FAO: Nasir

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FAO: Nasir
OP - February 04, 2012, 08:53 PM

I met a user called Nasir on cricket chat, we were debating about Islam, and I invited him to the forum, and he signed up.

So Nasir, I wanted to ask you why do you believe in Islam, and why do you think Islam is true?

P.S, if you look on the bottom right under this text, there is a "reply button" click that to reply to my post, then write your text and "post" it, there will be a button there to post it.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #1 - February 05, 2012, 12:37 AM

Because, I need faith to survive this hostile world. I guess, I am a weak person but faith give me the power I need to survive in this world. I challenged my faith several time but could not find any argument convincing enough. You are free to convince me otherwise.

I live in Canada have a good job and a nice loving family (4) kids.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #2 - February 05, 2012, 01:33 AM

I would recommend that you remain a Muslim if it helps you became a better father, husband , employee and citizen of Canada. More importantly if it provides you comfort in your times in need or hope for the future then why rock the boat? After all religion - or the lack of it - isn't the be all and end all of life rather it's financial security, good health and an active social life. If praying to an imaginary being makes you happy then by all means keep doing it.

The only advice I can give is that you became liberal - if you aren't already - and don't shove Islam down your children's throats. Let them decide for themselves what course of action they would like to make in their lives without burdening them with emotional baggage of remaining a Muslim. Also accept science , reinterpret your faith so it incorporates the latest discoveries; like evolution. Don't let religion impair your critical thinking and blind you from established truths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #3 - February 05, 2012, 03:26 AM

How can liberal Muslims justify 9:5, etc.? Certainly, they may say "Times were different then", but if times were different so that some commandments do not apply, how can they be in an eternally relevant divine revelation? Surely a supreme god would have better sense in distinguishing contextual from eternal commands? Plus, is it not convenient that eternal commands are those that are supported, while contextuals are those that are not?

As a Buddhist, I also choose which commands from Buddhas to follow (I shall never treat a wife as a maid), but then, I make no pretense of following infallible gods,nor do the Buddhas Since everything is causally conditioned, as Buddhism teaches, it follows that their teachings are causally conditioned. Nagarjuna was writing to an alcohol-loving young king who liked fucking other men's wives; his advice was different from that towards renounciants.

Please consider Mozi (he only theist whose works I regard as possessing merit):

Master Mozi said, “This is what's called treating habit as appropriate and custom as morally right. Formerly, east of Yue there was the country of Gai Shu. When their first son was born, they dismembered and ate him, calling this an obligation to his brothers. When their grandfather died, they carried off their grandmother and abandoned her, saying, ‘One cannot live with the wife of a ghost.’ These were treated as policy above and as custom below, performed without ceasing and held onto without letting go. But how can these really be the way of what is humane and right?” (Book 25, “Thrift in Funerals”)

How is killing adulterers, apostates, and non-Abrahamics different from eating first-born sons? One set of practices is commanded on behalf of a supreme god whose followers number in the billions, while the other was carried out by the followers of spirits of Gai Shu, whom they followed with the same devotion. How is a supreme god whose followers number in the billions differing from spirits of Gai Shu? The god is followed to this day, the spirits forgotten. If we could forget the supreme god (cease believing in him and his commandments), surely more of us would find killing adulterers, apostates, and non-Abrahamics as repulsive as eating first-born sons.

Interested in Buddhism? Check out http://www.accesstoinsight.org/!
Consider Nalanda University, and never let it happen again.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #4 - February 05, 2012, 10:43 AM

Quote from: Nasir on February 05, 2012, 12:37 AM
Because, I need faith to survive this hostile world. I guess, I am a weak person but faith give me the power I need to survive in this world. I challenged my faith several time but could not find any argument convincing enough. You are free to convince me otherwise.

I live in Canada have a good job and a nice loving family (4) kids.

Yes faith might give you comfort, that does not mean it is true. Why live a life full of lies and pointless rituals? Do you really think God who is supposed to be all-powerful really cares which hand you wipe your butt with or how many times a day you bow your head?

Here is a good video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FaNg_nxqns

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #5 - February 05, 2012, 11:29 AM

I have seen such videos many times, they are not convincing to me as they are using literal interpretations of `Mutashabiha`verses. You should try to tell me about your background and how you were convinced that Islam is incorrect.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #6 - February 05, 2012, 11:41 AM

quran 9:5 is from surah tobah. This surah is for a special situation, it is also called the verse of God`s wrath. This surah (unlike all the surah in quran) does not start with `Bismillah ar Rehman nir raheem`, which means Allah is all forgiving most merciful. It proves its status of being the surah of wrath since bismillah is not pronounced in its start. This surah is in line with the sunnah of god, who punishes those who rejected his messenger. Therefore, this surah is applicable to only kuffars of the time of muhammed and not all non-muslims coming after muhammed. I hope this answer your question.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #7 - February 05, 2012, 11:41 AM

i think you're simply burying your head in the sand -
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #8 - February 05, 2012, 11:48 AM

Quote from: Nasir on February 05, 2012, 11:29 AM
I have seen such videos many times, they are not convincing to me as they are using literal interpretations of `Mutashabiha`verses. You should try to tell me about your background and how you were convinced that Islam is incorrect.

Welcome to cemb Nasir., that is a good question for King Tut., But i like that word " `Mutashabiha`verses" I am pretty sure many readers of CEMb and millions of Muslims across the globe do not know that word and its significance.. So this is just for them. One must realize here Quran does not differentiate Mutashabiha`ayahs and Muhkam ayahs., So such differentiation of Quranic verses come from some other sources NOT from Quran.

Now question what makes you to believe or assign a verse as Mutashabiha`ayah or Muhkam ayah?? any ways..

1. Muhkam Ayahs are those ayahs (verses) that, according to the rules of the Arabic language, have only one meaning

2). Mutashabih Ayahs are those ayahs that, according to the rules of the Arabic language, can have many meanings.

i am glad that you sound like an expert of Quran.. Please continue to write and educate the folks here..

Again welcome to wrong side of the town.. lol.

with best regards
yeezevee

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #9 - February 05, 2012, 11:51 AM

Quote from: The Demba on February 05, 2012, 11:41 AM
i think you're simply burying your head in the sand -

(Clicky for piccy!)

hello Mr. Demba., you are so quick to put the head in the sand or run in to mud., I am afraid such quick decisions may not give the right results you would like to see..
in real life. But I like that picture., I am going to use it somewhere else not for Nasir and not now..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #10 - February 05, 2012, 11:52 AM

King Tut (I don`t know your real name)

I am a muslim and a humble human being. I do not impose my thoughts on others and this I have learned from reading Quran. I am at peace and completely in line with science. I do not see science in conflict with my beliefs. I am an engineer and love science. I spent lot of time studying quran and do not consider it as a book of science. It is just a message and the message is attractive for me. I do not follow ritualistic Islam and do not follow Mullahs. Infact I have many issues with these mullahs. I emphasis on faith and keeping my faith simple.

I am interested to know your background since you mentioned in the chat that you are a Pakistani. I just want to know what makes you to reject islam all together.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #11 - February 05, 2012, 11:57 AM

Quote from: Nasir on February 05, 2012, 11:52 AM
King Tut (I don`t know your real name)

I am a muslim and a humble human being. I do not impose my thoughts on others and this I have learned from reading Quran. I am at peace and completely in line with science. I do not see science in conflict with my beliefs. I am an engineer and love science. I spent lot of time studying quran and do not consider it as a book of science. It is just a message and the message is attractive for me.

There are 100s of millions of Muslims like you across the globe Nasir.. You say Message of Islam attracts you Not rituals ., But it is other way around for many folks even educated ones.. including some who were and are dear to me. ., It is NOT Quran that makes me to be close to my Muslim relatives .. it is actually rituals.. lol..

Quote
I do not follow ritualistic Islam and do not follow Mullahs. Infact I have many issues with these mullahs. I emphasis on faith and keeping my faith simple.

I am interested to know your background since you mentioned in the chat that you are a Pakistani. I just want to know what makes you to reject islam all together.

Well I too reject many things in religions including books and that goes to Islam and Quran also..

I think it is same with King Tut mylord of Punjab

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #12 - February 05, 2012, 12:17 PM

Verse 7 surah Al Imran

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

I think you are wrong when you say that Quran does not differentiate between MUhikkimah and Mutashabiha verses.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #13 - February 05, 2012, 12:19 PM

Well its your right to reject. I have no problem with you. I am here for King Tut and want to know his background....
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #14 - February 05, 2012, 12:49 PM

Quote from: Nasir on February 05, 2012, 12:19 PM
Well its your right to reject. I have no problem with you. I am here for King Tut and want to know his background....

Off course it is my right to reject and YOU MUST HAVE THE RIGHT TO follow whatever belief suits you Nasir., as long as both of us have freedom to reject openly and freedom to follow openly along with guaranteed freedom of expression in any society any where any time on the planet . I am with you on that.
Quote from: Nasir on February 05, 2012, 12:17 PM
Verse 7 surah Al Imran

Quote
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

I think you are wrong when you say that Quran does not differentiate between MUhikkimah and Mutashabiha verses.

Well it is possible I am wrong and I am willing to learn ., I have also read Quran number of times and I know that verse ., But you have not answered the rest of the question.,

How do you differentiate an ayah is a Muhkam or Mutashabih any ways

Reading that Surah Imaran verse 7.,

Quote
It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad ) the Book (this Qur'an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari).

YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding

those are basic translations .. let us think about it a bit.. suppose we take your translation., here Quran says..

And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah .

what is the point of having verses from Allah, if no one knows How to interpret them nasir? It is true Quran has some Mysterious words/verse such as

Quote
Ta Seen Meem.[Al Quran ; 28:1]

Ta Seen, [Al Quran ; 27:1]

Ta Seen Meem [Al Quran ; 26:1]

Ta Ha. [Al Quran ; 20:1]

Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad. [Al Quran ; 19:1]

Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 15:1]

Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 14:1]

Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra. [Al Quran ; 13:1]

Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 12:1]

Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 11:1]

Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 10:1]

Alif Lam Meem Sad.[Al Quran ; 7:1]

Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 3:1]

Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 2:1]

That is what I was thinking about that mysterious verses mentioned in Verse 7 of surah Al Imran

any ways please continue..

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #15 - February 05, 2012, 02:16 PM

Hi Nasir.

Quote from: Nasir on February 05, 2012, 11:52 AM
I am a muslim and a humble human being. I do not impose my thoughts on others and this I have learned from reading Quran.

Are you saying that you did not try and impose Islam onto your children and indoctrinate your children with your particular world-view? Are you saying that your children are being presented with alternatives as they grow up?
Are you saying that you constructively criticize Islam and other religions so that your children are able to acquire a wholesome perspective on this particular issue?

Are you saying that you wouldn't mind your children making a informed decision for themselves after being presented with alternatives; shed Islam as a consequence and adopt a different world-view?
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #16 - February 05, 2012, 02:19 PM

I think your original statement was `Quran does not differentiate between Muhikkimah and Mutashabiha verses. Which I have answered.

Now the other question; how we know that this verse is Mutashabiha and not Muhikkinah. It is easy ìf a verse is ordering you to do something such as what to eat or suggesting to society punishments, it is Muhikkimah. The rest are simple statements or Mutashabiha. Mutashabiha verse are those which are about the old stories and giving similitude of heaven and hell. Hence, for me it is easy to differentiate between the two. Mutshabiha verses are open for different interpretations and only Allah knows the true meaning.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #17 - February 05, 2012, 02:22 PM

answer to your question is `yes`. I have exposed them to what I believe and they are also free to study other options and have an open dialogue with me. I can only discuss what they want to be but can not and will not force anything on them.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #18 - February 05, 2012, 02:44 PM

Hi Nasir

Quote
I do not impose my thoughts on others and this I have learned from reading Quran.

If you've learned this from the Quran, why do you think it not more understood and practised? A feature of Islam as practised through history and contemporaneously has been the urgency with which it has imposed itself, as an imperialism, as a political movement, as a prosletysing and evangelical religion that makes demands of non Muslims, and seeks to expand itself through conversion and coercion of believers and non believers?

Do you believe that Islam has just been colossally misinterpreted by Muslims throughout history and in the present day too?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #19 - February 05, 2012, 02:50 PM

Quote from: Nasir on February 05, 2012, 02:19 PM
I think your original statement was `Quran does not differentiate between Muhikkimah and Mutashabiha verses. Which I have answered.

yes my original statement was that and you have answered., but again I say Quran with that ayah 7 from Surah Imaran doesn't really differentiate which verse is Muhikkimah and and which one is Mutashabiha., It is certainly not clear to me and many millions of Muslims which verse is Muhikkimah., after all Quran says
Quote
A book that fully and clearly explains everything,

   … Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail… . 6:114

   … And We have sent down on thee the Book making clear everything, and as a guidance and a mercy, and as good tidings to those who surrender. . 16:89

   A Book whereof the Verses are explained in detail; A Qur'an in Arabic for people who know . 41:3

So would it not be easy to say for e.g 6:114 is Mutashabiha or 41:3 is Muhikkimah and clearly specify for each verse ??

Quote
Now the other question; how we know that this verse is Mutashabiha and not Muhikkinah. It is easy ìf a verse is ordering you to do something such as what to eat or suggesting to society punishments, it is Muhikkimah. The rest are simple statements or Mutashabiha. Mutashabiha verse are those which are about the old stories and giving similitude of heaven and hell. Hence, for me it is easy to differentiate between the two. Mutshabiha verses are open for different interpretations and only Allah knows the true meaning.

You may say it is easy for you but certainly not easy for me specially when you are talking about punishing society using those verses that are Muhikkimah.,

I also have as many or more academic degrees as you have ., Off course I have not taught Quran in Madarasa but you know I read it up and down many times. It is possible I am not as intelligent as you., But I think people like me would be better off knowing which verse goes where specially when you are trying lash and stone people using some verses in Quran.

Anyways ., I would greatly appreciate if you could help me separating Mutashabiha verses from Muhikkimah verses..

with best
yeezevee

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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #20 - February 05, 2012, 02:59 PM

Quote from: The Demba on February 05, 2012, 11:41 AM
i think you're simply burying your head in the sand -

(Clicky for piccy!)

I dont think this is the right way to argue, the least you can do is ask him some questions without resorting to Ad hominem attack

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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #21 - February 05, 2012, 03:04 PM

Quote
I do not impose my thoughts on others and this I have learned from reading Quran.

Just to add another question.....why do you believe that you only possess this admirable quality, because you have received instructions do so from the Quran, rather than because of your own admirable moral sense and personal qualities?

There are billions of people around the world who feel the same way, who are not Muslim, and so have not learned it from instructions via the Quran.

So what is so special about the Quran? Why do you diminish your own moral autonomy and personal sense of decency, by ascribing your moral sense to a book? Which judging by the criteria you have mentioned, is widely disregarded amongst Muslims, the ones who believe they are divinely instructed to struggle to impose their religious views on others, and which is utterly irrelevant to developing this sensibility amongst billions of non Muslims?

Trust in your own decency Nasir, you are a good person because you have independent moral agency and autonomy. You have not been granted that by any supposedly divine text.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #22 - February 05, 2012, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Nasir on February 05, 2012, 11:52 AM
King Tut (I don`t know your real name)

I am a muslim and a humble human being.

I am an Atheist and I am a human being.

Quote
I do not impose my thoughts on others and this I have learned from reading Quran.

You may not, but Islam does, and it's teachings. In fact you're a bad Muslim if you don't impose Islam on others. As a Muslim it is your duty to convert non-Muslims to Muslims.
Quote
I am at peace and completely in line with science.

Not if you follow the Qu'ran, the Qu'ran describes a geocentric universe with half elliptical orbits or the sun and moon. The sun running along a path and going under the throne of Allah etc, the earth being older then the stars, earth being created for the creation of stars.

Quote
I do not see science in conflict with my beliefs.

Well you don't understand science if you actually think that, I can point out many scientific errors in the Qu'ran from embryology to errors about cosmology and plate-tectonics.

Quote
I am an engineer and love science. I spent lot of time studying quran and do not consider it as a book of science.

OK, but then you equally can't claim it does not conflict with science, and is scientifically accurate.

Quote
It is just a message and the message is attractive for me. I do not follow ritualistic Islam and do not follow Mullahs.

So you just make up your own Islam?

Quote
Infact I have many issues with these mullahs. I emphasis on faith and keeping my faith simple.

So do you follow the Qu'ran and hadith? if not, then this discussion will be pointless, then for all intent and purposes you're not a Muslim.

Quote
I am interested to know your background since you mentioned in the chat that you are a Pakistani. I just want to know what makes you to reject islam all together.

I am a British Pakistani, and I left Islam because Islam carried internal and external contradictions. The whole idea of a God is fallacious, such an entity as described by religious scriptures cannon possibly exist. So therefore, I do not believe in a God (there is no evidence, and the described arbitrates of God are logically incompatible.) thus, I am an atheist. I want to see the complete eradication of all religions.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #23 - February 05, 2012, 03:51 PM

Welcome Nasir! Don't let anyone bully you into what to believe in. Muslim, Atheist, Christian its all a label to get us all fighting each other. Just focus on being a good person. At the end of the day it's how you treat others.

Most of us here reject Islam because of its views against non-Muslims, and some of the things
Muhammad did which makes no sense for a man to be admired, (owning slaves/ Making rules for slavery like it was going to be around forever, marrying a 9 year old, allowing stoning and cruel punishments for non-violent crimes, preaching vengeance, leading wars and sleeping with wives after killing their husbands, being greedy and having multiple wives, using fear of hell-fire and judgement, to persuade converts instead of genuine truth & honesty, forbiding anyone to question Islam, mocking and ridiculing other religions throughout the Quran, inequality of women through less shares in inheritance, saying 2 female witnesses equals one male, forbidding women to leave home without an escort, forbidding women/ discouraging women to take care of themselves without a male. etc. ) Those things may have been the norm back then. But right now all of those things are outdated and repulsive.

But again if those things don't have too much of an influence on you, then just go on with your life. Just make sure you are honest with yourself with what you think is right, and treat others with respect Muslim or not.

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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #24 - February 05, 2012, 04:12 PM

Sorry to say this Nasir, but you show a lack of understanding for the juridical inquiry in the sharia of Islam. The sharia is based on the far more fallible anecdotes of the sunnah(tradition) of the prophet, yet we are to believe that the anecdotes that reside in the Quran are to be dismissed as mere bedtime stories for the inquisitive of Islamic history, and not as a guidance for the believers, as opposed to the more fallible hadith? I highly doubt it. In that case, the Quran would be redundant in that it contains irrelevant information.

It is equivalent of a cooking recipe containing information on how the second marriage of the chef in question crashed because he served the chicken a la king with too much salt. The person who is merely interested in the recipe will find it rather inane that such anecdotes exist, unless they serve a driving purpose! Hence, why these historical snippets supposedly exist in the Quran. It is to guide human beings!

You can obviously hide behind cultural relativism, in which case you shoot yourself in the foot. Muhammed was no doubt a man of his time, in which case it is where him and his actions ought to reside. In that period!

I am the last person to take passages(and verses) out of context, merely because it ends up backfiring in the debate. However, once the context is established and the ruling is derived, one can not merely dismiss it as “mutashabiha”. Mutashabiha is fancy term for “do whatever the fuck you want to do with this verse”.

The jurisprudence of Islamic law, if you knew this or not my friend, is derived from these mutashabihat, whether one agrees with it or not.

Here is a more direct verse for you. You care to explain to me where I can find justice in this verse?

"As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a retribution for their deed and exemplary punishment from Allah and Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.” 5:38

Quote from: yeezevee on May 03, 2011, 09:40 AM
Grouchy what is the good reason for picking up an innocent girl as Osama bin Laden?
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #25 - February 05, 2012, 04:18 PM

Those who say, "I am good because of a God's commandment" leave themselves vulnerable, for an alleged God could tell them to do bad things (such as following 9:5 literally all the time).

Those who say "I am good because of a guru's commandment" leave themselves vulnerable, for a guru could tell them to do bad things (such as assassinate his political enemies or commit arson).

Truly, we must in this and in many other things follow the Middle Path. WE must recognize our morality, treasure it, listen to it, and change it if necessary so that others are helped rather than harmed. By all means we should follow gurus (Buddhists, preferably), for they can be very wise and helpful, but we must never allow them to order us to do bad things (killing, stealing, raping, drug-using, and lying), for these acts violate morality. I am a Buddhist because Buddhism provides advice and guidance without inciting evils. There are bad sects of Buddhism, but I avoid them and am repelled by them.

Maybe the same attitude can apply to gods, but if that were the case, they would not be supreme authorities (Nagarjuna, at least, explicitly takes this approach, and the Shakyamuni Buddha taught Gods and men according to the Pali Canon). And what Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Zoroastrian, etc., would wish to hold that? It would undercut the point of their theism: to receive ultimate moral rulings from the Supreme God (or manifestations thereof), that due to their source cannot be challenged.

Grouchy: From a twisted perspective, cutting off hands for theft is justice, if Justice be defined as one punishment applied to all who commit a crime: theft is punished for all people alike, without consideration of status, religion, or sex. Yet it is not just due to its harshness. That which is equal is not always equitable.

Interested in Buddhism? Check out http://www.accesstoinsight.org/!
Consider Nalanda University, and never let it happen again.
- nesrin
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #26 - February 05, 2012, 04:21 PM

hi Nasir..

indeed, sometimes man has to believe in the unbelievable to do great things ..
the hardest thing i had to do was force myself to see Islam as a religion.. i forced myself to see all sides of islam, not just the islam i chose to live under a secular government..
one of the hardest things i had to do was see Islam through the eyes of a humanist..
and so the "unbelieveable" i needed to do great things, became an obstacle to even greater things..

hi and welcome...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
- Nasir
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #27 - February 05, 2012, 04:50 PM

Islam is misinterpreted and misunderstood in modern times for sure. All through history, it has not been as perfect as it should be but the atrocities attributed to the religion has its roots in culture. Atrocities committed by some muslim rulers was not caused by religion; but religion was used to justify them. This is a good example of misinterpretation of Islam. In modern. times Wahabi ideology is a good example of this misinterpretation.
- Nasir
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #28 - February 05, 2012, 04:52 PM

Thanks, I agree with your feelings and comments but not 100%. I believe your interpretation and experience of islam is not in line with the true teachings of Islam. I also went through that phase.
- moi
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Re: FAO: Nasir
Reply #29 - February 05, 2012, 04:54 PM

Is truth important?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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