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 Topic: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video

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  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #30 - December 16, 2011, 06:51 PM

    Ignore Abood he is being an idiot. I wanted to ask you a question, how do you choose what source to use. I think Muhammed might have thought the earth to be flat, and the reason for this is the hadith, the hadith, Burkari and Muslim are considered by mainstream Sunni Muslims just as important as the Qu'ran, and in these hadith Muhammed tries to describe earth and the sun, he basically states that the sun is running along a set path, and hides under the throne of Allah, and then Allah gives it permission and then the sun comes out etc. The description basically is a semicircle in the sky from the perspective of a human standing on the earth and looking up at the sky. I think Muhammed thought the earth was flat.

    Sahih Al-Bukhari
    Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
    Narrated Abu Dharr:
    The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" (36.38)

    Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:
    Narrated Abu Dharr:
    I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: ‘And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by ‘Abdullah.

    Volume 9, Book 93, Number 528:
    Narrated Abu Dharr:
    I asked the Prophet regarding the Verse:--'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term decreed for it.' (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

    Sahih Muslim

    Book 001, Number 0297:
    It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.




    From the script of my next video response:


    Here the Rationalizer falsely assumes that the hadith is mentioned a flat earth model simply because the “Sun prostrated under the Throne”.  First, he makes the error that somehow the throne is below the earth. This is false, as shown by Ibn Kathir:

    36:38

    And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the decree of the Almighty, the All- Knowing.
    There are two views over the meaning of the phrase (on its fixed course for a term (appointed)).

    The first view is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, beyond the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the roof of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is a dome supported by legs or pillars, carried by the angels, and it is above the universe, above the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. At that point it prostrates and asks for permission to rise, as mentioned in the Hadiths.


    Further, as we’ve already proven, Ibn Kathir has given substantial evidence to the contrary of the flat earth model. So we already know that he and the earlier Muslims did not believe the Earth was flat. Given this, what sort of conception does Ibn Kathir have in mind when explaining this model?

    Note that Ibn Kathir claims that the Zenith point is the highest point at which the sun rotates around the earth and that at midnight, it is at its lowest point. Also note that he claims there are 4 orbits. These 4 orbits are actually in reference to the different points at which the sun rises and sets. Each orbit  is a full cycle for a particular place on the planet, according to the earlier Muslims, as they had no conception that there was any land at the lower points of the Earth. The following illustration should make this clear:

    [illustration]

    They obviously conceived of a universal midday and midnight. The midday would be the middle point at which light would cover the entirety of the northern earth, whereas, at midnight, the entire northern portion of the earth would be covered in night. The first orbit would be when the Sun literally would begin to rise, whereas at the Zenith point it would literally begin to set.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #31 - December 16, 2011, 06:52 PM

    Dawafilms, why do you have to act so insecure ?

    you know well what I meant by Mental Acrobatics don't try to play like u don't understand it.


    You also know well I was responding to a mere unsubstantiated rhetorical jab with one of my own.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #32 - December 16, 2011, 06:53 PM

    They followed a geocentric model based on the Ptolemic System. The orbits could go horizontally and not vertically in said system. If you also read Ibn Kathir (and even Tafsir al-Jalalayn, despite the flat earth endorsement) you will find that they both believed the sun was "far away" from the Earth.

    Also note, if these mountains at the edge were even conceived, the sun would still give light throughout the day to every point on Earth if it was flat because the mountains would block the sun from either extreme point.


    I'm still struggling to see how this fits even a Ptolemaic model. Maybe you should include in your video a diagram and explain what you think each half of the sentence means when it says the tree is not in each of the two places. I think you ought to also mention the other things ibn Kathir says just after it (which I quoted) so your viewers can fairly judge.

    Perhaps this is what you think it means:
    When it mentions the first part of the day and sunset, it means those times from the point of view of Arabia. In the first part of the day in Arabia, a tree in the far east would not receive any light as the sun has moved out of sight from the tree (actually it would be more like midday there, but lets assume ibn Kathir didn't know that).

    Similarly, a tree in the far west wouldn't start to see sunlight til it is around sunset Arabia-time. The sun would be visible near the western horizon in Arabia, and near the eastern horizon for the tree in the far west.

    If that's what you think it means, then what would ibn Kathir think the analogy was trying to say? It only makes sense if the tree's position affects the amount of sunlight it receives. In a spherical earth model (Ptolemaic or heliocentric), the tree would get the same amount of sunlight wherever it is as far as I can tell.

    More likely either the translation of the first part of the sentence is wrong, or the Arabic got mistranscribed at some point. The second half of the sentence fits what he says beneath about east side=no sun in evening, west side=none in morning, which I quoted. Also in the Arabic it doesn't use the word ard (land). It just says eastern بقعتها and western فيقلص (I don't know what those words mean - you should probably find out if you're going to use this thing).
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #33 - December 16, 2011, 07:00 PM

    Where's that hadith? I don't think I've read it before.  dance


    I am not sure bro but I know I have read it somewhere.

  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #34 - December 16, 2011, 07:02 PM

    You also know well I was responding to a mere unsubstantiated rhetorical jab with one of my own.


    hmmmm I don't think so.

    I stated some points there which u missed and jumped on the fact where I mentioned Mental Acrobatics.

  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #35 - December 16, 2011, 07:07 PM

    From the script of my next video response:


    Here the Rationalizer falsely assumes that the hadith is mentioned a flat earth model simply because the “Sun prostrated under the Throne”.  First, he makes the error that somehow the throne is below the earth. This is false, as shown by Ibn Kathir:

    36:38

    And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the decree of the Almighty, the All- Knowing.
    There are two views over the meaning of the phrase (on its fixed course for a term (appointed)).

    The first view is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, beyond the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the roof of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is a dome supported by legs or pillars, carried by the angels, and it is above the universe, above the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. At that point it prostrates and asks for permission to rise, as mentioned in the Hadiths.




    What a load of Muhammed hairly old bollocks! You really believe this none sense? Fucking wake-up!

    I take it that gulliable Sahabee actually thought of the above when Muhammed was telling him where the sun goes, yeah?  Roll Eyes

    The hadith is clear as day, stop trying to change it to something else.


    Quote
    urther, as we’ve already proven, Ibn Kathir has given substantial evidence to the contrary of the flat earth model. So we already know that he and the earlier Muslims did not believe the Earth was flat. Given this, what sort of conception does Ibn Kathir have in mind when explaining this model?

    Note that Ibn Kathir claims that the Zenith point is the highest point at which the sun rotates around the earth and that at midnight, it is at its lowest point. Also note that he claims there are 4 orbits. These 4 orbits are actually in reference to the different points at which the sun rises and sets. Each orbit  is a full cycle for a particular place on the planet, according to the earlier Muslims, as they had no conception that there was any land at the lower points of the Earth. The following illustration should make this clear:

    [illustration]

    They obviously conceived of a universal midday and midnight. The midday would be the middle point at which light would cover the entirety of the northern earth, whereas, at midnight, the entire northern portion of the earth would be covered in night. The first orbit would be when the Sun literally would begin to rise, whereas at the Zenith point it would literally begin to set.


    I don't care what Ibn Kathir thought. I want to know why your supposed prophet of God, Muhammed (My shit be upon him) foolishly assumed the world was flat?

  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #36 - December 16, 2011, 07:08 PM

    From the script of my next video response:


    Here the Rationalizer falsely assumes that the hadith is mentioned a flat earth model simply because the “Sun prostrated under the Throne”.  First, he makes the error that somehow the throne is below the earth. This is false, as shown by Ibn Kathir:

    36:38

    And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the decree of the Almighty, the All- Knowing.
    There are two views over the meaning of the phrase (on its fixed course for a term (appointed)).

    The first view is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, beyond the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the roof of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is a dome supported by legs or pillars, carried by the angels, and it is above the universe, above the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. At that point it prostrates and asks for permission to rise, as mentioned in the Hadiths.


    Further, as we’ve already proven, Ibn Kathir has given substantial evidence to the contrary of the flat earth model. So we already know that he and the earlier Muslims did not believe the Earth was flat. Given this, what sort of conception does Ibn Kathir have in mind when explaining this model?

    Note that Ibn Kathir claims that the Zenith point is the highest point at which the sun rotates around the earth and that at midnight, it is at its lowest point. Also note that he claims there are 4 orbits. These 4 orbits are actually in reference to the different points at which the sun rises and sets. Each orbit  is a full cycle for a particular place on the planet, according to the earlier Muslims, as they had no conception that there was any land at the lower points of the Earth. The following illustration should make this clear:

    [illustration]

    They obviously conceived of a universal midday and midnight. The midday would be the middle point at which light would cover the entirety of the northern earth, whereas, at midnight, the entire northern portion of the earth would be covered in night. The first orbit would be when the Sun literally would begin to rise, whereas at the Zenith point it would literally begin to set.



    1.) The sun doesn't rotate around the earth, the earth rotates around the sun, so are you saying Ibn Kithar was wrong?  
    2.) How do you come to the conclusion that the Throne of Allah is a domed shape etc.  
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #37 - December 16, 2011, 07:14 PM

    What a load of Muhammed hairly old bollocks! You really believe this none sense? Fucking wake-up!

    I take it that gulliable Sahabee actually thought of the above when Muhammed was telling him where the sun goes, yeah?  Roll Eyes

    The hadith is clear as day, stop trying to change it to something else.


    I don't care what Ibn Kathir thought. I want to know why your supposed prophet of God, Muhammed (My shit be upon him) foolishly assumed the world was flat?




    So you only care about Tafsirs and interpretation of hadith when they appear to affirm your viewpoint?

    Well I can see where this conversation is going.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #38 - December 16, 2011, 07:16 PM

    1.) The sun doesn't rotate around the earth, the earth rotates around the sun, so are you saying Ibn Kithar was wrong?  
    2.) How do you come to the conclusion that the Throne of Allah is a domed shape etc.  


    1) I already stated that the early Muslims believed in a geocentric model, so yeah, he and Muhammad were incorrect about where the sun "goes".

    2) Its irrelevant to the accusation being put forth. The point is that the Throne was never below the Earth and has NEVER been perceived as such by the early Muslims. The Throne was always above creation.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #39 - December 16, 2011, 07:29 PM

    So you only care about Tafsirs and interpretation of hadith when they appear to affirm your viewpoint?

    Well I can see where this conversation is going.


    Errr, no, the hadith is clear cut to see. Why is there a need for a tafsir? Why should I listen to all the twists that you Islam apologetics put around it? You're coming across as really foolish, ignorant and gullible. Wake the fuck-up man..... it's so obvious to see that Muhammed was on about the sun's movement around the earth. (Which is all wrong, of course.)  Are you telling me that companion of his actually thought otherwise?

    Fucking ignorant twats you lot are.

  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #40 - December 16, 2011, 07:31 PM

    Look, "The Demba", if you can only read hadith and ayah in isolation then you have no business interpreting them. The Throne, as conceived within Muslim theology (something you should know since being an ex-Muslim apparently makes you a scholar) has always been above creation.

    So unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #41 - December 16, 2011, 07:43 PM

    Hi Dawahfilms. How are you.

    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #42 - December 16, 2011, 07:50 PM

    Salaam, how are you? I'm okay.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #43 - December 16, 2011, 07:52 PM

    1) I already stated that the early Muslims believed in a geocentric model, so yeah, he and Muhammad were incorrect about where the sun "goes".

    2) Its irrelevant to the accusation being put forth. The point is that the Throne was never below the Earth and has NEVER been perceived as such by the early Muslims. The Throne was always above creation.


    1.) Are you saying Prophet Mohammed?
    2.) I don't disagree with you on the Throne being above creation, that makes the must sense, I am not inclined to agree with that the throne is under the earth (from a flat perspective) the problem of the throne is, that is the throne psychical, if so why cannot we see it? Also the sun does not disappear into another dimension, the sun is always there. The setting place/resting place can only imply a location to which the sun goes to, but from observation we know that the sun does not move (it does technically, but that is irrelevant) the sun is observable all of the time. The Qu'an seems to imply that the sun goes into an unknown location (thus darkness is created when the sun is non-observable) and then Allah gives it permission to come out of this location.

  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #44 - December 16, 2011, 08:01 PM

    1) I already stated that the early Muslims believed in a geocentric model, so yeah, he and Muhammad were incorrect about where the sun "goes". ........................................


    what Huh?    Dawahfilms is saying Prophet Muhammad PBUH sallallahu alayhe wasallam  is Wong??  That is surprising., I don't think so Dawahfilms.,  If you start doubting Prophet of Islam Then Islam is in trouble.  


    No.. Prophet Muhammad PBUH was never wrong.. You don't understand Dawahfilms ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #45 - December 16, 2011, 08:27 PM

    1.) Are you saying Prophet Mohammed?
    2.) I don't disagree with you on the Throne being above creation, that makes the must sense, I am not inclined to agree with that the throne is under the earth (from a flat perspective) the problem of the throne is, that is the throne psychical, if so why cannot we see it? Also the sun does not disappear into another dimension, the sun is always there. The setting place/resting place can only imply a location to which the sun goes to, but from observation we know that the sun does not move (it does technically, but that is irrelevant) the sun is observable all of the time. The Qu'an seems to imply that the sun goes into an unknown location (thus darkness is created when the sun is non-observable) and then Allah gives it permission to come out of this location.




    1) Yes. He didnt know everything. The Qur'an is the only infallible word and the sunnah according to it. The Prophet (saws) sometimes gave very incorrect statements according to the knowledge of his time. This is accepted by other scholars as well.

    2) It appears the early Muslims simply believed that when the sun rotated below the earth it was not able to be seen given that no one lived down there.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #46 - December 16, 2011, 09:27 PM

    Look, "The Demba", if you can only read hadith and ayah in isolation then you have no business interpreting them. The Throne, as conceived within Muslim theology (something you should know since being an ex-Muslim apparently makes you a scholar) has always been above creation.

    So unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself.


    Embarrassing myself?  Cheesy No, there is nothing more embarrassing than gullible fools like you who blindly keep persisting in believing such bullshit and still choose to run their lives around some irrational rules invented by a strange and disgusting 7th century Arab.

    Now who's the fucking embarrassment? Jesus wept. Roll Eyes

  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #47 - December 16, 2011, 09:31 PM

    1) Yes. He didnt know everything. The Qur'an is the only infallible word and the sunnah according to it. The Prophet (saws) sometimes gave very incorrect statements according to the knowledge of his time. This is accepted by other scholars as well.

    2) It appears the early Muslims simply believed that when the sun rotated below the earth it was not able to be seen given that no one lived down there.


    1 So why do you keep believing that he's a prophet of God, then?

    2 What King Tut said is absolutely spot on, and so far you've brought nothing remotely good enough to refute it.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #48 - December 16, 2011, 09:37 PM

    I wish certain ex-Muslims here would stop with quibbling and ad-hominems. I think this forum would be more interesting if more Muslims stuck around.

    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #49 - December 16, 2011, 09:40 PM

    Dawah, I think I'm starting to understand what you're saying about "above" and "beneath" in this model. Is this what you mean when you describe this model:

    The sun orbits moving on a plane on the east-west axis. The top side of the sphere, "above" which the throne is and the "beneath" side are divided by a plane that passes through what we know as the arctic and antarctic. These two sides are not what we today call the northern or southern hemispheres. Rather, the top and bottom sides are perpendicular to those, more like what we'd call an east or west hemisphere. There's a particular earth location within the tropics which is always closest to the throne in this model. The 4 orbits are due to the different planes (cutting different latitudes) that the sun orbits on as the seasons change - the 2 most what we'd call northerly and 2 most southerly points on the horizon of sunrise and sunset (from the point of view of the some special location, presumably). Do you have any source explaining what that phrase "fourth orbit" means in the hadith or is it your idea?

    It still doesn't seem that your understanding of your ibn Kathir quote supports this model though as a tree in the east or west or centre would get the same amount of sunlight if they have the same latitude (see my 2nd post on this thread, further up this page - not sure if you saw it). If the sun orbited the earth, the east-west plane that the sun seems to move along from a particular location would cut through a line of latitude (different latitudes at different times of year).
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #50 - December 16, 2011, 09:40 PM

    I wish certain ex-Muslims here would stop with quibbling and ad-hominems. I think this forum would be more interesting if more Muslims stuck around.


    They don't stick around because they're not allowed to expose themselves to something that challenges their beliefs, more like.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #51 - December 16, 2011, 09:48 PM

    Quote
    They don't stick around because they're not allowed to expose themselves to something that challenges their beliefs, more like.


    For many that may be true, but personal attacks don't help one bit.
    It'd hate to see this place turn into ex-Muslim version of ummah.com, where members are given green light to senselessly bash dissidents.

    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #52 - December 16, 2011, 10:18 PM

    For many that may be true, but personal attacks don't help one bit.
    It'd hate to see this place turn into ex-Muslim version of ummah.com, where members are given green light to senselessly bash dissidents.

    +1000 
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #53 - December 17, 2011, 01:46 AM

    1) Yes. He didnt know everything. The Qur'an is the only infallible word and the sunnah according to it. The Prophet (saws) sometimes gave very incorrect statements according to the knowledge of his time. This is accepted by other scholars as well.

    you are right That Muhammad was man of his time., But Dawahfilms with glassy looks .. what do you mean by  The Qur'an is the only infallible word and why is it infallible??  What is that which makes it  infallible??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #54 - December 17, 2011, 02:13 PM

    where is our glassy eye   dawahfilms  go  lol.. ??  he logged in but not posted..  you did a great job  here dawahfilms

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #55 - December 17, 2011, 03:03 PM

    I also read somewhere that Spherical Earth Concept was available even during the 6th till the 3rd Century BC.

  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #56 - December 17, 2011, 03:11 PM

    I also read somewhere that Spherical Earth Concept was available even during the 6th till the 3rd Century BC.

    That is very well known Wiki goddess gives you everything on that

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #57 - December 17, 2011, 03:27 PM

    ^ ^

    Lol yeah pretty much Smiley



    What makes me think that Quran is talking about Flat earth is the fact that they mention RISING THE HEAVENS.

    How can u rise Heavens on a spherical planet Huh?

    If God Says RISING THE HEAVENS that means he was rising them from the earth up to the space, which COULD imply he was on earth and rose them cuz if he was not on earth and rose the heavens from outside the earth it makes no sense at all cuz heavens are not risen, plus it compares the heavens to firmament which is a tangible object risen above something flat like the fundamentals of the house.

    There is no logic saying RISING THE HEAVENS regardless if the Quran is referring to our Sky or the universe or everything above the earth because that is not the case because heavens = Universe existed before the earth and the earth was formed 9 Billion years after the universe started expanding, also even if it refers to the sky of the earth it still makes no sense.

  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #58 - December 18, 2011, 01:56 AM

    Hi Dawahfilms, in your video you mention that Ibn Kathir and Ibn Abbas both mention a flat earth when talking about the day of judgement. You then go on to state that because this earth on the day of judgement is unlike the one that exists presently, the present earth cannot be flat. i.e On the day of judgement we will be on an earth that is flat by its overall shape and as this earth is unlike the present one, the present earth is not said to be flat in the qur'an. However this is not what the tafsir is talking about at all, Ibn Kathirs tafsir quotes a hadith saying "On the day of judgement people will be gathered on a white (barren) flat earth just like the wheat bread, it has no recognizable features for anyone." You only quoted the first two parts of the sentence in your video but not the last part of the sentence "it has no recognizable features for anyone" It is clearly saying that the earth will be flat from the perspective of a human, he is saying that the earths features will be removed, all mountains and hills will be leveled out and hence we will just see a white, baren, flattened earth that is not recognizable to us. He is not saying that the literal shape of the earth will be changed from sphere into rectangle, infact the tafsir only says that this earth will be replaced with another.
  • Re: dawah films responding to TheRationalizer's flat earth video
     Reply #59 - December 18, 2011, 02:11 AM

    1) Yes. He didnt know everything. The Qur'an is the only infallible word and the sunnah according to it. The Prophet (saws) sometimes gave very incorrect statements according to the knowledge of his time. This is accepted by other scholars as well.

    2) It appears the early Muslims simply believed that when the sun rotated below the earth it was not able to be seen given that no one lived down there.

    Can you tell me which scholars accept that Muhammed made incorrect statements? Also, do you believe the Qur'an tells us the earth is spherical?
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