning was also given and 3 of the 6 victims were cops. In both cases, destruction of property/disruption was the primary goal, not civilian casualties. Omagh bomb was RIRA. I was not counting RIRA or CIRA attacks (cause I never mentioned them), just PIRA and INLA.

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Reply #48 - February 22, 2012, 05:58 PM

I don't buy that explanation about the Warrington bomb. If their primary goal was destruction of property they could have set those bombs of in the early hours of a Tuesday morning or something. They chose a Saturday afternoon with the place full of shoppers, and gave a late and misleading warning.

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Reply #49 - February 22, 2012, 06:04 PM

Assuming that's true (and assuming that's true for the Harrods bomb as well), that's still a total of 3 attacks out of hundreds, and in the case of the Warrington and Harrods bombings, the loss to civilian life minimal. Hardly qualifies as "consistent use of terrorist tactics" as os defines "terrorist tactics", which was my whole point. Terrorist is simply a epithet used to describe insurgents by the states who oppose them, and the public institutions of those states. The term terrorist may indeed have objective meaning, but that meaning is more frequently than not ignored in favor of the person's political perspective using the term.

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Reply #50 - February 22, 2012, 06:12 PM

Yes, it can be a loaded and misused term, but that doesn't mean it should never be used. A terrorist IMO is any person who aims to subvert the rule of law by violence or the threat of it. By that definition the IRA were terrorists, although I'm not sure the Taliban are. I hate the Taliban, but I'm not sure they qualify as terrorists, more like one side in a barely contained civil war which will no doubt cease to be contained as soon as NATO troops leave.

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Reply #51 - February 22, 2012, 06:44 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on February 22, 2012, 06:12 PM
A terrorist IMO is any person who aims to subvert the rule of law by violence or the threat of it.

This definition would make all armed rebel organizations "terrorists" including the IRA (pre-1921) and the Continental Congress and its military. So you think we both live in countries founded by terrorists and established through terrorism?

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Reply #52 - February 22, 2012, 06:53 PM

The IRA were responsible for the deaths of over 600 civilians

Cited here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army#cite_note-8

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Reply #53 - February 22, 2012, 06:55 PM

Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on February 22, 2012, 06:44 PM
This definition would make all armed rebel organizations "terrorists" including the IRA (pre-1921) and the Continental Congress and its military. So you think we both live in countries founded by terrorists and established through terrorism?

Yep. And you can throw Israel in for good measure.

However a nation founded by terrorism isn't necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on the quality of the rule of law they were subverting. Its a finer judgement than just terrorist=bad, insurgency=good. Like I said, I hate the Taliban but I wouldn't really count them as terrorists.

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Reply #54 - February 22, 2012, 07:01 PM

Quote from: billy on February 22, 2012, 06:53 PM
The IRA were responsible for the deaths of over 600 civilians

Cited here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army#cite_note-8

Thank you for your citation of a source I can in no way verify. When it comes to casualty numbers from conflicts like these I don't trust them without having a sense of the methodology used-- the numbers tend to fluctuate wildly based on the political leanings of the source.

In other words, if I don't know how and in what attacks these people died, that number is useless to me.

Quote from: Cheetah on February 22, 2012, 06:55 PM
Yep. And you can throw Israel in for good measure.

However a nation founded by terrorism isn't necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on the quality of the rule of law they were subverting. Its a finer judgement than just terrorist=bad, insurgency=good. Like I said, I hate the Taliban but I wouldn't really count them as terrorists.

Interesting perspective. That's one I hadn't heard before. Okay, fair nuff.

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Reply #55 - February 22, 2012, 07:07 PM

What you guys are ranting about go make a folder on England-Scotland-Ireland

Go learn some history.. Those guys are fighting since 13th century., You guys are comparing that with Americans and their soldiers burning Quran in Afghanistan in 2012 because they don't know how to dispose 1000s of Arabic Qurans in a house they occupied from Allaho hoo akbbaaaaar talib??

Stop writing about England-Scotland-Ireland here and kill the thread,,

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Reply #56 - February 22, 2012, 07:17 PM

Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on February 22, 2012, 07:01 PM
Thank you for your citation of a source I can in no way verify. When it comes to casualty numbers from conflicts like these I don't trust them without having a sense of the methodology used-- the numbers tend to fluctuate wildly based on the political leanings of the source.

The source is pretty much the definitive, universally accepted chronicle of every death of the Northern Ireland conflict, detailing each killing, from every side, Republican and Unionist, giving a biography of each victim, and done neutrally.

Quote
For almost twenty years Malcolm Sutton has been recording the details of every death arising from the present conflict in Ireland. He has collected newspaper cuttings, observed funerals, checked coroners' court records, visited cemetries and studied books and pamphlets. He has painstakingly verified the personal details of victims, the organisations responsible for the killings and the circumstances in which the deaths occurred.

Quote
Of the total deaths, 3,271 have occurred in Northern Ireland, 115 in the Irish Republic, 125 in Britain, and 18 elsewhere in Europe. Republican groups have been responsible for 2,060 of the deaths, Loyalist groups for 1,016, British Forces for 363, and the Irish Republic’s Forces for 5. For the remaining 85 deaths, it has not been possible or appropriate to identify the killing group.

http://www.cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/book/index.html

Unionist and Republican groups both carried out atrocities as did the British army on occasion.

The most generous thing you can say for the para-military groups of Ulster is that they were culpable for the deaths of innocents through general indifference and a calculus of 'acceptable cost' in their strategy.

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Reply #57 - February 22, 2012, 07:19 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 22, 2012, 07:07 PM
What you guys are ranting about go make a folder on England-Scotland-Ireland

(Clicky for piccy!)

You know there are actually Cornish separatists who say that Cornwall is a separate nation from England.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #58 - February 22, 2012, 08:55 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on February 22, 2012, 01:03 PM
I've never heard of the IRA doing that. I've heard of the UVF and UDA doing it, but not any republican group.

Ok. I couldn't remember the details of who was involved.

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Reply #59 - February 22, 2012, 08:56 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on February 22, 2012, 02:52 PM
I wouldn't use the term "heroes" but I think anyone (regardless of their ideology) willing to stand up to wannabe colonisers deserve some credit.

Try being accurate when describing a situation. Ranting about colonisation is far from accurate.

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