Islamic "golden era" science

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Islamic "golden era" science
OP - July 13, 2012, 01:38 PM

Someone posted this response to me on Sexy Atheists page. The guy is probably atheist himself but is looking up to those "muslim scientists"

Can you guys read through it and debunk his claim, "modern science wouldn't be without them?"

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What the hell are you talking about Muddy? Just a trip to the library and looking at medieval Islamic history will show you how it kick started the era of science. So what if you hate Islam now and what it represents now?, there won't be a single scientific or mathematical text that won't acknowledge the powerful basis of those close to 500 years of enquiry yeilded. People like:
Nasir al-Din al-Tusi - "He developed trigonometry to the point it became a separate field, and compiled the most accurate astronomical tables available up to that time"
ibn al-Nafis - "One of these commentaries was discovered in 1924, and yielded a description of pulmonary transit, the circulation of blood from the right to left ventricles of the heart through the lungs.
Omar Khayyam - "was a Persian poet and mathematician who calculated the length of the year to within 5 decimal places. He found geometric solutions to all 13 forms of cubic equations. He developed some quadratic equations still in use."
al-Zahrawi - an Andalusian surgeon who is known as the greatest surgeon of medieval Islam. His most important surviving work is referred to as al-Tasrif (Medical Knowledge). It is a 30 volume set discussing medical symptoms, treatments, and mostly pharmacology, but it is the last volume of the set which has attracted the most attention over time. This last volume is a surgical manual describing surgical instruments, supplies and procedures. Scholars studying this manual are discovering references to procedures previously believed to belong to more modern times.
al-Battani (850–922) was an astronomer who accurately determined the length of the solar year. He contributed to numeric tables, such as the Tables of Toledo, used by astronomers to predict the movements of the sun, moon and planets across the sky. Some of Battani's astronomic tables were later used by Copernicus
Abbas ibn Firnas (810–887) was an Andalusian scientist, musician and inventor. He developed a clear glass used in drinking vessels, and lenses used for magnification and the improvement of vision. He had a room in his house where the sky was simulated, including the motion of planets, stars and weather complete with clouds, thunder and lightning. He is most well known for reportedly surviving an attempt at controlled flight.
And blah blah.
Of course I cut and past a lot. But jez, it's easy to find.
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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #1 - July 13, 2012, 02:14 PM

After a certain point history becomes fiction!
But definitely it would be too much of a stretch to claim " Modern Science wouldn't be without them "
An interesting link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics

In fact it would be somewhat correct to say that modern science wouldn't have been possible without the JEWS !

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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #2 - July 13, 2012, 02:30 PM

Quote from: muddy on July 13, 2012, 01:38 PM
Fuck religion! Praise the seeking of knowledge...whatever society it comes from!

I tend to agree with the guy. Why do you need to debunk it?

What is the ultimate point you are trying to make? That no scientific progress can be made whatsoever in an society where Islam is the dominant religion?

If Arabs cannot be proud of their religion, then let them be proud of their science instead.

Those scientific advances occurred in spite of Islam, not because of it. We don't refer to all European science as "Christian Science", so why refer to all Arab science as "Islamic Science"?

3 of the 5 scientists that the guy referenced lived in Spain, which was an extremely liberal "Islamic" society, Muslims were never the majority population there, and that golden age that he is referencing was brought to an end by the Almoravids who invaded Spain from Africa and accused the Islamic rulers there of being too Christian. Once more stringent Islamic laws were put in place there, most of the scientific learning disappeared.
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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #3 - July 13, 2012, 02:36 PM

True that Tony. As much as there are people who try to deny that there were scientific advances made under a nominally Islamic or Arab domain like Spain, there are quite a few Muslims who claim that the advances were because of Islam, and that they thus prove Islam's greatness or superiority - this is a common dawah theme.

The truth is that human civilisation has advanced through the ebb and tide of knowledge across time and lands, and that cosmopolitan liberal space, a settled society that provides patronage to the pursuit of knowledge, are what produces advancement, not a particular religion.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #4 - July 13, 2012, 02:43 PM

Quote
Just a trip to the library and looking at medieval Islamic history will show you how it kick started the era of science.

This is too overweening IMO. All human advance, whether be it in sciences or other fields, has been colloborative.

Quote
Why do you need to debunk it?

What is the ultimate point you are trying to make? That no scientific progress can be made whatsoever in an society where Islam is the dominant religion?

I don't think that was the point he was trying to make. He was after the possible 'exaggerations' in the claims.

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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #5 - July 13, 2012, 02:47 PM

Quote
The truth is that human civilisation has advanced through the ebb and tide of knowledge across time and lands, and that cosmopolitan liberal space, a settled society that provides patronage to the pursuit of knowledge, are what produces advancement, not a particular religion.

^^^^^^^^^ eloquently put !

The Islamic world then was more liberal than the present ,guaging from what I have read.

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
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Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #6 - July 13, 2012, 03:22 PM

Quote from: billy on July 13, 2012, 02:36 PM
there are quite a few Muslims who claim that the advances were because of Islam, and that they thus prove Islam's greatness or superiority - this is a common dawah theme.

Yes you are right Billy. In fact I think a lot of the haughtiness that Muslims have today is a by-product of the old Western Orientalist praising of Islamic societies that went on in the 19th century. In their eagerness to attack Christianity, historians would often try to show how much more "civilized" Islamic societies were, very often these guys had very little knowledge of the Islamic World. For example Edward Gibbon's highly influential work 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' was a famous critique of Christianity, but he was also notorious for never laying the blame for anything on "his precious Arabs" (his massive book charted the fall of both the Roman and Byzantine Empires). But Gibbon himself confessed his total ignorance of the "oriental languages", so all of his research on the Islamic World came from secondary sources.

Anyway this romanticized view of Islam is still pervasive in Western academia today, the fact that Western academics often have this naive glossy view of Islam and that criticisms of Islam are almost totally absent from an academic world that is all too eager to criticize Christianity simply reinforces the self-importance of Muslims.

But I still think it is important to try to avoid overly-negative views on Islamic civilizations. There is no real need for over-compensation. Most people will not bother reading anything that appears to be a total polemic against Islam. It is always better to try to be balanced and give praise where praise is due but at the same time not shy away from real criticisms either.
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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #7 - July 13, 2012, 03:35 PM

The post 9/11 impulse to pain a rosy picture of Islam fed into this. In a way I can appreciate that impulse. But it feeds into an unhelpful hagiography at times too.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #8 - July 13, 2012, 03:36 PM

Quote
In fact I think a lot of the haughtiness that Muslims have today is a by-product of the old Western Orientalist praising of Islamic societies that went on in the 19th century. In their eagerness to attack Christianity, historians would often try to show how much more "civilized" Islamic societies were, very often these guys had very little knowledge of the Islamic World

The real culprits ! They distorted history elsewhere too !

Quote
But I still think it is important to try to avoid overly-negative views on Islamic civilizations.

Being overly positive is as bad as being overly negative. But alas! people obsess with the extremes.

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Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #9 - July 13, 2012, 03:45 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on July 13, 2012, 03:22 PM

Anyway this romanticized view of Islam is still pervasive in Western academia today, the fact that Western academics often have this naive glossy view of Islam and that criticisms of Islam are almost totally absent from an academic world that is all too eager to criticize Christianity simply reinforces the self-importance of Muslims.

My criticism of this lies in the claims of inherent evidence of Islam's superiority that often are asserted during this process. Its not always the crudest dawah peddling religious Muslim that can accord with this, its often a given attitude amongst mainstream Muslims, sometimes allied to a kind of imperial nostalgia.

Two of the greatest civilisations in history are ancient China and ancient India, both of which contributed immensely to the common heritage of humanity - its impossible to imagine our world without their contributions. India in particular fed knowledge to the Arabs that they subsequently built on. But the notion that this proves that either Hinduism, Buddhism or Confucianism are 'proved' as the cause of this is absurd - and you don't hear that being proposed seriously, at least amongst Indians or Chinese living in the west. But you do hear the idea of Islamic exceptionalism, and imperial exceptionalism, allied to the appreciation of any achievements in nominally Islamic Spain, for example, in discussions amongst Ummah conscious Muslims, even liberal, that feeds into some very imperialistic notions of self, as if this was part of a civilising process that Islam still embarks upon.

Perspective is needed. Amongst Muslims, not just those who would dismiss that scientific achievement was present in particular periods in some Muslim ruled territories. Gaining that perspective could enable Muslims to introspect regarding their history and notions of what is the domain of religion and the debilitating fantasy of imperial power.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #10 - July 13, 2012, 04:42 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on July 13, 2012, 03:22 PM
Yes you are right Billy. In fact I think a lot of the haughtiness that Muslims have today is a by-product of the old Western Orientalist praising of Islamic societies that went on in the 19th century. In their eagerness to attack Christianity, historians would often try to show how much more "civilized" Islamic societies were, very often these guys had very little knowledge of the Islamic World. For example Edward Gibbon's highly influential work 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' was a famous critique of Christianity, but he was also notorious for never laying the blame for anything on "his precious Arabs" (his massive book charted the fall of both the Roman and Byzantine Empires). But Gibbon himself confessed his total ignorance of the "oriental languages", so all of his research on the Islamic World came from secondary sources.

Anyway this romanticized view of Islam is still pervasive in Western academia today, the fact that Western academics often have this naive glossy view of Islam and that criticisms of Islam are almost totally absent from an academic world that is all too eager to criticize Christianity simply reinforces the self-importance of Muslims.

But I still think it is important to try to avoid overly-negative views on Islamic civilizations. There is no real need for over-compensation. Most people will not bother reading anything that appears to be a total polemic against Islam. It is always better to try to be balanced and give praise where praise is due but at the same time not shy away from real criticisms either.

Great post . Unfortunately it's true . Have you read Pascal Bruckner's book ''Tiranny of guilt''?

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Re: Islamic "golden era" science
Reply #11 - July 13, 2012, 05:18 PM

Hi folks. I think it's important to recognize that these Islamic golden era scientists did make significant contributions to science & knowledge in general. Apart from Al Razi (who was more of an atheist) many were devout muslims & I think I could even argue some were even inspired by their faith to learn more.
It has to be said that the 'Islamic' state at that time ,which believe it or not was actually quite secular in it's nature, did give rise to a long period of stability where the pursuit of knowledge & science was able to flourish.

When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
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