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Theme Changer

 Topic: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?

 (Read 14907 times)
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  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #30 - February 12, 2012, 03:09 PM

    Hi Muslimman. I think it's great that you have an open-minded attitude to exploring difficult questions about Islam. Good for you, and welcome! It's a shame if it's not always that easy for Muslims to ask about such things on Islamic forums.

    I think this is a very difficult one to explain away: You say the sun setting in a spring verse could be a mistranslation, but look how similar it is to pre-Islamic poems and a popular contemporary legend about Alexander the Great (here and here). The belief about the sun setting and rising in an earth-encircling ocean goes back to the Egyptians and Babylonians.

    The hardest question is, how could a divine being even make this story sound so much like it is borrowed from a popular legend? Shouldn't he be able to do better with a perfect book, so it's not so easy or even possible to translate it in way that causes a lot of reasonable doubt? Surely a divine author would have been able to foresee and avoid the difficulties it would cause.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #31 - February 12, 2012, 05:38 PM

     finmad finmad finmad finmad finmad finmad finmad finmad
    [I woke up to this topic and felt like ranting sorry]

    I don't understand why anything 'good' and 'moral' is Islamic. There are people who don't smoke or drink and they aren't doing it for Islam, they do it for themselves. As well as people who are kind, give charity etc. It's not an Islamic thing it's human compassion thing, no religion owns that. I tell my Muslim friend that I like to dress modesty with long jeans and sleeved shirts and I hate 'sexy looking things' and she says oh you sound like a Muslim. NO. That's my decision, not religiously motivated. Just because you abandon faith doesn't mean you have to abandon EVERYTHING. christ, just take the moral lessons you learnt from whatever religion you want and then just live your life as a human being, and throw out all the fairy tale bullshit, like Adam being 30feet tall etc. As for the GREAT question of life, no one died and came back and said anything.

     Everything about heaven and hell cannot be proved or disproved. It's all based on superstition and fear, because the thought of fading into the darkness is scary, and we all crave some kind of eternal life. Are you concerned about where you were before you were alive? While the universe was forming millions of years ago? There was nothing, we were nothing, or maybe we were something and can't remember because we were in  a different state. There are hundreds of religions and beliefs, who says one is right and everyone is wrong? Seriously we need to stop killing each other and fighting to prove one religion is more moral than another.  Religion is based on fear, and trying hard not to make themselves look bad. Religious idiots claim that dinosaur bones are fake, and everything is some kind of Jewish/Western or conspiracy to save face. No one will admit that they were wrong, instead they say " Oh this is translated wrong" oh "This actually means this" or " Only God knows" come'on really?! You mean in god's perfect book it's so complicated we can't follow it, pointless.

    How come if anything bad happens, it's never god's fault it's the devil or satan. It's soo easy to shift the blame to not take responsibility and try to avoid the mistakes.  Good fortune knows no religion, and neither does misfortune. 'Miracles' happens with non-believers as well as believers. And the family who worships Allah perfectly, and lives an honest life gets killed by a bomb in their home, while some asshole somewhere gets away with human trafficking, slavery, serial killing, stealing, and lives a good long life. WTF is that? Oh sorry god is too busy writing his name in chicken eggs, to give a shit. Miracles anyone Roll Eyes. Anyone person with common sense, knows that this is wrong. I'm sure most Muslims have doubts and knows it doesn't make sense when their kids ask them these questions, but they shut us all up by saying 'God knows best'. You can dispute history, stories the prophets all you want, but if you take your head out of your butt and look at what's going on RIGHT NOW in the world, you know something is horribly wrong. Look at who is poor, and who is not. Who is healthy and who is not. Who is happy and content and who is not. You can use real life right now as your evidence for which religion is getting ahead and which is falling behind, not in numbers but in living a comfortable life(And I'm talking about other religions not just Islam) Why are Muslims all immigrating to countries run by non-Muslims? Why are priests abusing little boys? Why are dictators allowed to get away with killing their own citizens? Why are people using god as a shield for a political agenda to obtain power? For the word of god, why do people have to do all the talking? We were all born atheists anyway, until the culture we grew up in shapes our beliefs.

    Ok I'm done.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #32 - February 12, 2012, 07:22 PM

    The thing is, there are so many faults and silly sayings in the quran.  Like say, the sky is not a dome, the sun doesn't set in muddy spring, humans can't talk to animals.  Jinns don't exist, shooting stars don't hit Jinns or Satan since they don't exist.  There are many other things which Islamic scholars claim which aren't even in the quran.  Even parts of the quran which they twist to make it seem like it fits with science.  Like Zakhir Naek.

    If god wanted to spread his word, and he is all powerful, then surely he would have better methods than some book.  Surely god would not rely on a man who cannot read or write.  We can have all sorts of dreams, so why would god use that kind of method to deliver his message, why would anyone believe him.  If your friend told you he had a vision of his death, like in Final Destination, would you believe him.  Besides it is unfair to send that kind of message to just one man and expect people to believe him.

    Even if the quran is the book of god, then it is unreliable since it was written after Mohammed's death.  For all we know they could have written anything they wished in that book.

    For me believing in god is like believing in unicorns.  You don't believe in unicorns because as far as we know, they are fairy tale's and there is no proof of their existence.  I don't see the point of worshiping something you aren't sure exist.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #33 - February 12, 2012, 08:27 PM

    here is another prime example why I, and many others got disgusted with
    Islam

    http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-journalist-arrested-tweets-prophet-muhammad-230148196.html

    please help me understand what this guy said in his tweets thats was blasphemous, and
    worthy of the death penalty?

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #34 - February 13, 2012, 05:25 PM

    And to those who accept me for who I am, and what I am, I will share myself, naked, unashamed, with arms wide open.



    Did you mean that literally or metaphorically? Inquiring minds want to know. Wink
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #35 - February 13, 2012, 11:57 PM

    I guess I should be more blunt. I appreciate you guys telling me about how you left Islam. I come from a Secular Muslim family so I am not that religious. I also appreciate you guys telling me not to leave Islam per se.

    If someone can disprove that the Quran came from God and instead came from humans, I might be really interested in looking at Islam from a different angle.

  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #36 - February 14, 2012, 12:54 AM

    Surah 19. Mary

    28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

    ummm... Mary did not have a brother named Aaron.  Now Aaron and Moses DID have
    a sister named Miriam, but they are two different people.  Matter of fact, there is at
    least a thousand years between Miriam, sister to moses and aaron, and Mary, mother
    of Isa (Jesus).

    Mary was a descendent of the family of King David.  Moses, Aaron and Miriam came
    LOOOONG before king david.  so.. how does allah explain this?

    my other favorite verse is:

    Surah 29. The Spider

    27. And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous.

    No mention of Ishmael here.  So if thats the case, how did Mohammad inherit prophethood?


    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #37 - February 14, 2012, 01:04 AM

    Surah 19. Mary

    28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

    ummm... Mary did not have a brother named Aaron.  Now Aaron and Moses DID have
    a sister named Miriam, but they are two different people.  Matter of fact, there is at
    least a thousand years between Miriam, sister to moses and aaron, and Mary, mother
    of Isa (Jesus).

    Mary was a descendent of the family of King David.  Moses, Aaron and Miriam came
    LOOOONG before king david.  so.. how does allah explain this?

    my other favorite verse is:

    Surah 29. The Spider

    27. And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous.

    No mention of Ishmael here.  So if thats the case, how did Mohammad inherit prophethood?



    Well Jinn you already posted that verse at http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=19771.msg562914#msg562914 in this folder., if Muslimman doesn't read your posts and go on responding with the SAME STATEMENT "
    Quote
    If someone can disprove that the Quran came from God and instead came from humans, I might be really interested in looking at Islam from a different angle.

     then it doesn't matter how many verses from Quran you post,  his response is going to be the same one.   It is like Playing jazz in front of a completely deaf guy..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #38 - February 14, 2012, 01:18 AM

    Hi muslimman

     Evidence that Muhammad stole the bible stories, and created a false message in the quran. The story of Jonah is totally unrealistic yet it appears in the quran, as a copy of the bible story.

    Bible, book of Jonah

    Jonah:1:15: So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
    Jon:1:17: Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
    Jon:2:1: Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
    Jon:2:10: And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land

    Quran sura 37

    037.139 So also was Jonah among those sent (by Us).

    037.140 When he ran away (like a slave from captivity) to the ship (fully) laden,

    037.141 He (agreed to) cast lots, and he was condemned:

    037.142 Then the big Fish did swallow him, and he had done acts worthy of blame.

    037.143 Had it not been that he (repented and) glorified Allah,

    037.144 He would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection.

    037.145 But We cast him forth on the naked shore in a state of sickness,

     There is no fish that can swallow a man whole except the sperm whale, and there is no possibility of surviving in the stomach of a sperm whale.
    In fact there is a recorded incident when a man was swallowed by a sperm whale and the whale was caught. The mans body was recovered from its stomach crushed, and partly digested.

    No other fish exists that can swallow a man as all other whales are plankton eaters with throats no wider than 5 inches.

    THEREFORE THE STORY OF JONAH IS A MYTH!

    So the story received by Muhammad did not come from God it came from the bible.

    If you want to believe the quran is the absolute word of God, you are forced to accept the story of Jonah being swallowed by a whale, and spat up alive on a beach as a historical fact.

    But it goes against fact and reason.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #39 - February 14, 2012, 05:54 PM

    A whale is also no fish.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #40 - February 14, 2012, 06:54 PM

    If someone can disprove that the Quran came from God and instead came from humans, I might be really interested in looking at Islam from a different angle.


    I can understand the desire for certainty over such a big step. All you need in order to convince yourself of that is to find any imperfection in the Qur'an with regards to its purpose. One of its self proclaimed purposes is to convince those with open minds that it is from Allah. Does not the argument I gave at the top of this page show that it is not perfect in this respect, that it could have been done better? It is one of countless examples.

    I have another example next of a very clear case of the Quran copying a Rabbinic comment in the Talmud with corroborating evidence. But as you asked, one at a time, so I'd be interested in your thoughts on the thing I already mentioned?
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #41 - February 14, 2012, 07:00 PM

    I have to agree with devilsadvokat.  Theres a substantial
    amount of the koran which is parroted from the Old and New
    Testament.  Some of it has been "modified" to to fit the
    culture of his time, but yes, there's alot of bible in the koran.

    I was a very faithful christian for MANY years before converting
    to Islam, and did an immense amount of study of the bible, as
    well as greek and hebrew lexicon studies.  I will give you examples,
    but its gonna take a while to look everything up so you have
    specific references.  

    I want to assure you, I was most devout both as a christian and as
    a muslim, and becoming an atheist, well, was kind of traumatic for
    me.  I REALLY wanted to believe there was a god D:  I have spent
    much time in introspection and retrospection trying to sort everything
    out.  My realizations and epiphanies did not come all at once.  But
    over a very long period of time.

    peace, my friend.

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #42 - February 14, 2012, 07:10 PM

    J and T  Your thoughts about what is in the koran that was in the Bible would be a very valuable resource on a blog...

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #43 - February 14, 2012, 08:25 PM

    I guess I should be more blunt. I appreciate you guys telling me about how you left Islam. I come from a Secular Muslim family so I am not that religious. I also appreciate you guys telling me not to leave Islam per se.

    If someone can disprove that the Quran came from God and instead came from humans, I might be really interested in looking at Islam from a different angle.



    Well, try it this way around, Muslimman. It's not for anyone to prove that what the quran asserts is wrong; rather it's up to its proponents to prove that it's right. So shoot, prove it.
     You can't use subjectives: ie you can't quote from religious texts or quote from quotes about religious texts. Keep it objective and give tangible evidence for your assertions. Start with the idea of God if you want - what evidence do you have that such a thing might exist? If you can provide convincing evidence for that, then we can debate whether what's in the book may or may not be the word of he/she/it.
    You can of course apply this test to any belief or religion.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #44 - February 29, 2012, 06:58 AM

    You guys make this harder than it need be.....

    *The quran says Allah is All-Merciful and the Most Merciful and Compassionate.
    *The quran says Allah sends people to hell for various reasons to burn their skins off and act out other deleted scenes from Saw IV.
    *Therefor Allah isnt All-Merciful (as his mercy is not unconditional) or most Merciful or most Compassionate (as there are humans who are more compassionate and merciful than that).
    *Therefor, ipso facto, the quran is incorrect about something.
    *Therefor, it isnt dictation verbatim from an all powerful being
    *Therefor, muhammed was either lying, had mental problems, or both



    TaDa. Disproved your religion in fewer lines than Fatiha. Easy Peachy Japanesey

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #45 - February 29, 2012, 09:50 AM

    Did anyone show this guy where the Quran says the Earth is Flat and it never refers to the earth as round also where it completely neglects the female ovum in its embryology part ??

  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #46 - March 08, 2012, 09:11 AM

    Sorry guys for posting late. I hope you don't think I am a troll. I am starting to doubt my beliefs in Islam. Reading your comments make it difficult to conceal this doubt to myself.

    I have heard that the Quran actually came from some Aramaic words of some sort. Can someone clarify? Also what's the deal with the oldest Quranic manuscript being discovered in Sanaa?

    P.S. It's difficult for me to try and come to terms with this. So please forgive me if I want to protect whatever is left of my religion.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #47 - March 08, 2012, 12:07 PM

    Quote
    If someone can disprove that the Quran came from God and instead came from humans, I might be really interested in looking at Islam from a different angle.


    You want to know if the quran came from a man or a god? I’ll tell you a secret that even the ex-muslims have not really caught onto. The downfall of islam is not the quran but the biography of Muhammad. It’s simply a horror story. That is why there are hardly any films or movies of his life. He is simply off limits. Even as a muslim you still ask if it was from humans, knowing full well it’s from the mouth of Muhammad. You have been indoctrinated to not question Muhammad, thus protecting the weakest link in islam, its founder.   

    The True story of the quran is not in the quran itself. In fact it’s a book full of fables and revelations that make no sense without outside information. But the story of Muhammad puts it all together. You see the quran is not from god, but from the mouth of Muhammad. Muhammad was a man, thus it came from a man. The revelations in the quran follow Muhammad’s life.

    Muhammed provided no evidence that god was speaking to him. He called anyone who didn’t believe deaf, dumb and blind and destined for hell as shown in the quran. He essentially insulted anyone who did not believe. He assassinated and killed any opponents. He raided tribes, beheaded his victims, taken women and children as slaves and wives. He built an empire on lies, he gained support and followers by intimidation and giving them the booty of war and thieving. 
     
    Now ask yourself is this the normal conduct of a god that allows a man to do these things? Seems more like the devil. The quran never existed in his own time. What proof did Muhammad ever bring that god spoke to him? In fact I think the devil spoke to Muhammad, can anyone prove the devil didn’t speak to him?

    Islam is based on one man. The world is slowly but surely waking up to his story. Once his story is spread far and wide, there will be trouble. It may take 10-20 years for films to be made about him, for books to become main stream about him. But after 1400 years, Muhammad is no longer off limits.

    Learn about Muhammad’s life objectively and you will see the truth through the hadiths. See how he built a harem of women. See how his hatred grew for women as he couldn’t please them and could not provide them with children as he was an old man. See how he butchered the tribes of Arabia. See how he treated the victims of his conquests. And then ask yourself then if this man had god in his ears.     
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #48 - March 08, 2012, 12:47 PM

    I personally don't have a problem with muslims who are secularist, and don't teach children that they could be potentially tortured mercilessly and eternally after they die.

    But I'll try to answer your question regarding the Quran...

    1) The primary argument for the Quran's divine origin is the 'intimitability' of the Quran.

    Let's assume the Quran is inimitable, that is not evidence of it's divine origin. Many works of art - like picasso's paintings for instance - are 'inimitable', meaning that experts can tell the difference between an original work of the creator, and an imitation. Yet I doubt you would conclude that because the works of art of; Picasso, Jimi Hendrix, and Shakesphere are inimitable that they are from divine origin.

    The only reason why muslims, or potential converts take the 'inimitable' argument seriously is becuase the Quran says it's from God, and says that the evidence that it's from God is it's 'intimitablity'.  Huh?

    As a muslim you don't believe that 7th century arabic is a divine revelation, so you agree that the normative structure of the language was a social construct. So all muhammad did was transcend a social construct, I wouldn't call that a miracle. Innovative artists have done it numerous time in the 20th century alone - that's how new genre's of music have developed.

    Here's a vid I made on the subject;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv_2HgdXi7c

    2) If the Quran is from God, how come it motivates some muslims to murder.

    If the Quran is from an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omnibenevolent creator then I would rationally assume that it wouldn't be so poorly produced that it can lead to (according to itself) severe misguidance. The author could - and should - have taken into account human cognition, so it wouldn't result it in gross misinterpretations. As any good author does - but apparently not an omniscient and omnibenevolent deity?

    It has resulted in moral and intellectual misguidance so severe that it has resulted in the killing, enslavement and abuse of the same people that it's supposedly sent here to help.

    The claim makes no sense when you take into account the 2 attributes of omniscience and omnibenevolence.

    Here's a video that I made on this point;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK0-ELlP0t8

    The most probable explanation for the Quran is that it was a poem crafted over 23 years, by a skilled 7th century poet and monotheist called Muhammad.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #49 - March 08, 2012, 02:06 PM

    Sorry guys for posting late. I hope you don't think I am a troll. I am starting to doubt my beliefs in Islam. Reading your comments make it difficult to conceal this doubt to myself.

    I have heard that the Quran actually came from some Aramaic words of some sort. Can someone clarify? Also what's the deal with the oldest Quranic manuscript being discovered in Sanaa?

    P.S. It's difficult for me to try and come to terms with this. So please forgive me if I want to protect whatever is left of my religion.


    dont you think this also happened to many of us?  The fear gripping us of
    "what if its not true?"  Panic, depression, feeling like we have been decieved
    on an epic scale?  Dearest Muslimman.  Its not easy AT ALL!  Do you realize
    how many of us felt so devistated that Islam, the ONLY thing we had, no matter how
    we tried to rationalize the idiocy of some of it, was all that we had left to
    cling to the notion of god? 

    You already have taken the hardest step.  The questioning.  Something that
    so many of us actually AVOIDED to keep us feeling secure and safe. 

    If its any consolation, dear one, I cried, I wept, I sunk in to such a state of
    depression and anger.  I liken it to the five stages of grief when someone
    dies.  Cuz someone does.  God no longer exists.   Cry

    But Muslimman.  I realized it was not the end.  It was just the beginning of
    seeing life with new eyes.  I am 52 years old.  I did not go crazy after I left
    and go wild.  I sat at home, read, studied, even though it scared me, and
    reasoned with everything.  And, 2 1/2 years later, the most exiciting dare devil
    thing I do is go fishing with my friends lol! 

    I have not committed treason, I am not going to war with the rest of the muslim
    world lol.  And also, I have died twice.  I wrote about it on this thread.  Please
    feel free to read my experiences.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10925.0

    Muslimman, only you can come to any realizations of what is and isnt.
    But no matter what conclusion you come to, whether its continuing to
    believe in Islam or not, we will be here for you, either way.  And dont
    worry, the feelings you have now will pass, and life DOES get better!

     far away hug

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #50 - March 08, 2012, 06:57 PM

    Great post Jinn!

    Like she said, it was a very challenging experience for most of us.

    I agree with philosopher loyal rue - religion is a narrative that provides us with inspiration, meaning and values. To let go of a islamic narrative that has provided us with inspiration, meaning and values is usually a traumatic experience - which it was for me.

    I found it intellectually and emotionally challenging to deconvert, but eventually it was a liberating experience.

    And remember we are here for support.  far away hug  

    Check out the videos in this thread, hopefully they'll help and inspire you emotionally.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=19942.0

    If you want to read an incredibly moving and insightful account of what it's like to deconvert from a religion check out the youtube deconversion series by Evid3nc3...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSy1-Q_BEtQ
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #51 - March 08, 2012, 07:34 PM

    @ strangestdude: Great Vids dude.

    You sound African American, no offense.

  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #52 - March 08, 2012, 08:04 PM

    Quote
    The most probable explanation for the Quran is that it was a poem crafted over 23 years, by a skilled 7th century poet and monotheist called Muhammad.


    May I beg to differ?

    I think it is a rag tag of collected writings, probably based on a xian easy read guide, probably 700 - 800, originally written in Syrio - Aramaic.

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/Ibn_Warraq/A_Conference_On_The_Early_History_Of_Islam_And_The_Koran/

    Quote
    Professor Johannes Thomas of the University of Paderborn[2] pointed out that our sources for the conquest of Spain by Muslims are quite late and unreliable. There are no Arabic inscriptions dating back to the Eighth Century and only six dating back to the Ninth. The earliest description of the conquest of North Africa and Spain written in Arabic was written by Ibn Abd al-Hakam, an Egyptian who had never been in Spain and who is said to have written the text in the middle of the 9th Century. As the Dutch Arabist Rienhard Dozy said this account has no more historical value than the fairy tales in "The Book of the Thousand Nights and One Night". But as Professor Thomas pointed out, al-Hakam is not an exception, all other Arabian reports and compilations give us the same fairy tales.

    Leaning on the methodology established by Albrecht Noth, Thomas tries to sort out what really happened between the Eighth and Eleventh Century in Spain.

    Professor Helmut Waldmann of TŸbingen gave a brief history of Zurvanism -a branch of Zoroastrianism that had the divinity Zurvan as its First Principle (primordial creator deity). In the second part of his talk, Waldmann gave a sketch of the influence of Zurvanism on Islam.

    Filippo Rainieri described the Historic Roots of Sharia, while Geneviève Gobillot of the University of Lyons revealed the astonishing similarities of Koranic theology and the thought of Lactantius [died c.320] an early Christian author, a Latin-speaking native of North Africa, who taught rhetoric in various cities of the Eastern Roman Empire, ending in Constantinople. His Divinae Institutiones ("Divine Institutions"), an early example of a systematic presentation of Christian thought, was probably written between 303 and 311.

    Christoph Heger, convinced of the validity of Christoph Luxenberg and Volker Popp's thesis that early documents, inscriptions and coins that contain the terms "muhammad" and " 'ali" should not be understood as proper names of the putatively historical figures of Islamic historiography but as honorific titles of Jesus Christ, argued that confirmation of the said thesis could be found in the old text of an inscription of a talisman in the possession of Tewfik Canaan.[3] The text of the talisman should be read as:

    "O healer, O God! Help from God and near victory and good tiding of the believers! O praised one [muhammad], O merciful one, O benefactor. There is no young man like the high one [ 'ali] and no sword like the two-edged sword of the high one. O God, O living one, O eternal one, O Lord of majesty and honour, O merciful one, O compassionate one".

    This text should be understood as an invocation of Jesus Christ- the healer, the good tiding, the praised, merciful and high one, the young hero, "out of the mouth [of whom] went a sharp two-edged sword" [Apoc. 1:16], namely “the word of God,” which is “sharper than any two-edged sword” [Hebrews 4:12].

    Where Dr. Markus Gross discussed the Buddhist influence on Islam, Professor Kropp explained the Ethiopian elements in the Koran. Independent scholar, traveller, and numismatist Volker Popp argued that Islamic history as recounted by Islamic historians has a Biblical structure –the first four caliphs are clearly modelled on Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses. The Muslim historians transformed historical facts to fit a Biblical pattern. Popp also developed a fascinating thesis that Islamic historians had a propensity to turn nomen (gentile) (name of the gens or clan) into patronyms; a patronym being a component of a personal name based on the name of one's father. Thus Islamic historians had a tendency to take, for instance, Iranian names on inscriptions and turn them into Arabic-sounding names. Having turned Iranians into Arabs, the next step was to turn historical events connected with the original Iranians which had nothing to do with Islamic history into Islamic history. For example, Islamic history knows various so called Civil Wars. One of them was between Abd-al-Malik, his governor al-Hajjaj and the rival caliph in Mecca by the name of Abdallah Zubair. The evidence of inscriptions tells us that the name Zubayr is a misreading. The correct reading is ZNBYL. This was made into ZUBYL by the Arab historians. From ZUBYL they derived the name Zubair, which has no Semitic root. The real story is a fight between Abd al-Malik at Merv and the King of Kabulistan, who held the title ZNBYL. This took place between 60 and 75 Arab era in the East of the former Sassanian domains. The historians transferred this feud to Mecca and Jerusalem and then embedded the whole into the structure of a well known story from the Old Testament, the secession of Omri and his building the Temple of Samaria.

    The paper delivered by Rainer Nabielek of Berlin provided evidence of a successful application of Luxenberg’s method not only to the Koran but to non-religious texts as well. This was convincingly shown by means of a hitherto unsolved medical term. This medical term can be traced back to Syriac in the same way as many Koranic expressions as demonstrated by Luxenberg. In addition to this Nabielek pointed in his paper to the hitherto overlooked phenomenon of the existence of loan syntax in classical Arabic. His contribution confirms the validity of Luxenberg’s method in general.

    Keith Small compared the textual variants in the New Testament manuscripts and Koranic manuscripts. Dr. Elisabeth Puin gave a lucid, and highly original analysis of an early Koran manuscript from Sana, Yemen, [DAM 01-27.1] in part written over a palimpsest Koranic text. Dr. Elisabeth Puin summarized her findings and their implications,

    “As for the scriptio superior, the comparison with the Standard text [Cairo 1924/25 Koran] shows that it still contains many differences in orthography and verse counting; there are even minor textual variants, like, for example, singular instead of plural, wa- instead of fa-, and so on. Some - but by far not all - of those differences were at a later stage corrected by erasure and /or amendments. We cannot suppose that all the differences are only due to the calligrapher's inattention, being simply spelling mistakes; there are too many of them on every page, and some of them are found repeatedly, not only in this manuscript but in others too. So we must conclude that at the stage when and in the region where the manuscript was written those variants were not felt to be mistakes but conformed to a specific writing tradition.”    

    Professor Van Reeth, already much impressed by Luxenberg's thesis and methodology, gave two talks at the conference. The shorter one compared the image of the pearl in four passages in the Koran that refer to a eucharistic prayer, and a parallel image found in the Eucharist of the Manichaeans. The longer talk discussed the similarities of the Islamic vision of the union of Muhammad with his God, and the commentary of Ephrem the Syrian on the union of the believer with God.

    Ibn Warraq gave a brief account of the errors, fallacies, and contradictions in Edward Said's highly influential Orientalism. Dr. Dšhla focused on Spain, and described the historical settings in which the two groups of Mozarabs (8th c. to 12th c.) and Moriscos (16th c.) had been living. These two groups used the Arabic script to write their Romance and Spanish texts. “This contact of two different systems offers the opportunity to find out more about the phonetic realisations of Vulgar-Arabic and the Romance language transcribed.”[4]

    Dr Reynolds of the University of Notre Dame (U.S.A.) examined the meaning of the difficult term hanif, found in the Koran but clearly a non-Arabic word. It probably comes from the Syriac word hanpa, meaning pagan, but in the Koran it has a secondary Syriac meaning, of a clan (gens); ethnicity. In the Koran the term is almost always used in connection with Abraham, but in the sense of his ethnicity and never his religion.

    Finally, Christoph Luxenberg himself gave an impressive talk that seemed to untie some difficult knots that several centuries of both Islamic and Western scholarship had been unable to undo. He gave an original explanation of the so-called mysterious letters with which some Surahs commence. At the beginning of twenty nine suras following the bismillah stands a letter, or a group of letters which are simply read as separate letters of the alphabet.[5] Luxenberg suggested that they all had something to do with Syriac liturgical traditions. For instance, the letter êŒd at the beginning of Surah 38 indicates the number 90, referring to Psalm 90, while the letters A L R to be found at the beginning of Surahs 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 are a Syriac abbreviation meaning “The Lord said to me.”






    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #53 - March 09, 2012, 02:59 AM


    Muslimman, only you can come to any realizations of what is and isnt.
    But no matter what conclusion you come to, whether its continuing to
    believe in Islam or not, we will be here for you, either way.  And dont
    worry, the feelings you have now will pass, and life DOES get better!

     far away hug


    I am sorry if I sounded like I was insensitive to you guys. I am only 21, so this is really big for me.

    I appreciate the fact that you guys will be there for me for whatever decision I make. You guys are a lot better than Muslim forums like Sunniforums or Ummah forums, both of which I got banned. I will read more from this topic and this forum to get a clear, objective picture of Islam to come to my conclusions.

    I really hope you people are doing great in your lives.

    I read Hassan's blog about how he left Islam, and I could relate to what he was saying.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #54 - March 09, 2012, 04:14 AM



    I am sorry if I sounded like I was insensitive to you guys. I am only 21, so this is really big for me.

    I appreciate the fact that you guys will be there for me for whatever decision I make. You guys are a lot better than Muslim forums like Sunniforums or Ummah forums, both of which I got banned. I will read more from this topic and this forum to get a clear, objective picture of Islam to come to my conclusions.

    I really hope you people are doing great in your lives.

    I read Hassan's blog about how he left Islam, and I could relate to what he was saying.


    I tend to make long posts forgive me  Roll Eyes


    With people like us, non-believers or doubters. We don't really have that much at stake when our beliefs are questioned. Whereas any religious group needs to protect its identity at all cost. Any evidence brought up against is met with excuses or "God knows best so don't worry about it" However, with science, science is open to be disputed. With religion nothing can be changed or altered even if it obviously questionable. Life evolves, science evolves, religion does not. Which is why Muslims/ religious fanatics hate it when smart people like us bring our logic to their beliefs and call us evil and influenced by jinn/satan to lead people astray. And followers eat up this argument and it prevents them from thinking on their own.

    Think of it this way, you need to ask yourself what makes sense, and not leave it up to be explained by God. You don't have to abandon your religion entirely if you aren't comfortable with the idea. What I did, being an ex-Christian, is that I live my life by the teachings of Jesus and that stuff I grew up with, but I don't call myself a Christian because I honestly CANNOT believe most of the stories and ideas about God, The Trinity and Hell are all that bullshit. Having Christian friends saying I'm going to hell because I don't believe in Jesus even though I try to help as many people as I can even at my own inconvenience and I try to keep myself out of trouble. Also even my Muslim, Hindu, Jewish etc. friends it seems illogical and cruel, because I love all of them and I don't understand why (The Christian God) does not.

    I even had a friend say that I sound like I should be a Muslim because as young woman I prefer to dress very modestly (long pants, and loose fitting shirts, minus the head covering of course). And i think she was hinting to convert me or something. However, Islam does not OWN I repeat it does OWN the ideas of modesty, charity and other moral deeds. That's something you decide as a human not as a consequence of a religion.

    I mention this because people seem to believe without religion you become immoral and susceptible to doing evil acts. Look, Muhammad, Moses nor Jesus never even said slavery was wrong. Yet normal people worked and fought to free people from slavery ( and some still are today) yet they are all forgotten about. None of the prophets said slavery was bad, they could not see beyond the scope of what was norm therefore wasted time making rules and laws for owning and treating slaves. The real heroes for the life we live today such as, technology, increase in quality living conditions, cure for diseases, abolishment of slavery, the better treatment of women, gender and race equality etc., a better understanding of nature and the elements. All done by people of various races, religions/non-religions, countries etc. Not prophets. And especially not someone favored by God based on their religion.

    Take your time and think things through. But most importantly be honest with yourself. You shouldn't have to lie because if God was there and all knowing, then he clearly knows and obviously does not care.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #55 - March 09, 2012, 05:59 AM

    (I can't be bothered to tidy it up, but here's one I made earlier):

    I think the mistake you make is to call it a switch. There are many reasons to leave a religion. There are many reasons to disbelieve in gods. Doing either doesn't necessarily mean one will jump straight into bed with a replacement. It can also be liberating life experience. It doesn't have to leave a religion shaped hole that needs filling - it can set you free to just explore yourself and the universe and take it as it comes. Some people don’t even have emotional attachments, instead having practical attachments. Some want or need neither. Both these kind of attachments can be replaced. But you’re not going to put much thought into finding a replacement if they are still holding your attention.

    Islam never really held my attention. I always found myself out of synch with it. Praying was boring, fasting was uncomfortable, the structured ruleset was frustrating me, curiosity was met with trite answers that left me unsatisfied, and the divine directives didn’t sit right with me, and I saw the injustices and didn't like them, not only to myself but to others, long before I actually did any reading or investigation into the rationale of how things came to be this way for me. So I wouldn’t describe it as emotional. I think it was a practical, sensual thing - it smelled like bullshit. I was an unbeliever even before I realised what one was, simply by practical deduction. There was no “Eureka!” moment. There was no BOOM! I am an Atheist! It was a complete non-event - the end of an organic, gradual process. The result of largely an unconscious effort.

    Some people are just not born to be Muslim. Some people have a wilder lust for the world and an animal ‘fear of the trap’ that makes resistance to systems of life like Islam part of their very being. And it's maybe more typical of adolescence than adulthood. Maybe I got out just in time, before I made a terrible compromise to my existence. I can’t really speak for emotional attachments in this case, but I can maybe explain why Islam is not even remotely attractive to me except maybe as a chew toy when I’m bored.

    First, the theological claims of Islam have been proven to be false, again and again, by people much more informed and eloquent than I. Simply by its own internal inconsistencies and fallacies as a work of literature, the Qur’an is self-refuting. Any theist with a modicum of self-respect has to concede that it was ‘just metaphor and parable’ in order to reconcile it with reality and in order to be accepted as marginally sensible in a modern adult world.

    Taken at face value, without bias, the Qur’an is profoundly lacking in substance. As a work of literature, its terrible. Poorly written, poorly structured, uncannily resembling the blissfully ignorant views of the men of that time.This is a fact: it has been outshined, outclassed, outmatched by superior written works. And it makes matters worse for itself by being such an arrogant work. Making bold claims of perfection, challenging its reader to find better. Well, guess what? I found better, and I didn’t even have to look very hard at all. Maybe millennia ago, when books were simply not available, it stood out as the bestest fresh and relevant thing to hand, but what are people’s excuses these days? You can walk into any library or bookshop and take a random book off the shelf and prove this point: the Qur’an has not stood the test of time.

    Subjective? Perhaps. But when you consider the vast majority of Muslims have not even read the Qur’an anyway and claim to be an authority on it, and when you consider that many of the ones who do actually investigate their own scripture, blatantly lie and squirm about massive sections of its content when they are cornered about it, I think I’ve got a pretty good case. Hence why so many Muslim careers have been made on pseudo-philosophy and bunk science, trying to find or manufacture hidden meanings behind drained, worn-out lines of rotting text that are demonstrably defunct, and we end up with the so-called Miracles of the Qur’an and various strained numerological attempts and desperate pattern seeking. It’s all so forced and contrived - a sad and pitiful attempt to keep the Qur’an relevant in a world that has already moved on.

    On to the mythology. I love a good myth. I love a good story - big, larger than life characters, heroes and villains, champions and monsters, honour, bravery, tragedy, deceit, epic sagas, swashbuckling human drama - good old fashioned storytelling. What the authors of the Qur’an have managed to do, in the process of plagiarising and cannibalising every tradition that came before, is to ruin great myths. And its biggest crime is surgically removing any modicum of humour from them. Sterilising them to fit in with The Plan. It has a complete inability to laugh at itself. Islam is where great myths go to die. It’s a graveyard of broken myths. One seeking true adventure would do well to follow the trail of breadcrumbs back to the originals it has stolen from. See for yourself the hatchet job those ham-fisted bastards did.

    What about philosophy? Here is what I can write about the philosophy of Islam: Nothing. There isn’t anything to go on. Islam is philosophically sterile. It’s almost as though philosophy didn’t even exist as a concept hundreds of years earlier, almost like Islam evolved in a philosophical vacuum. The measure of its failings is illustrated when any analysis of Islam has to be cross referenced with superior works, some even older. It’s almost funny. What a pathetic, infantile stab in the dark at philosophy Islam offers us. What kind of unfortunate and simplistic proto-mind can be satisfied by it? What appetite do I have that otherwise intelligent and respectable Muslims do not? It is a mystery to me.

    Belief in Islam takes so much from you. Yes, it takes from you, and gives back nothing you can’t drink elsewhere from cleaner streams. You’re diving for pearls in poisoned waters. It traps Muslims in a rigid spiritual prison. A good, subservient, observant Muslim has their spiritual journey restricted by the ruleset of Islam. It is not only restricted, but ruthlessly policed by an all seeing eye. There is the overbearing knowledge that you will be judged according to a specific and set standard. You are held back. You are compelled in some cases to fight against your own good conscience, do things no good person should do, for no other reason than: it says so in a book I think is awesome. Like the wise man Jason Bourne once said, “Do you even know why you’re supposed to kill me? Look at what they make you give.”

    As an institution, Islam is systematically responsible for some of the worst human rights violations in the world. It is no coincidence. These things don’t just happen to be occurring in Muslim nations. These are the directives of Islam, the divine will of a fantasy war god that ancient clerics and superstitionists decided to name “Allah”. These things are the cornerstones of its tradition - subdue, suppress, assert, aggress, spread, dehumanise opposition, demonise dissent, sustained by the unwavering faith in the ascendancy and supremacy of the chosen. This is not something I even want to believe in, support, or swear allegiance to, even if it were miraculously and irrefutably revealed to be true. Even if I did believe in the existence of a god resembling the different Abrahamic brands of the One True God™, I’d distance myself from the ponzie scheme as a matter of principle. It is not a choice of belief or disbelief - it is a choice of being a good person or being a good Muslim.

    Ultimately, I was faced with that choice of being a good person or being a good Muslim. A human being cannot be both in my eyes. These two things are at opposite ends of the scale for me. To be an obedient, observant Muslim, you must sacrifice your humanity. You must surrender to a divine will, swear honest fealty to it, without doubt, without questioning. To be a good person you must not only renounce many of the central tenets of Islam, but you must also openly oppose them, wherever they manifest in the world. Then, and only then, can you claim to be a human with me. Or, you can compromise - live some kind of half-life, a contradictory creature, torn between faith and your own conscience, drifting this way and that amid your own confused and unbalanced inner equilibrium - fooling yourself that you are free, and valued, and precious to non-existent higher power. You can pretend that you love an unlovable god, pretend that such a hateful god could ever love you, try to salvage some validation and purpose, some salvation from a book that gives you a little and then takes a lot more, and all the time harbouring a self-loathing, a deep rooted knowledge that you are a slave to that same higher power, with your mind shackled and your heart held back from true human interaction, under his ever-present gaze and scrutiny. That’s no life for me. That isn’t living.

    I reject Islam wholeheartedly. I made my choice. I chose to try and be a good person instead of trying to be a good Muslim. The main symptom of doing so was feeling the weight lift off as each and every facet of Islam fell away from me. I have learned I no longer have to surrender my body, mind and soul to the god of the Prophet’s desires, dreams and delusions, and I have realised that I wont be punished for imaginary crimes in an imaginary afterlife if I choose not to surrender. The more I learned about the Prophet, the more I found him repulsive, even for a man of his time. The more I pulled away from that hideous Abrahamic concept of a supreme ‘one-god’, the more alive and vital I was in this gorgeous universe. I was free to be me, the person inside, perfect with all my flaws, comfortable in my own skin, no longer a mind-slave to the dark age ideologies imagined up by sadistic and insane monsters of history, no longer led along by the nose like cattle, no longer living according to the dogma spelled out by long-dead fools whose ideas belong in the graveyard of failed human endeavours, throwbacks to the infancy of our species. The umbilical cord that holds back the ascendancy and mastery of our own spirits and minds must be cut. We’ve crawled along on our belly for too long under religion. We should be walking on our own by now, running by now. We could even be flying by now.

    There are better role models in this beautiful world than the so-called Prophet. There are better contributions to the world than the cancerous, poisoned chalice known as the Quran. There are better wisdoms out there to find, to add to your own spiritual alchemy, better philosophies, better revelations, better discoveries, better poetic and artistic expression, better hopes and dreams to be had, better love and passions, a much richer, fuller existence - all eclipsed while you are under the black cloud of Islam. I almost hate Islam for the life it denied me for so long, never knowing my potential as a member of the human race. I know that potential now. I can taste it, feel it, appreciate it like never before. I penetrated that black cloud like the chick breaking out of the egg. It was like opening my eyes for the first time to a whole new alphabet of feeling and emotion. Like seeing in colour after a lifetime of black and white.

    I’ll never go back. Never. I would be a fool to. I’ve shed my skin already. My journey has only just begun, my journey of life, with new blood running through me, new verve, new growth, new days, and new hope for the first time - true, tangible hope and possibilities. And with Islam in my rear-view mirror, I have no regrets. This journey of life I am forever grateful for, and I can’t begin to describe how excited I am. I can only show those close to me, making the journey with me. And to those who accept me for who I am, and what I am, I will share myself, naked, unashamed, with arms wide open.



    OMFG ! NOW i think.. Allah actually wrote the quran to test...what fools (no offense ) would fall in that trap and will do all of that, so he would put all the slave like chars in one place. And those who reject it win somethin real i.e LIFE. 
    HATS oFF!! ishida ...this is so brilliant..i love how u articulate.

    All i know is what was told,
    All i think is what i know,
    All i am is what i think,
    All i know NOT is who i am.
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #56 - March 09, 2012, 08:45 AM

    Here is a video of good logical and rational reason to leave islam. I cant seem to post the full link.

    youtube.com/watch?v=ra9QQ58b7JY&feature=player_embedded
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #57 - March 09, 2012, 10:24 AM

    Here is a video of good logical and rational reason to leave islam. I cant seem to post the full link.

    youtube.com/watch?v=ra9QQ58b7JY&feature=player_embedded


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VY3W_H476U

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #58 - March 09, 2012, 02:56 PM

    Muslimman no need to apologize.  just wanted you to realize that many of
    us know exactly what you are going through right now. 

    Be grateful that your questioning began at such an early life.

    You are gonna be alright, Muslimman   far away hug

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: I am a Muslim and I would like to be my religion to be disproved?
     Reply #59 - March 09, 2012, 03:06 PM

    Muslimman no need to apologize.  just wanted you to realize that many of
    us know exactly what you are going through right now.  

    Be grateful that your questioning began at such an early life.

    You are gonna be alright, Muslimman   far away hug

    Naaaaahh......... It is good to apologize to people Jinn..  lol...

    well if you do something wrong., it is better to apologize like  this guy


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDvgbj3apAU

    well some of you are some times IDIOTS.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ4jYvbxTCk

     So what did Muslimman do to apologize ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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