Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #210 - February 21, 2012, 01:23 AM

Quote from: strangestdude on February 21, 2012, 01:18 AM
You missed the central point...

Our decision making process is complex and determined by genetics, stimulus, and environment. The point was that your 'pull yourself together' extortion to eating disorder suffers displayed a superficial understanding of human consciousness.

Whether you like it or not what we experience as exercising our will, or conscious decisions are actually determined...

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04/is-free-will-an/

We do make decisions - noone denies that - but the point is it's a determined process, whether we like the idea or not.

Ok fine, but I'm not disagreeing with any of that and never have been. Just about everything I have said in this thread has been qualified at some point. Example:

Quote from: osmanthus on February 19, 2012, 08:07 PM
Of course. I'm not saying that people with genuine pathology don't deserve respect and consideration. It's still bonkers to assign responsibility to external factors though.

I could claim your post missed the central point of my post too. I was making a point about people spuriously claiming to be victims.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #211 - February 21, 2012, 01:34 AM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on February 21, 2012, 01:23 AM
Not desperately win. Truth be told - well before i read there were people who blamed size-zero on the sexuality of gay fashion designers I had already come to position that heterosexual older men in the media (older ones usually hold the purse strings) were pushing their tastes on how women should look and act in society and as knock on influence children. I had not thought about the bisexual/gay men influence has on how society should look and act, the fashion industry is one where we can see that.

This is all hearsay just like you always do.My bad, its my fault for taking your speculative posts seriously.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #212 - February 21, 2012, 01:37 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2012, 01:02 AM
But we've already been over that. I explained several contraindications that seemed to invalidate that theory.

To take the most obvious one, why is there no selection pressure for androgynous faces?

FFS - Rewriting this, dont know what happened, thought I had posted it. It went something like this.

I have yet to tackle your contraindications - working my way throught he backlog - yet to get that post - most probably tomorrow lol

As for selection pressure for androgynous faces - You mean in evolutionary terms? Personally think males are being feminised and females masculinised perhaps readdressing the imbalance, but that is the long term.

Do you expect that the human population to show selection pressure via the influence of gay designers in the fashion world? Hell gay fashion designers can't influence those women in rnb videos or nuts magazines or playboy, let alone general society, no their influence at the moment is in the fashion industry. And this real push for constant supply of size zero has been what 20 years? "0 yaers ago the likes of Cindy Crawford, Christy Turlington, Helena Christensen and Naomi Cambell were positively amazonian in comparison.

Or do you mean selection pressure in the looks of catwalk models currently being used ? If thjat is the cse then we have had our first male model model female fashion on a high-profile catwalk. How long before some designers uses all men, androgynous enough for you? We will ahve to seee what the future brings.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #213 - February 21, 2012, 01:40 AM

Quote from: Cato on February 21, 2012, 01:34 AM
This is all hearsay just like you always do.My bad, its my fault for taking your speculative posts seriously.

Like I said they are theories lol. But are you seriously suggesting the media places no pressure on women (and men)to look and act in certain ways.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #214 - February 21, 2012, 01:44 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2012, 01:23 AM
I could claim your post missed the central point of my post too. I was making a point about people spuriously claiming to be victims.

Posts like this...

Quote from: osmanthus on February 20, 2012, 07:40 AM
Being a victim is intensely debilitating. As long as you assign power to external factors you are taking it away from yourself. Fuck the media. It throws all sorts of shit at me too, but I'm not obliged to take any notice.

Quote from: osmanthus on February 19, 2012, 07:35 PM
I blame silly people who are bonkers enough to starve themselves.

Reflected little empathy for eating disorder suffers, and the complexity of the issue IMO.

Though I'm not saying that cultural conditioning is the sole factor, because I know that it's not.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #215 - February 21, 2012, 01:50 AM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on February 21, 2012, 01:37 AM
Or do you mean selection pressure in the looks of catwalk models currently being used ?

Obviously that is what I mean. We are talking about runway models after all, not the global human population. You are claiming that there is a selection pressure for androgynous body types, and that this is a result of the sexual preferences of gay designers. In that case, an obvious question is "Why not select for androgynous faces too?". A next obvious question is "Do these designers show any marked preference for young boys when choosing sexual partners?"

Another question would be "Given that the trend towards near-anorexic models has only occurred over the last couple of decades, and given that gay men have been in the fashion industry all along, what has caused the change in models?"

If your "theory" can't account for these factors, then it's not seeming very robust. I have no doubt that gay men have a substantial influence within the fashion industry, but when analysing problems with that industry we need something a bit better than "ZOMFG, teh fudgepackers are running the world and are taking over our brainz!"

As far as I can tell, although the "they want them to look like young boys" line may be obvious and convenient for some, it doesn't really seem to stand up to scrutiny. It looks to me like a better explanation is required.

Quote
If thjat is the cse then we have had our first male model model female fashion on a high-profile catwalk. How long before some designers uses all men, androgynous enough for you? We will ahve to seee what the future brings.

IOW, no real evidence for it yet. Ok.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #216 - February 21, 2012, 01:52 AM

Quote from: strangestdude on February 21, 2012, 01:44 AM
Posts like this...

Reflected little empathy for eating disorder suffers, and the complexity of the issue IMO.

The first quote there does reflect some empathy, IMO. Would you rather tell people that they are totally helpless?

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #217 - February 21, 2012, 01:55 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2012, 01:50 AM
Obviously that is what I mean. We are talking about runway models after all, not the global human population. You are claiming that there is a selection pressure for androgynous body types, and that this is a result of the sexual preferences of gay designers. In that case, an obvious question is "Why not select for androgynous faces too?". A next obvious question is "Do these designers show any marked preference for young boys when choosing sexual partners?"

Another question would be "Given that the trend towards near-anorexic models has only occurred over the last couple of decades, and given that gay men have been in the fashion industry all along, what has caused the change in models?"

If your "theory" can't account for these factors, then it's not seeming very robust. I have no doubt that gay men have a substantial influence within the fashion industry, but when analysing problems with that industry we need something a bit better than "ZOMFG, teh fudgepackers are running the world and are taking over our brainz!"

As far as I can tell, although the "they want them to look like young boys" line may be obvious and convenient for some, it doesn't really seem to stand up to scrutiny. It looks to me like a better explanation is required.

IOW, no real evidence for it yet. Ok.

Good night osmanthus, like I said I have yet to tackle your contrainications, I will attempt so tomorrow or next appearance.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #218 - February 21, 2012, 03:16 AM

Quote from: Raccoon Rapist on February 20, 2012, 11:28 PM
Despite an excellent and cogent late entry by strangestdude that makes some very good points, The Rapist declares this thread played-out and now boring.

I'm going to have to agree. Even if it was my own callous, slightly douchy (fuck it, thats how I felt at the time) rant that sent it in this cliched direction.

Free-will vs. Determinism

Round 51,890,789,135! Fight!!!

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #219 - February 21, 2012, 12:48 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2012, 01:52 AM
The first quote there does reflect some empathy, IMO. Would you rather tell people that they are totally helpless?

A previous post indirectly answered this...

(check the underlined)

Quote from: strangestdude on February 20, 2012, 11:23 PM
Behavioral Health: Mental illness, addiction, obesity, and other behavioral disorders are too often misunderstood as failures of will. Instead, we can understand dysfunctional behavior as fully caused by the interaction of genetic and environmental factors. This understanding reduces the stigma associated with behavioral disorders, while pointing the way toward effective treatment. Naturalism supports the development of psychotherapeutic and self-change techniques that apply a causal view of behavior. Properly presented, challenging conventional wisdom about the self and free will is a powerful means to increase life satisfaction and deepen interpersonal relationships. See Addiction and Behavioral Health. - http://www.naturalism.org/conseque.htm

Your posts came across to me as 'pull your socks up' folk psychology. I apologize if I'm mistaken.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #220 - February 21, 2012, 12:57 PM

Sometimes "pull your socks up" is the most appropriate response and has the desired effect. It depends on the circumstances.

What I was originally reacting to was the idea that women were victims of the media/fashion industry/whatever, and that therefore the media/fashion industry/whatever was responsible for the problems some people have.

A more realistic conclusion, IMHO, is that if you are fucked up then what is causing your problems is that you are fucked up. You may have good reasons for being fucked up, but you can't use that to try and assign culpability to the output of industries that plenty of other people deal without without any ill effects.

Sure, if someone is genuinely fucked up then you have to tailor your responses to them to get the best effect if you want them to progress. That doesn't change the basics though. They are still the ones with the problem. Trying to place the blame elsewhere wont help.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #221 - February 21, 2012, 01:11 PM

Because responsibility must lie with one agent?
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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #222 - February 21, 2012, 01:23 PM

Not always. However if one person decides to destroy themselves as a result of whatever the media is spewing this week, and another person doesn't, would that tell you anything?

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #223 - February 21, 2012, 01:25 PM

Decides to?
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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #224 - February 21, 2012, 01:28 PM

Don't bother with the semantics. Just deal with the gist of it.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #225 - February 21, 2012, 01:30 PM

Based on that information, no...
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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #226 - February 21, 2012, 01:33 PM

Ok. Well in that case I pity your inability to draw reasonable conclusions from what is in front of you. Have a nice day.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #227 - February 21, 2012, 01:35 PM

Please don't tell me your point is that it shows it's possible to not destroy yourself as a result of media spewing. Cos that's just fucking retarded.
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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #228 - February 21, 2012, 01:37 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2012, 01:23 PM
Not always. However if one person decides to destroy themselves as a result of whatever the media is spewing this week, and another person doesn't, would that tell you anything?

It would tell me what's influencing the behaviour is multifaceted, and I wouldn't ignore a correlation between culture and eating disorders.

Advertising, and the media is an extremely persuasive multi-billion dollar industry, and it's influence on society ranges from benign trends to contributing to psychological disorders - I don't think it's disservice to highlight it's negative influences.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #229 - February 21, 2012, 01:38 PM

No. My point is that in both cases the media output is the same. The only difference is in the two people concerned. IOW, it's not the media output that is the core problem.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #230 - February 21, 2012, 01:40 PM

It doesn't automatically follow that the media is not the biggest problem. Just that it's not the only factor. Nor does the media not-being the biggest problem absolve it.
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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #231 - February 21, 2012, 01:51 PM

Like I've been trying to show - there isn't a 'core', it's a multifaceted issue. Like I said environment, stimulus and genetics influence our decision making processes, all 3 influence us to engage in specific behaviours (of course the percentage of influence is indeterminable).

Do you engage in any self-destructive behaviour? (ie. smoking) If so, why do you persist despite knowing that it's self-destructive?

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #232 - February 21, 2012, 01:52 PM

Ok, when we're talking about really destructive behaviour like anorexia it pays to remember that it's not common. The internet can seem like a distillation of the world's mental issues at times, but in real life I've met and interacted with a lot of women over the last half a century. I've been trying hard to think of one who was actually anorexic when I knew her. I haven't been able to. This shit is a pretty rare aberration, in terms of the general population.

When you're talking about comparatively rare aberrant behaviour, it seems to me that you should be phrasing things more carefully rather than just trying to assign responsibility to everyday factors that are harmless to most people. IOW, rather than saying that the advertising industry is responsible for someone's anorexia, it would make more sense to say that the person in question had a rare psychological disorder that caused them to react badly to whatever.

As an analogy, if someone has a mental health issue that causes them to go apeshit when someone calls them "dude", that's not a reason to go around claiming that saying dude victimises everyone and that people who say dude are responsible for all sorts of crap.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #233 - February 21, 2012, 01:55 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on February 21, 2012, 01:51 PM
Like I've been trying to show - there isn't a 'core', it's a multifaceted issue. Like I said environment, stimulus and genetics influence our decision making processes, all 3 influence us to engage in specific behaviours (of course the percentage of influence is indeterminable).

Do you engage in any self-destructive behaviour? (ie. smoking) If so, why do you persist despite knowing that it's self-destructive?

I used to smoke years ago, but I never held anyone or anything else responsible for it. I always regarded it as my responsibility and mine only.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #234 - February 21, 2012, 02:05 PM

I've repeatedly stated that self-destructive behaviours are a multifaceted issue - you're the one (seemingly) assigning responsibly to one factor ie. exercising will.

So you don't currently engage in any self-destructive behaviour that is ostensibly preventable like poor diet choices, a lack of exercise, etc?

Every human being I know makes irrational choices in regards to their well-being, either chronically or occasionally - I highly doubt you are the exception. And so, why do you persist despite knowing that it's self destructive?

The point that I'm repeatedly trying to get across to you is; your 'will' - or the self aware aspect of our consciousness - is not in supreme control of your behaviour, that's folk psychology.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #235 - February 21, 2012, 02:08 PM

http://www.chatelaine.com/en/blog/post/30178--children-with-anorexia-it-s-a-growing-problem

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #236 - February 21, 2012, 02:15 PM

I know that. The point I'm trying to get across is twofold. First is that claiming certain factors are responsible is, in these sorts of cases, frequently an attempt to assign blame to other parties.

It depends what you mean when using the word "responsible". If you mean that such and such can act as a triggering factor for certain behaviour in certain people, that's one thing. It's not normally used purely in that sense though. People naturally want something to blame for their problems. Assigning blame is a different kettle of fish. That is something that should not be done lightly.

Second is that assigning responsibility to factors outside of yourself is self-limiting and debilitating. You may have certain genetic and psychological constraints, but you have more chance of doing something about them if you think you can. Negative mindsets tend to be self-perpetuating and to get worse with time. So regardless of whether you actually have free will or not, it's an advantage to behave as if you do.

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #237 - February 21, 2012, 02:18 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on February 21, 2012, 02:05 PM
self-destructive behaviors ......................

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bavou_SEj1E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ooMMue-qwQ

too many rapes ..too much sex and too many women are being raped too much in American Military ..

I like tat wording of that 2nd lady., liz tortilla.. .. Yap self destructive behavior..

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #238 - February 21, 2012, 03:07 PM

Die thread, DIE!

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Re: Isabelle Caro, the face of anorexia, dies at 28
Reply #239 - February 21, 2012, 03:16 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 21, 2012, 02:15 PM
It depends what you mean when using the word "responsible". If you mean that such and such can act as a triggering factor for certain behaviour in certain people, that's one thing. It's not normally used purely in that sense though. People naturally want something to blame for their problems. Assigning blame is a different kettle of fish. That is something that should not be done lightly.

Perhaps the problem with our discussion is wording. Contribution is a better term IMO than responsibility and blame.

I think most people here are arguing that the media contributes to the problem.

My point was; what contributes to our decisions are multifaceted, involving environmental, stimulatory and genetic factors.

Quote
Second is that assigning responsibility to factors outside of yourself is self-limiting and debilitating. You may have certain genetic and psychological constraints, but you have more chance of doing something about them if you think you can. Negative mindsets tend to be self-perpetuating and to get worse with time. So regardless of whether you actually have free will or not, it's an advantage to behave as if you do.

I disagree. Acknowledging that subliminal influences and social environment effects our decision making processes is a very important part of helping to heal psychological issues.

For example; If someone has a drug addiction, staying in the same drug taking circle of friends is a fucking bad idea. And often accountability, and a social support structure is crucial to change. Changing the influence of stimulus and environment is crucial to making better decisions.

Social psychology is very insightful in showing how our decisions are influenced by our social environment and culture.

http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/11/10-piercing-insights-into-human-nature.php

IME and IMO acting as if our will is in supreme control of consciousness invites unrealistic expectations, poor planning and unnecessary guilt.

If I try really hard, I'll change X about myself. Regardless of what stimulus and environment I'm exposed to.

If I can't change X about myself, it's due to my failure of exercising will.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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