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 Topic: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?

 (Read 13264 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     OP - February 11, 2012, 12:18 AM

    I know its unusual for me to ask this but I consider myself an open-minded person. I have looked at this website for quite sometime now and I love for people to talk to me about Islam. If I cannot answer your questions proving Islam is right then I might leave it.

    If you cannot answer my questions then I might have something here with my religion.

    Please answer my questions starting with question 1:

    Why did you leave Islam when this religion seems so vast in terms of content? It's not just the mainstream Sunni Islam. There are also Shia, Sufi, Ahmedi sects you could see before you guys made your decision to leave Islam. Why did you just leave this religion out of the blue?

    Once again, I hope I don't offend anyone by asking this question and more to come. I just am genuinely curious about Ex-Muslims.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #1 - February 11, 2012, 12:52 AM

    Welcome.

    Actually a few people here did go from one sect to another (sometimes several) before apostating, and we have ex-Muslims here who were Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi, and Sufi.

    I'll let them explain more.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #2 - February 11, 2012, 01:19 AM

    Only a half-witted Anglican would leave Christianity without giving Mormonism a try.


    I almost missed out an 'm' there.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #3 - February 11, 2012, 01:43 AM

    i dont think anyone left this religion out of the blue. you should read people's intros in the intro section to get a better idea.

    Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense. - Voltaire
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #4 - February 11, 2012, 01:48 AM

    I know its unusual for me to ask this but I consider myself an open-minded person. I have looked at this website for quite sometime now and I love for people to talk to me about Islam. If I cannot answer your questions proving Islam is right then I might leave it.

    If you cannot answer my questions then I might have something here with my religion.

    Please answer my questions starting with question 1:

    Why did you leave Islam when this religion seems so vast in terms of content? It's not just the mainstream Sunni Islam. There are also Shia, Sufi, Ahmedi sects you could see before you guys made your decision to leave Islam. Why did you just leave this religion out of the blue?

    Once again, I hope I don't offend anyone by asking this question and more to come. I just am genuinely curious about Ex-Muslims.


    how are you doing Muslimman?  glad you are reading cemb for a long time.. True Islam has many sects., in fact if you have read Islamic scriptures, I mean Quran and hadith (Sahih Muslim), you know well all people are born as Muslim.  So all people here are Muslims.. They just don't know that they are Muslims.. Do not worry about them., don't worry about guys asking you questions about Islam.,

    So tell me what is good about Islam that you can not find in other religions??  and what is good about any religions that you can not live with out a blind belief??

    Hmm this is a good one  to watch..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=pBzkYx8c4SI

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #5 - February 11, 2012, 01:59 AM

     Smiley
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #6 - February 11, 2012, 03:23 AM

    I know its unusual for me to ask this but I consider myself an open-minded person. I have looked at this website for quite sometime now and I love for people to talk to me about Islam. If I cannot answer your questions proving Islam is right then I might leave it.

    If you cannot answer my questions then I might have something here with my religion.

    Please answer my questions starting with question 1:

    Why did you leave Islam when this religion seems so vast in terms of content? It's not just the mainstream Sunni Islam. There are also Shia, Sufi, Ahmedi sects you could see before you guys made your decision to leave Islam. Why did you just leave this religion out of the blue?

    Once again, I hope I don't offend anyone by asking this question and more to come. I just am genuinely curious about Ex-Muslims.


    I try to be rational and pragmatic all the time. It seemed rational to believe Islam was the truth as a Muslim, and now it doesn't. Yes, Islam is vast in terms of content but that does not necessarily mean that it means it is the true religion. Infact from my perspective sects are a weakness of Islam as the Qur'an that is said to be perfect and unchanged can be interpretted in so many different ways, all of these sects can arise.

    It was at the core that I found problems with Islam though. I started thinking about questions such as "Where does a person go if they've only heard about Islam through a biased source and dismissed it? Would it be fair to send that person to hell for all eternity even if they lived a good life?", "Isn't it common sense that the majority of the world would bow down to god if they truely knew he was there? In that case why did Allah do such a bad job" and "Why do some meet to criteria for heaven easier than others?" When I looked at my personal reasons for believing in Allah I found them to be based on personal experience, Science and prohpecies in the Qur'an and Hadith and simple philosophical arguements. My personal experience I realised was too biased, yes I know all experience is biased in some form but I clearly knew where I had gone wrong in interpreting my past experience. I experienced things such as sleep paralysis and just the day after experiencing it I saw a sheikh talking about how some jinn can come and bother you in sleep. It felt like god was telling me how to get rid of the jinns, until I realised it was a well known medical condition. Science and prophecies in the Qur'an and Hadith IMO turned out to be linguistic tricks performed on certain verses that popular speakers would claim was refering to some part of modern science and even if the Qur'an is refering to some particular scientific fact, that fact could be falsified. Finally arguements for god such as the watchmaker arguement, are just too niave. My position on God is simply that we can't know, given that we can't know it would be unfair for an abrahamic God to exist whom promises punishment for all the unbelievers.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #7 - February 11, 2012, 04:14 AM

    welcome to our forum Smiley

    Let me ask you a hypothetical question:

    As you know, it wont be long before private passengers will
    be able to regularly go into outer space (several have already
    done so).

    You are on one of these shuttles.  Tell me... in which direction
    would you pray, and since you no longer will be in any particular
    time zone, at what time would you pray?

    My point is, everything in islam is based on the planet earth,
    its directions and known knowledge of the time.  To include the sun not
    only revolving around the earth, but also sets in the mud.  Doesnt that cause
    anything unsettling with you? 

    We see the breath taking photographs from the hubble telescope, and learn
    about the millions/billions of galaxies out there.  And we are supposed to
    believe the earth is held up with some pillars like on a bed?

    Islam is outdated as is all the abrahamic faiths.  I am not impressed
    with a tomato, calf, or anything else that APPEARS to have arabic
    "Allah" written on them.  Im pretty sure eskimos or the remote tribes in
    south america would be not very impressed. 

    also, the fact I cannot even pray in my own tongue, but have to parrot
    everything in arabic whether  i understand it or not doesnt make any
    sense AT ALL!

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #8 - February 11, 2012, 06:31 AM

    i dont think anyone left this religion out of the blue. you should read people's intros in the intro section to get a better idea.


    This

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #9 - February 11, 2012, 06:38 AM

    Welcome muslimman

    Why did you leave Islam when this religion seems so vast in terms of content? It's not just the mainstream Sunni Islam. There are also Shia, Sufi, Ahmedi sects you could see before you guys made your decision to leave Islam. Why did you just leave this religion out of the blue?


    no matter which sect you go with ....... you have to believe that billions of your fellow human beings will be roasting in hell eternally just for one reason that they believed in some wrong thing ...........and few of us will enjoy heaven as we are on right path following a 7th century arab who went to cave and god who is all powerful talked to him in secret to convey his message....and those how disagreed with him will be tortured in fire forever and there will be no end to their torture.........

    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #10 - February 11, 2012, 06:47 AM

    (I can't be bothered to tidy it up, but here's one I made earlier):

    I think the mistake you make is to call it a switch. There are many reasons to leave a religion. There are many reasons to disbelieve in gods. Doing either doesn't necessarily mean one will jump straight into bed with a replacement. It can also be liberating life experience. It doesn't have to leave a religion shaped hole that needs filling - it can set you free to just explore yourself and the universe and take it as it comes. Some people don’t even have emotional attachments, instead having practical attachments. Some want or need neither. Both these kind of attachments can be replaced. But you’re not going to put much thought into finding a replacement if they are still holding your attention.

    Islam never really held my attention. I always found myself out of synch with it. Praying was boring, fasting was uncomfortable, the structured ruleset was frustrating me, curiosity was met with trite answers that left me unsatisfied, and the divine directives didn’t sit right with me, and I saw the injustices and didn't like them, not only to myself but to others, long before I actually did any reading or investigation into the rationale of how things came to be this way for me. So I wouldn’t describe it as emotional. I think it was a practical, sensual thing - it smelled like bullshit. I was an unbeliever even before I realised what one was, simply by practical deduction. There was no “Eureka!” moment. There was no BOOM! I am an Atheist! It was a complete non-event - the end of an organic, gradual process. The result of largely an unconscious effort.

    Some people are just not born to be Muslim. Some people have a wilder lust for the world and an animal ‘fear of the trap’ that makes resistance to systems of life like Islam part of their very being. And it's maybe more typical of adolescence than adulthood. Maybe I got out just in time, before I made a terrible compromise to my existence. I can’t really speak for emotional attachments in this case, but I can maybe explain why Islam is not even remotely attractive to me except maybe as a chew toy when I’m bored.

    First, the theological claims of Islam have been proven to be false, again and again, by people much more informed and eloquent than I. Simply by its own internal inconsistencies and fallacies as a work of literature, the Qur’an is self-refuting. Any theist with a modicum of self-respect has to concede that it was ‘just metaphor and parable’ in order to reconcile it with reality and in order to be accepted as marginally sensible in a modern adult world.

    Taken at face value, without bias, the Qur’an is profoundly lacking in substance. As a work of literature, its terrible. Poorly written, poorly structured, uncannily resembling the blissfully ignorant views of the men of that time.This is a fact: it has been outshined, outclassed, outmatched by superior written works. And it makes matters worse for itself by being such an arrogant work. Making bold claims of perfection, challenging its reader to find better. Well, guess what? I found better, and I didn’t even have to look very hard at all. Maybe millennia ago, when books were simply not available, it stood out as the bestest fresh and relevant thing to hand, but what are people’s excuses these days? You can walk into any library or bookshop and take a random book off the shelf and prove this point: the Qur’an has not stood the test of time.

    Subjective? Perhaps. But when you consider the vast majority of Muslims have not even read the Qur’an anyway and claim to be an authority on it, and when you consider that many of the ones who do actually investigate their own scripture, blatantly lie and squirm about massive sections of its content when they are cornered about it, I think I’ve got a pretty good case. Hence why so many Muslim careers have been made on pseudo-philosophy and bunk science, trying to find or manufacture hidden meanings behind drained, worn-out lines of rotting text that are demonstrably defunct, and we end up with the so-called Miracles of the Qur’an and various strained numerological attempts and desperate pattern seeking. It’s all so forced and contrived - a sad and pitiful attempt to keep the Qur’an relevant in a world that has already moved on.

    On to the mythology. I love a good myth. I love a good story - big, larger than life characters, heroes and villains, champions and monsters, honour, bravery, tragedy, deceit, epic sagas, swashbuckling human drama - good old fashioned storytelling. What the authors of the Qur’an have managed to do, in the process of plagiarising and cannibalising every tradition that came before, is to ruin great myths. And its biggest crime is surgically removing any modicum of humour from them. Sterilising them to fit in with The Plan. It has a complete inability to laugh at itself. Islam is where great myths go to die. It’s a graveyard of broken myths. One seeking true adventure would do well to follow the trail of breadcrumbs back to the originals it has stolen from. See for yourself the hatchet job those ham-fisted bastards did.

    What about philosophy? Here is what I can write about the philosophy of Islam: Nothing. There isn’t anything to go on. Islam is philosophically sterile. It’s almost as though philosophy didn’t even exist as a concept hundreds of years earlier, almost like Islam evolved in a philosophical vacuum. The measure of its failings is illustrated when any analysis of Islam has to be cross referenced with superior works, some even older. It’s almost funny. What a pathetic, infantile stab in the dark at philosophy Islam offers us. What kind of unfortunate and simplistic proto-mind can be satisfied by it? What appetite do I have that otherwise intelligent and respectable Muslims do not? It is a mystery to me.

    Belief in Islam takes so much from you. Yes, it takes from you, and gives back nothing you can’t drink elsewhere from cleaner streams. You’re diving for pearls in poisoned waters. It traps Muslims in a rigid spiritual prison. A good, subservient, observant Muslim has their spiritual journey restricted by the ruleset of Islam. It is not only restricted, but ruthlessly policed by an all seeing eye. There is the overbearing knowledge that you will be judged according to a specific and set standard. You are held back. You are compelled in some cases to fight against your own good conscience, do things no good person should do, for no other reason than: it says so in a book I think is awesome. Like the wise man Jason Bourne once said, “Do you even know why you’re supposed to kill me? Look at what they make you give.”

    As an institution, Islam is systematically responsible for some of the worst human rights violations in the world. It is no coincidence. These things don’t just happen to be occurring in Muslim nations. These are the directives of Islam, the divine will of a fantasy war god that ancient clerics and superstitionists decided to name “Allah”. These things are the cornerstones of its tradition - subdue, suppress, assert, aggress, spread, dehumanise opposition, demonise dissent, sustained by the unwavering faith in the ascendancy and supremacy of the chosen. This is not something I even want to believe in, support, or swear allegiance to, even if it were miraculously and irrefutably revealed to be true. Even if I did believe in the existence of a god resembling the different Abrahamic brands of the One True God™, I’d distance myself from the ponzie scheme as a matter of principle. It is not a choice of belief or disbelief - it is a choice of being a good person or being a good Muslim.

    Ultimately, I was faced with that choice of being a good person or being a good Muslim. A human being cannot be both in my eyes. These two things are at opposite ends of the scale for me. To be an obedient, observant Muslim, you must sacrifice your humanity. You must surrender to a divine will, swear honest fealty to it, without doubt, without questioning. To be a good person you must not only renounce many of the central tenets of Islam, but you must also openly oppose them, wherever they manifest in the world. Then, and only then, can you claim to be a human with me. Or, you can compromise - live some kind of half-life, a contradictory creature, torn between faith and your own conscience, drifting this way and that amid your own confused and unbalanced inner equilibrium - fooling yourself that you are free, and valued, and precious to non-existent higher power. You can pretend that you love an unlovable god, pretend that such a hateful god could ever love you, try to salvage some validation and purpose, some salvation from a book that gives you a little and then takes a lot more, and all the time harbouring a self-loathing, a deep rooted knowledge that you are a slave to that same higher power, with your mind shackled and your heart held back from true human interaction, under his ever-present gaze and scrutiny. That’s no life for me. That isn’t living.

    I reject Islam wholeheartedly. I made my choice. I chose to try and be a good person instead of trying to be a good Muslim. The main symptom of doing so was feeling the weight lift off as each and every facet of Islam fell away from me. I have learned I no longer have to surrender my body, mind and soul to the god of the Prophet’s desires, dreams and delusions, and I have realised that I wont be punished for imaginary crimes in an imaginary afterlife if I choose not to surrender. The more I learned about the Prophet, the more I found him repulsive, even for a man of his time. The more I pulled away from that hideous Abrahamic concept of a supreme ‘one-god’, the more alive and vital I was in this gorgeous universe. I was free to be me, the person inside, perfect with all my flaws, comfortable in my own skin, no longer a mind-slave to the dark age ideologies imagined up by sadistic and insane monsters of history, no longer led along by the nose like cattle, no longer living according to the dogma spelled out by long-dead fools whose ideas belong in the graveyard of failed human endeavours, throwbacks to the infancy of our species. The umbilical cord that holds back the ascendancy and mastery of our own spirits and minds must be cut. We’ve crawled along on our belly for too long under religion. We should be walking on our own by now, running by now. We could even be flying by now.

    There are better role models in this beautiful world than the so-called Prophet. There are better contributions to the world than the cancerous, poisoned chalice known as the Quran. There are better wisdoms out there to find, to add to your own spiritual alchemy, better philosophies, better revelations, better discoveries, better poetic and artistic expression, better hopes and dreams to be had, better love and passions, a much richer, fuller existence - all eclipsed while you are under the black cloud of Islam. I almost hate Islam for the life it denied me for so long, never knowing my potential as a member of the human race. I know that potential now. I can taste it, feel it, appreciate it like never before. I penetrated that black cloud like the chick breaking out of the egg. It was like opening my eyes for the first time to a whole new alphabet of feeling and emotion. Like seeing in colour after a lifetime of black and white.

    I’ll never go back. Never. I would be a fool to. I’ve shed my skin already. My journey has only just begun, my journey of life, with new blood running through me, new verve, new growth, new days, and new hope for the first time - true, tangible hope and possibilities. And with Islam in my rear-view mirror, I have no regrets. This journey of life I am forever grateful for, and I can’t begin to describe how excited I am. I can only show those close to me, making the journey with me. And to those who accept me for who I am, and what I am, I will share myself, naked, unashamed, with arms wide open.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #11 - February 11, 2012, 08:55 AM

    I know its unusual for me to ask this but I consider myself an open-minded person. I have looked at this website for quite sometime now and I love for people to talk to me about Islam. If I cannot answer your questions proving Islam is right then I might leave it.

    If you cannot answer my questions then I might have something here with my religion.

    Please answer my questions starting with question 1:

    Why did you leave Islam when this religion seems so vast in terms of content? It's not just the mainstream Sunni Islam. There are also Shia, Sufi, Ahmedi sects you could see before you guys made your decision to leave Islam. Why did you just leave this religion out of the blue?

    Once again, I hope I don't offend anyone by asking this question and more to come. I just am genuinely curious about Ex-Muslims.





    Salam Muslimman,

    I started out as a 'Sufi' then dabbled with 'Salafism' and finally ended up as a 'Secularist' before succumbing to apostasy.  The actual diversity of Islam, and that of religion, pointed out the elephant in the room - there is no conclusive evidence for any of the world's faiths for that's all it is, faith. For Islam to be the 'truth' then I should be able to convince others , and more importantly myself, that the Quran is the word of 'God'.

    Every time I tried preaching it I couldn't cite a single reference which would 'clinch the deal', I felt like a senile salesman trying to flog a dead horse whilst wishing I had a better 'product' i.e perhaps Allah could have cited the Dinosaurs or the age of the Earth in the Quran, anything which proved unequivocally that someone 'divine' was the author of Islam's holy book.  . Eventually I gave up, for I knew - subconsciously out of fear of rejecting Islam - questioning Allah's wisdom was a misnomer, for he was Al Hakim.  So I soon went on the defensive, trying to mitigate the bad publicity Muslims were pelted with on a daily basis.

    It was through these hostile discussions with no holds barred that gave me the tools to clean the wall and see the writing on it: Mohammed wasn't the perfect example for mankind and the God of Islam had failed his followers by not preserving the 'message'. I managed to dust of my critical reasoning - hitherto applied to everything else in life apart from Islam -  by discovering the Prophet's sexual exploits - principally the rape of slaves. For I - and many others -  in the modern world never consider owning a person let alone molest them for your own gratification. This lead to the inevitable realisation that Allah hasn't endowed Muslims with a 'message' that will stand them in good stead : Why did he allow false stories to be disseminated about his 'Messenger' - I tried to justify the patent immorality in Islam by rejecting the incriminating Hadiths - so as to justify theocracies and all the evil that it entails i.e stoning and misogyny. I felt like a husband making love to his wife in order to start a family but using a condom out of fear of getting an STD, satisfied but pointless.  Again I was questioning the wisdom of Allah but now I've crossed a Rubicon, my perception was no longer disabled by unbounded loyalty and love for something that I  has given me so much. Soon the search for the answers to these 'forbidden' questions reached a climax when I wondered why should I stay in a relationship that was based lies.



  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #12 - February 11, 2012, 09:42 AM

    Like seeing in colour after a lifetime of black and white.


    Jesus Christ, that's so true.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #13 - February 11, 2012, 11:14 AM

    i did not came out of islam out of the blue, unless i'm wrong, the quran was seen as the word of Allah by any sect, i believe. firstly, it was about the angles and demon in the quran that planted the seed of doubt, then it was about faithfreedom.org which confirms me as an apostate and now, i simply cannot come to terms that there is a perfect being that exist with all the suffering, war and the fact that he created the devil to do evil in the first place, isn't it an irony? I now personally think that for a universe to exist with an observer, with all of the suffering and crime, the observer is not perfect.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #14 - February 11, 2012, 11:22 AM

    Wow!! I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you guys made wonderful, profound replies to my questions. Especially Ishina and 247read.

    Before I try to answer any of your queries, let me give you a little information about myself.

    I am an American of Pakistani descent. Born and raised in America. I have read and seen how all of the Muslim countries have their problems exacerbated by the degree of Islam present in the region.

    I am also purportedly a Syed (A descendant of Prophet Muhammad through his daughter Fatima) which makes it really difficult to leave Islam because its been a part of my culture for so long. Now I know that people fake being Syeds for social reasons, but I come a Shia/Sunni background and we have a genealogy book that tells me where I am in the descendants of Prophet Muhammad. Also, if it wasn't for Islam, my paternal grandparents would have stayed in India instead of Pakistan during the partition of India. So for me, even if I have doubts about Islam from time to time, I still feel like I don't want it to leave because its been part of my culture for so long.


    Before coming to this forum I was banned by Ummahforums and Sunniforums for asking too many questions after having my doubts on Islam and particularly about Muslims. For example, how is it that Muslims can mobilize themselves and protest when it comes to a cartoon of the Prophet or Salman Rushdie's knighthood, but they could not do the same when it comes to condemning Islamic terrorism worldwide? So I really appreciate that I can have a calm, rational conversation with you people.

    Now I will try to reply to any questions that I have seen in my page:

    @yeezevee: You've asked "What is good about Islam that you cannot find in other religions?". Well I agree with you that there is no one faith that supersedes all others in terms of being good, doing the right thing, doing charity etc. I am not in Islam looking for truth or morals. I am just here because this is my family religion.


    You've asked me: "And what is good about any religions that you cannot live without a blind belief?"

    Religion provides me with a false sense of certainty to prevent me from asking the deeper questions about life. Now I know this sounds stupid because it is. But thinking about "Why am I here?" or "Where am I going?" or "What will happen to me when I die?" are questions I don't want to think about. I guess religion takes care of those problems while I focus on the real world and its problems.

    By the way, I already watched the video by Lawrence Krauss a while back. He's awesome!!!

    @zooby: You have said that Islam having sects is a big weakness. That's true, but that depends on your frame of reference. To people, in general, belonging to one sect of Islam, they don't think they are in a sect. They think that there is only one path to Islam and a bunch of other people deviated from that path. Whereas the people who do not belong to that one sect of Islam think that the person who does is wrong and should be killed.

    It's all a matter of perspective. People who belong to a sect, don't think they are in a sect.

    You've also asked: "Where does a person go if they've only heard about Islam through a biased source and dismissed it?"

    Well, seeing as how as the Quran states (somewhere in Surah Nisa) that God doesn't commit a single iota of injustice to his creation(I'm paraphrasing here), I doubt that God would be an idiot and send a person to hell just because he didn't hear the message of Islam properly or through biased source.

    I also agree with you that it would be stupid to send non-believers who are good people into hell simply because they were non-believers. I think the verses in the Quran concerning hell for unbelievers (Mushriks and Ahl-e-kitab) were for a particular context in Muslim history. If what Jews and Christians and Mushriks did 1400 years ago, should affect those same groups of people today then that's stupid, in my opinion. Especially if the non-believers are good people who are following what's morally right in Islam like doing good.

    You've also asked: ("Isn't it common sense that the majority of the world would bow down to god if they truely knew he was there? In that case why did Allah do such a bad job" and "Why do some meet to criteria for heaven easier than others?")

    I really don't think that God would be that unjust. Maybe I just have better faith in God being good than most other Muslims. I just a common sense view of God or Allah than most Muslims I see.

    Questions by Jinn And Tonic(Are you from the Jinnandtonicshow?):Everything in islam is based on the planet earth,
    its directions and known knowledge of the time.  To include the sun not
    only revolving around the earth, but also sets in the mud.  Doesnt that cause
    anything unsettling with you?  


    I think that the sun setting on the mud was a translation error on the part of Abdullah Yusuf Ali. The reason I think why the Quran doesn't mention things that weren't available at that time was because He was talking to Arabs.

    Imagine if you were a human and you were given the ability to speak to ants. You wouldn't tell them about the string theory or the universe. You would start small. You would talk about the ant's environment before moving on to cities outside of the environment and the countries and the continents etc. Similarly, the reason why I think the Quran appears to be geocentric is because the Arabs would not have understood anything at that time that would be beyond the reach of Arabia. God had to talk to them using images and religions that they already knew.

    Hope that's a satisfactory answer, because I have a bad feeling that it wasn't.


    You've also said: "I am not impressed
    with a tomato, calf, or anything else that APPEARS to have arabic
    "Allah" written on them."

    I would say same here brother. You are just projecting an image that is biased at that point. I am sure that a Christian, a Jew, or an Atheist would have seen something different that what the Muslim was seeing.


    @Azdaha ExMuslim: Hell is a very unsettling concept for me to handle as well. That's why I don't think the Quran is very stagnant when it comes to the concept of Hell. When hell is described in the Quran, it's never the same details. It's usually based on whatever happened in Mecca and Medina at that time. So based on that, I am not sure that God would make hell eternal in 2012 because times have changed. People are not moral because they happen to follow the religion of their forefathers. Their moral because that is how they want to be treated.

    @Ishina: I really enjoyed your long response. It made me a think a lot about how Islam negatively affects Muslim's lives especially in Britain or the States.

    As far as the supposed miracles of the Quran are concerned, I don't really believe in them. The Quran was not supposed to be used a miracle pointing to God. People like Hamza Andreas Tzortzis and Adnan Rashid are just plain opportunists trying to make money on miracles that are purported to be in the Quran.

    However, I disagree when it comes to you not liking the Quran's stories of Prophets. What about Surah Yusuf or the allegory of Moses and Khidr. They seem to be really good stories and have some good lessons for me at least.

    @247read: I don't think the Prophet was to be the best example for all times. Maybe for his but I am not sure for all times to come. Because let's face it, science and technology are changing rapidly. As a result, morality has to accommodate the changes that accompany the times we live in. There is no such thing as objective morality. I wish more Muslims would realize that.


    @li: I would make the old "people have free will to do what they want" argument and people can do good things and commit terrible atrocities, but I am sure you've already heard this by now.


    Anyways, I know I probably didn't satisfy everyone's queries. But I do hope that I can engage in more dialogue with people on this forum. Even though most of you are either Agnostic or Atheist, I feel like I have more in common with you than most Muslims I see.

    Thanks for hearing me out. Looking forward to your replies.

    Peace Roll Eyes
     
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #15 - February 11, 2012, 11:36 AM

    i have never been a Muslim. I became interested in Islam because of the amazingly ambitious claims of the scientific miracle seekers.

    Anyway, you said "Before coming to this forum I was banned by Ummahforums and Sunniforums for asking too many questions after having my doubts on Islam".

    This is one of the reasons that I am sure that Islam is not true.  Judging by their hostility to, and fear of, questions and challenges, I feel like Muslims themselves don't really believe Islam. Their faith must be so fragile. I think that subconciously perhaps, they do know it doesn't make much sense.

    Another reason why I find Islam hard to believe is the incredible desperation and dishonesty that is presented in the form of dawah. If Islam were true, Muslims would not have to rely on desperate lies (about the science for example).

    I feel that muslims are so desperate to convert people to Islam because it makes them feel more sure of their own beliefs. It is just another example of Muslims trying to convince themselves that Islam is true. 
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #16 - February 11, 2012, 11:36 AM

    Regarding Moses and Khidr, I dislike that story because of two things: 1. It implies that it's a bad thing to be curious, skeptical and ask questions, 2. They kill a kid because he's a kaafir and his parents are not!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #17 - February 11, 2012, 11:42 AM

    .
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #18 - February 11, 2012, 11:47 AM

    I didn't interpret the story of Moses and Khidr that way. I just thought that the story was about the idea that although something seems gruesome at first there is a rational answer for it later on that you might not be looking at properly. That life might make sense as times goes on, even if you don't understand the suffering that is happening right now.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #19 - February 11, 2012, 12:22 PM


    @247read: I don't think the Prophet was to be the best example for all times. Maybe for his but I am not sure for all times to come. Because let's face it, science and technology are changing rapidly. As a result, morality has to accommodate the changes that accompany the times we live in. There is no such thing as objective morality. I wish more Muslims would realize that.




    Fair enough, though I too had used a similar explanation to vindicate Mohammed - he was a product of his time - but his deplorable deeds just exposed the irrationality behind the whole concept of 'religion' and how futile it is when 'God' , conveniently, stopped sending 'Messengers' 1,400 years ago so as to avoid his more learned creation verifying - with scientific reasoning -  the divinity claims.

    I understand your reluctance to abandon Islam, I have yet to openly declare my apostasy - can't see ever doing so in the future, to be honest - and I still try to live a Muslim life - I don't drink, smoke and etc.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #20 - February 11, 2012, 12:30 PM

    Quote
    Well, seeing as how as the Quran states (somewhere in Surah Nisa) that God doesn't commit a single iota of injustice to his creation(I'm paraphrasing here),


    Compare

    Quote
    Buckland considered the depredation of "carnivorous races" as the primary challenge to an idealized world where the lion might dwell with the lamb. He resolved the issue to his satisfaction by arguing that carnivores actually increase "the aggregate of animal enjoyment" and "diminish that of pain." Death, after all, is swift and relatively painless, victims are spared the ravages of decrepitude and senility, and populations do not outrun their food supply to the greater sorrow of all. God knew what he was doing when he made lions. Buckland concluded in hardly concealed rapture:

    The appointment of death by the agency of carnivora as the ordinary termination of animal existence, appears therefore in its main results to be a dispensation of benevolence; it deducts much from the aggregate amount of the pain of universal death; it abridges, and almost annihilates, throughout the brute creation, the misery of disease, and accidental injuries, and lingering decay; and impose such salutary restraint upon excessive increase of numbers, that the supply of food maintains perpetually a due ratio to the demand. The result is, that the surface of the land and depths of the waters are ever crowded with myriads of animated beings, the pleasures of whose life are coextensive with its duration; and which throughout the little day of existence that is allotted to them, fulfill with joy the functions for which they were created.

    We may find a certain amusing charm in Buckland's vision today, but such arguments did begin to address "the problem of evil" for many of Buckland's contemporaries — how could a benevolent God create such a world of carnage and bloodshed? Yet this argument could not abolish the problem of evil entirely, for nature includes many phenomena far more horrible in our eyes than simple predation. I suspect nothing evokes greater disgust in most of us than slow destruction of a host by an internal parasite — gradual ingestion, bit by bit, from the inside. In no other way can I explain why Alien, an uninspired, grade-C, formula horror film, should have won such a following. That single scene of Mr. Alien popping forth as a baby parasite from the body of a human host, was both sickening and stunning. Our nineteenth-century forebears maintained similar feelings. The greatest challenge to their concept of a benevolent deity was not simple predation — but slow death by parasitic ingestion. The classic case, treated at length by all great naturalists, invoked the so-called ichneumon fly. Buckland had sidestepped the major issue.

    The "ichneumon fly," which provoked such concern among natural theologians, was actually a composite creature representing the habits of an enormous tribe. The ichneumonoidea are a group of wasps, not flies, that include more species than all the vertebrates combined (wasp, with ants and bees, constitute the order Hymenoptera; flies, with their two wings — wasps have four — form the order Diptera). In addition, many non-ichneumonoid wasps of similar habits were often cited for the same grisly details. Thus, the famous story did not merely implicate a single aberrant species (perhaps a perverse leakage from Satan's realm), but hundreds of thousands — a large chunk of what could only be God's creation.

    The ichneumon, like most wasps, generally live freely as adults but pass their larva life as parasites feeding on the bodies of other animals, almost invariably members of their own phylum, the Arthropoda. The most common victims are caterpillars (butterfly and moth larvae), but some ichneumons prefer aphids and other attack spiders. Most host are parasitized as larvae, but some adults are attacked, and many tiny ichneumons inject their brood directly into the eggs of their host.

    The free-flying females locate an appropriate host and then convert it into a food factory for their own young. Parasitologists speak of ectoparasitism when the uninvited guest lives on the surface of its host, and endoparasitism when the parasite dwells within. Among endoparasitic ichneumons, adult females pierce the host with their ovipositor and deposit eggs within. (The ovipositor, a thin tube extending backward from the wasp's rear end, may be many times as long as the body itself.) Usually, the host is not otherwise inconvenienced for the moment, at least until the eggs hatch and the ichneumon larvae begin their grim work of interior excavation.

    Among ectoparasites, however, many females lay their eggs directly upon the host's body. Since an active host would easily dislodge the egg, the ichneumon mother often simultaneously injects a toxin that paralyzes the caterpillar or other victim. The paralyzes may be permanent, and the caterpillar lies, alive but immobile, with the agent of its future destruction secure on its belly. The egg hatches, the helpless caterpillar twitches, the wasp larvae pierces and begins its grisly feast.

    Since a dead and decaying caterpillar will do the wasp larvae no good, it eats in a pattern that cannot help but recall, in our inappropriate anthropocentric interpretation, the ancient English penalty for treason — drawing and quartering, with its explicit object of extracting as much torment as possible by keeping the victim alive and sentient. As the king's executioner drew out and burned his client's entrails, so does the ichneumon larvae eat fat bodies and digestive organs first, keeping the caterpillar alive by preserving intact the essential heart and central nervous system. Finally, the larvae completes its work and kills its victim, leaving behind the caterpillar's empty shell. Is it any wonder that ichneumons, not snakes or lions, stood as the paramount challenge to God's benevolence during the heyday of natural theology?


    http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_nonmoral.html

    Try learning about the real universe, instead of trying to understand everything from what is actually a very strange perspective.  What is this fetish with trying to see everything from the viewpoint of an old book about?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #21 - February 11, 2012, 02:08 PM

    Hey, and welcome. I left Islam because of the vast amount of proof that the hadiths has been changed, and corrupted. I became first a Quranist. I then lost the superior complex that I had of the Quran, which led me to do a lot of research about the Quran. Found out that there was not one proof to claim that the Quran has been unchanged, but numbers archeological proof that the Quran has gone through changes.  This then led me to think that the Quran is not from God, it is not perfect. Then I researched all the claims of science and the history of Islam from the 5th century until after Islam’s golden age. Slowly But surely I lost all faith.

    I did try to pray and fast, but you can't believe in something supernatural if you don't have faith. I asked some muslims questions that was challeging. All they did was say astragfurulah. I shouldn't ask those type of questions, the best of them said ask a scholar.

    Muslims celebrate their ignorance calling it humility, to not now anything “because God knows best”, is the easy way out. Muslims have celebrated their ignorance, and defaced and ridiculed themselves by always claiming that they do not know enough, at the same time they call of any responsibility to take matters into their own hands. To study what they believe, it is not enough to merely say to every question asked “God is great”, or ask a scholar. And then claim that you have misunderstood Islam, or that you do not know, when they argued that they are the ones who lack in knowledg.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #22 - February 11, 2012, 08:06 PM

    @Azdaha ExMuslim: Hell is a very unsettling concept for me to handle as well. That's why I don't think the Quran is very stagnant when it comes to the concept of Hell. When hell is described in the Quran, it's never the same details. It's usually based on whatever happened in Mecca and Medina at that time. So based on that, I am not sure that God would make hell eternal in 2012 because times have changed. People are not moral because they happen to follow the religion of their forefathers. Their moral because that is how they want to be treated.

    yes muslimman ....hell is my primary reason to consider islam as false....because the concept of "All Mericful" god is in total contradiction with "eternal hell" , esp for mushriks and disbelievers , no matter how good they were in this world

    I think that the sun setting on the mud was a translation error on the part of Abdullah Yusuf Ali. The reason I think why the Quran doesn't mention things that weren't available at that time was because He was talking to Arabs.

    so don't you think quran was just written for arabs and not for all the time Huh? .....there are many things that proves that quran+muhammad were just influenced by the superstitious culture of arabia of that time......

    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #23 - February 12, 2012, 12:05 AM

    Can anyone one of you help me disbelieve in Islam? Is there any historical proof that the Quran was man-made? I would love to hear it. Oh, and one proof against Islam at a time please.

    P.S: Despite the fact that I am a Muslim, I am glad you guys exist. It's good to know that not all Muslims are the extremist salafi ones. I am more of a Liberal Muslim, but I see my faith fading with time. Even though you guys might hate Islam, you don't seem to hate Muslims. I am glad you guys gave me a platform to talk to ex-Muslims.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #24 - February 12, 2012, 12:57 AM

    I don't hate Islam nor do I yearn for you to became an apostate. If faith helps you became a better person than I think you should remain a Muslim. Metaphysical discourse is subjective anyway,  as evident by the posts on this thread - no one has yet to interject any conclusive proof on either side of the debate.

    Islam - like Christianity in the West  has and continues to be- will soon became irrelevant if and only if freedom and secularism reigns supreme in the Muslim world, until then the clerics will have a stranglehold in society to the detriment of their people.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #25 - February 12, 2012, 11:59 AM

    Quote
    Oh, and one proof against Islam at a time please.



    Sorry this is like buses!  And have a  parrot

    Seek and ye shall find!

    Quote
    A Conference On The Early History Of Islam And The Koran

    by Ibn Warraq (May 2008)

    Report On The Inarah Otzenhauzen[1] Conference On
      “The Early History Of Islam And The Koran”
         March 13-16, 2008
     
    ......

    The proceedings of, and the papers delivered at, the conference will be published in German and English; the latter by Prometheus Books.

    Here is a brief look at some of the papers:

    Professor Johannes Thomas of the University of Paderborn[2] pointed out that our sources for the conquest of Spain by Muslims are quite late and unreliable. There are no Arabic inscriptions dating back to the Eighth Century and only six dating back to the Ninth. The earliest description of the conquest of North Africa and Spain written in Arabic was written by Ibn Abd al-Hakam, an Egyptian who had never been in Spain and who is said to have written the text in the middle of the 9th Century. As the Dutch Arabist Rienhard Dozy said this account has no more historical value than the fairy tales in "The Book of the Thousand Nights and One Night". But as Professor Thomas pointed out, al-Hakam is not an exception, all other Arabian reports and compilations give us the same fairy tales.

    Leaning on the methodology established by Albrecht Noth, Thomas tries to sort out what really happened between the Eighth and Eleventh Century in Spain.

    Professor Helmut Waldmann of TŸbingen gave a brief history of Zurvanism -a branch of Zoroastrianism that had the divinity Zurvan as its First Principle (primordial creator deity). In the second part of his talk, Waldmann gave a sketch of the influence of Zurvanism on Islam

    Filippo Rainieri described the Historic Roots of Sharia, while Geneviève Gobillot of the University of Lyons revealed the astonishing similarities of Koranic theology and the thought of Lactantius [died c.320] an early Christian author, a Latin-speaking native of North Africa, who taught rhetoric in various cities of the Eastern Roman Empire, ending in Constantinople. His Divinae Institutiones ("Divine Institutions"), an early example of a systematic presentation of Christian thought, was probably written between 303 and 311.

    Christoph Heger, convinced of the validity of Christoph Luxenberg and Volker Popp's thesis that early documents, inscriptions and coins that contain the terms "muhammad" and " 'ali" should not be understood as proper names of the putatively historical figures of Islamic historiography but as honorific titles of Jesus Christ, argued that confirmation of the said thesis could be found in the old text of an inscription of a talisman in the possession of Tewfik Canaan.[3] The text of the talisman should be read as:

    "O healer, O God! Help from God and near victory and good tiding of the believers! O praised one [muhammad], O merciful one, O benefactor. There is no young man like the high one [ 'ali] and no sword like the two-edged sword of the high one. O God, O living one, O eternal one, O Lord of majesty and honour, O merciful one, O compassionate one".

    This text should be understood as an invocation of Jesus Christ- the healer, the good tiding, the praised, merciful and high one, the young hero, "out of the mouth [of whom] went a sharp two-edged sword" [Apoc. 1:16], namely “the word of God,” which is “sharper than any two-edged sword” [Hebrews 4:12].
    ......


    http://www.newenglishreview.org/Ibn_Warraq/A_Conference_On_The_Early_History_Of_Islam_And_The_Koran/

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #26 - February 12, 2012, 12:54 PM

    Can anyone one of you help me disbelieve in Islam? Is there any historical proof that the Quran was man-made? I would love to hear it. Oh, and one proof against Islam at a time please.

    P.S: Despite the fact that I am a Muslim, I am glad you guys exist. It's good to know that not all Muslims are the extremist salafi ones. I am more of a Liberal Muslim, but I see my faith fading with time. Even though you guys might hate Islam, you don't seem to hate Muslims. I am glad you guys gave me a platform to talk to ex-Muslims.

    well that is a fair question Muslimman but my problem is to understand , why would any person with all the education in the world  ..reads, writes and interacts on internet,  a modern communication medium  with most modern tools that are made by MAN  asks such a silly question?

    There are ~ 6000 languages that are spoken on this earth., where do you they come from?/  Are they not from Wo/Man..Human??    see the development of languages and their history here

    If  Quran is NOT man made, where do you think it has come from??

    I too would love to hear the answer from you Mr. Muslimman..

      But if you ask that question other way., Where did the ideas behind the Quran came from?  then the answer will be different.  I have read Quran up and down more than 20 times ., I can safely say., there is absolutely  nothing new in it that was not there before the birth of of Prophet of Islam,  Muhammad.  The book was put together after the death of Prophet of Islam., and much of it is copy/pasted from other religious/Arabian pagan alleged scriptures of that time along with some nonsense which sets up rules to control social/political/economical  structure of human beings. All of that  it does in the name of allah for the sake of allah... here no one know what allah is/was ..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #27 - February 12, 2012, 02:18 PM

    Quote
    Questions by Jinn And Tonic(Are you from the Jinnandtonicshow?):
    I think that the sun setting on the mud was a translation error on the part of Abdullah Yusuf Ali. The reason I think why the Quran doesn't mention things that weren't available at that time was because He was talking to Arabs.


    No I am not from the show, but they did ask to use my name Tongue

    So the holy book for ALL people and ALL time was only meant to be understood fully
    by arabs at that time, then?  The perfect quran was mistranslated?? 

    If I recall, it was like what, 70 years or 100 years AFTER mohammad died
    that the caliphs finally compiled it in writing, hence not one person penned
    the quran that had ever personally met or even talked to mohammad?
    Oh, sure, not one iota of error could be possible.

    Perhaps you can answer some questions I have in the quran.

    1. 
    Surat Al-`Ankabūt (The Spider) - سورة العنكبوت
    Sahih International
    And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and placed in his descendants prophethood and scripture. And We gave him his reward in this world, and indeed, he is in the Hereafter among the righteous.

    So Isaac and Jacob inherited prophethood.  WHERE does it say Ishmael inherited it as well?
    Aren't the Arabs descendents of Ishmael?  Where in the quran does it say the sons of Ishmael
    inherited prophethood, too?

    2.  Surat Maryam (Mary) - سورة مريم
    Sahih International
    O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

    Ummmm.... Maryam who had Isa was NOT the sister of Harun.  Aaron DID have a sister
    named Maryam, but there are like a couple of thousand years between the two Maryams.

     
    Quote
    Imagine if you were a human
     


    ooooooookaaaaaaay  Cheesy

     [/quote]
     and you were given the ability to speak to ants. You wouldn't tell them about the string theory or the universe. You would start small. You would talk about the ant's environment before moving on to cities outside of the environment and the countries and the continents etc. Similarly, the reason why I think the Quran appears to be geocentric is because the Arabs would not have understood anything at that time that would be beyond the reach of Arabia. God had to talk to them using images and religions that they already knew.
    [/quote]

    But why the Arabs exclusively, then?  And IF i were human, I would tell them everything!
    If god is so great, why not send angels, or appear himself to all of mankind all over the
    world?  Why just in a tiny corner somewhere in a desert?  Same thing for Judaism and
    Christianity. 

    I have MANY problems with the ahadiths, as well.  But since you said you were a
    quranist, I will leave that alone for now.

    Also, everytime I prayed al fatiha, it disturbed me to no end having to say

    Guide us to the right path.

    The path of those upon whom thou has bestowed favors, Not of those who
    thou has cursed once nor of those who have gone astray.


    That bolded bit had also been translated to "not like the christians and jews"
    AND WHY would god lead them any other way than the right path?  Why
    even add that second bit?  Did god want us to CLARIFY exactly what we
    meant?  Like he didnt already know?

    These things are only scratching the surface as to why I left Islam.
    I am american, was a convert, and currently 52 years old. I can assure
    you I did not make any decisions in haste.  and actually, spent some time
    VERY depressed after realizing god does not exist.  I had wanted him to exist so much!

    oh,  and Im a "sister" not a "brother" but thats okay, people often make that
    call lol. 

    peace Smiley

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #28 - February 12, 2012, 02:55 PM

    Quote
    ants


    This analogy does not work with humans!  We had already seven hundred years before uncle mo is alleged to have lived. achieved this.

    Quote
    Antikythera mechanism
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    The Antikythera mechanism (main fragment)
    The Antikythera mechanism ( /ˌæntɨkɨˈθɪərə/ ant-i-ki-theer-ə or /ˌæntɨˈkɪθərə/ ant-i-kith-ə-rə) is an ancient mechanical computer[1][2] designed to calculate astronomical positions. It was recovered in 1900–1901 from the Antikythera wreck.

    [3] Its significance and complexity were not understood until decades later. Its time of construction is now estimated between 150 and 100 BC.[4]Technological artifacts of similar complexity and workmanship did not reappear until the 14th century, when mechanical astronomical clocks were built in Europe


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

    There were also loads of empires quite capable of copying the koran accurately, translating it and distributing it everywhere. 

    Why did Allah choose a desert when he had Alexandria, Constantinople, Rome, Beijing, Persia and India?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #29 - February 12, 2012, 03:01 PM

    And why not give the koran to the American empires before 1492?  Leif Ericson had been there in the 1000's!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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