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Theme Changer

 Topic: Sufism

 (Read 8503 times)
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  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #30 - November 23, 2011, 11:34 AM

    I find it fascinating how so many Muslims claim they are descended from Mo.




    well to be fair Muhammad had like 30 wives and probably boned some slave girls, so you never really know.
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #31 - November 23, 2011, 11:40 AM

    I am Sufi direct lineage to the Muhammad and Abu Bakar (successor) via Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani...  Wink


    I was a member of a Tariqat, and fond of Sufism when I was a muslim. After a while I became uncomfortable with the surrogate parent persona of the Shaykh's, and the group-think promoted by Tariqats.

    IMO a common by product of the structure of tariqats is a sense of elitism (covered up by false humility) - 'we are humble murids, who happen to be a relatively handful of human beings guided to the sultan of awliya, by the creator of the universe'.

    Every sufi order I came across was convinced that there Shaykh was the Sultan of awliya, I began to openly find it amusing whenever I came across another sufi telling me their shaykh was the sultan of awilya.
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #32 - November 23, 2011, 12:03 PM

    well to be fair Muhammad had like 30 wives and probably boned some slave girls, so you never really know.

    Common.. truth_seeker ., That guy had only one Kid and that is Fatima.. it is true he had 11 to 13 wives and another 13 or so slave girls.    So All these people who claim that they are decedents of Muhammad at best are Bs.   lol., Lucky I escaped becoming a Syed  Cheesy Cheesy

    No., Prophet of Islam may have slept with many women  but he didn't  had  many kids..

     well we must have some thread that gives Detail Of Marriages Of Prophet Muhammad Mr.PBUH  lol
     
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #33 - November 23, 2011, 12:07 PM

    I am Sufi direct lineage to the Muhammad and Abu Bakar (successor) via Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani...  Wink

    Huh!?? what??  .. How??
    Did Muhammad and Abu Bakar  marry each other??
    who had the kid??

    SAM your posts confuse the hell out of me.,

    Hmm ..,   there must be some serious advances in medical field at that time to make one of them as young woman and make her  pregnant..  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5-l0lZcvYM

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #34 - November 23, 2011, 12:13 PM

    what the fuck is 'mysticism' ?

    is another word like 'faith' and 'spirit'. Ie words which sound flashy when they roll of your tongue, but a word with no definition that can be discerned or is palpable but simply has the objective to give you warm fuzzy feeling for an irrational crazy belief with no factual basis.
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #35 - November 23, 2011, 12:17 PM

    I find it fascinating how so many Muslims claim they are descended from Mo.



    This.

    Back when I was a devout Muslim who ate nothing but Chicken burgers (only of those has changed) I asked a Punjabi guy in a takeaway if their chicken was halal, he mumbled 'yes', I told him I don't see a certificate or notice to which he said 'Bhai, I'm a descendent of Rasoolullah.' I'm not sure if it was weirder that he claimed that or that he thought that would somehow make me trust him. Huh?
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #36 - November 23, 2011, 12:22 PM

    what the fuck is 'mysticism' ?

     



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoUtlOntmW0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6MIi6ptAZ8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWzJOl2ZSE8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVvCpXr70Vc

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #37 - November 23, 2011, 07:11 PM

    I find it fascinating how so many Muslims claim they are descended from Mo.



    I am not a descendant of Muhammad Ibn Abdullah... What I mean a "direct lineage" the Secret Teachings of Muhammad... 

    The Secret of Secrets (Sirr al-Asrar)..by Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani

    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #38 - November 23, 2011, 07:14 PM


    Why does Mohammad have secret teachings?

    Apart from the need of the sect / school you follow to increase their cult like aura and ridiculous sense of their own exclusivity and superiority?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #39 - November 23, 2011, 09:04 PM

    Quote
    Why does Mohammad have secret teachings?

    Apart from the need of the sect / school you follow to increase their cult like aura and ridiculous sense of their own exclusivity and superiority?

    Because of Ahlul -Bayt, the relationship between the mureed (disciple) and the Supreme Being. And should not be scattered broadcast. What I mean there a certain secrecy is necessary in that some of the actual Islamic teachings conceptions might easily be misunderstood and misused, were they exposed to the general public.

    According to the Sufism point of view there is only one teacher, and that teacher is God Himself. No man can teach another man. All one can do for another is to give him one's own experience in order to help him to be successful.


    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #40 - November 23, 2011, 09:16 PM

    Quote
    What I mean there a certain secrecy is necessary in that some of the actual Islamic teachings conceptions might easily be misunderstood and misused, were they exposed to the general public.



    Yep. Just as I thought.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #41 - November 25, 2011, 09:01 AM

    What I mean there a certain secrecy is necessary in that some of the actual Islamic teachings conceptions might easily be misunderstood and misused, were they exposed to the general public.


    With hindsight I find it amusing how some Sufis believe the above, and yet still claim that sufi teachings exhort humility.

    How does it feel to be part of an elite group?
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #42 - April 22, 2012, 07:48 PM

     
    A couple of orthodox Islam cases against Sufism

    Sufism is a dilution of Islam with non Muslim influences (Hinduism in the case of Indian sufis)

    +++++


    WHAT IS A SUFI AND WHAT IS SUFISM?
     
    Sufi: a follower of SufismSufism: a sect that has introduced many innovated practices and beliefs into the religion of Islamwhile claiming to be mystical

    Sufism was not known in the time of the Prophet (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace) or hisCompanions, nor was it well known in the first three generations after them. It first appeared in Basrah in Iraq,where some people went to extremes in worship and in avoiding the worldly life, something which isadmonished in the Quran:

    "The Monasticism which they invented for themselves; We did not prescribe it for them."


    Qur'an57:27

    Sufis belong to the Illumist school of philosophy which holds that knowledge and awareness is brought about in the soul by spiritual exercises. Orthodox Islam holds that one can achieve true knowledge and awareness through the acts of worship that exist in the Quran and Sunnah.

    Sufism is often, willfully or otherwise, referred to by Sufis themselves, or by orientalists, as "Islamic mysticism", in order to give the impression that Islam is either wholly or partly an esoteric religion, with a set of dogmatic rituals to be understood by the elite alone-in this class, the Sufis!

    Unfortunately, the lack of any sound critical analysis of the subject in the English language allows these orientalists to flood the English andNorth American book market with literature that stands unchallenged, and dupes naive Muslims into believingthat true salvation can only be attained by pursuing a mystical order. Their vain goal strips Islam of its Universality.

    The Sufis have introduced many innovations into Islam in the name of Tasawwuf and have justified such practises by fabricated statements and unsound arguments Although many sects have appeared throughout the ages, none have outlasted as long and spread their effects into the homes of so many as Sufism has.

    The emotional attachment that a countless number of Muslims have towards this sect is so powerful that any analysis should be purely from an objective perspective; Its conclusions however leave no doubt as to the alien nature of Sufi teachings that have infiltrated into thereligion that our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.s) left us upon. True Muslims should be content with the name "Muslims given to them by Almighty Allah as he says: whichmeans,

    "He has chosen you (to conform to His religion) and has imposed no difficulty upon you in religion,the religion of your father Ibrahim. He named you 'Muslims' both before (in the preceding DivineScriptures) and in this Book."(22.78)

    Ibn Kathir elaborated on this verse, saying: "Allah has chosen the Muslims, honoured them, and distinguished them exclusively of other nations by the most honourable Messenger and the mostperfect religion, and He has not overburdened them with more than they can bear.
     
    Sufis believe that their teachers are also a source for legislation in worship, as they will order them to carry outacts of worship that have no basis in either the Quran or the Sunnah. The extremists from amongst them oftenclaim that Allah dwells within His creation (i.e. in people's hearts, internal organs etc.). Consequently, they ascribe to their Sufi teachers attributes and powers which only belong to Allah, such as the knowledge of theunseen.They often claim that the texts of the Quran and the Sunnah have an outer, apparent meaning, and as well, aninner, hidden meaning. They hold that the outer, apparent meaning is known to those who practice orthodoxIslam, while the inner and hidden meanings of the Quran and Sunnah are known only to their teacher andorder. These teachers will often claim that since they have advanced to the inner and hidden meaning of Islam,they no longer need to pray or fast, something that not even the Prophets were excused from

    Like many other Sufi doctrines, pantheism is adopted from man-made religions and philosophies, as confirmed by S. R. Sharda in his book, Sufi Thought
     
    "Sufi literature of the post-Timur period shows a significant change in thought content. It is pantheistic. After the fall of Muslim orthodoxy from power at the centre of India for about a century,
    due to the invasion of Timur, the Sufi became free from the control of the Muslim orthodoxy andconsorted with Hindu saints, who influenced them to an amazing extent. The Sufi adopted Monismand wifely devotion from the Vaishnava Vedantic school and Bhakti and Yogic practices from theVaishnava Vedantic school. By that time, the popularity of the Vedantic pantheism among the Sufishad reached its zenith."
     
    If Sufis insist that they are Muslims, then what is the sense of identifying themselves with Sufism rather thanwith Islam. The word "Sufism" was not familiar to those who lived in the first and the best three generations of as-Salaf as-Salih (the pious predecessors) who were commanded by Allah the Exalted and His MessengerMuhammad (s.a.w.s) Ibn Taymiyyah makes this clear in his 'Majmu al-Fatawa:

    'Some people accept everything of sufism, whatis right as well as what is wrong; others reject it totally, both what is wrong and what is right, as some scholarsof kalam and fiqh do. The right attitude towards sufism, or any other thing, is to accept what is in agreementwith the Quran and the Sunnah, and reject what does not agree'"

    [Majmu Fatawa Shaykh al-Islam, Vol. 10,p. 82]

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/27518720/What-is-a-Sufi-and-What-is-Sufism


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #43 - April 22, 2012, 07:49 PM


    An anti-Sufism screed up on scribd:

    The Reality of Sufism by Dr Salih al Fawzaan

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/27899042/The-Reality-of-Sufism

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #44 - April 22, 2012, 08:25 PM

    I've never been Muslim, though I do quite like the teachings of Sufis and mystics in general. Of course, there is a lot of crossover between various Mystic traditions to the point that they have more in common with each other than their parent religions. Not that I am an expert -- that is z10's department!

    z10 and I have started picking out some of the sufi stories we find most appealing and some nights before bed read one and discuss how we can better implement it into our lives, and help each other follow these teachings. This is not dogmatic of course -- there are some sufi teachings I don't agree with, and it is more an exercise of making genuine attempts to become the people we want to be. I think there is a lot to be learned from religious stories, it's merely the dogmatism and blind acceptance that I think doesn't allow people to make proper use of the stories. Perhaps the purpose is to expose one to a wide variety of teachings, and to allow one to pick the teachings that work for him or her in a way that is unique to his or her own situation, in a specific point in his or her life, which allows one to better himorherself, or at least reflect on what "betterment" means, personally.

    I think I'm rambling now. But just a few thoughts.
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #45 - April 22, 2012, 08:27 PM

    Reminds me a little of this Sufi quote:
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #46 - April 22, 2012, 08:57 PM

    ^ Zoomi: Is that from "The Book of Assistance"? If not, may I know what it's from? Smiley

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #47 - April 22, 2012, 10:15 PM

    It's from Idries Shaw, "The Way of the Sufi."
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #48 - April 22, 2012, 10:36 PM

    That's Idries Shah. Wink

    Read all of his stuff ages ago. Quite good in spots. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #49 - April 22, 2012, 10:59 PM

    Yes, though this one is more of an anthology of other stories, with a bit of an introduction and commentary.
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #50 - April 22, 2012, 11:13 PM

    Yeah I know. Like I said, read all his stuff. It was a long time ago, but I did generally like his approach.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #51 - April 22, 2012, 11:27 PM

    I was clarifying for chepea. I recommend it chepea, if you're interested. It's a nice anthology, and it's a light but moving read. It's a good book that is easy to pick up for a few moments at a time, while you're waiting for a bus or have a few moments to kill between classes.

  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #52 - April 22, 2012, 11:29 PM

    Here's another passage that I find lovely:
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #53 - April 22, 2012, 11:32 PM

    And, the modern-day equivalent!

    http://www.npr.org/2008/03/28/89164759/a-victim-treats-his-mugger-right

    Quote
    Julio Diaz has a daily routine. Every night, the 31-year-old social worker ends his hour-long subway commute to the Bronx one stop early, just so he can eat at his favorite diner.

    But one night last month, as Diaz stepped off the No. 6 train and onto a nearly empty platform, his evening took an unexpected turn.

    He was walking toward the stairs when a teenage boy approached and pulled out a knife.

    "He wants my money, so I just gave him my wallet and told him, 'Here you go,'" Diaz says.

    As the teen began to walk away, Diaz told him, "Hey, wait a minute. You forgot something. If you're going to be robbing people for the rest of the night, you might as well take my coat to keep you warm."

    The would-be robber looked at his would-be victim, "like what's going on here?" Diaz says. "He asked me, 'Why are you doing this?'"

    Diaz replied: "If you're willing to risk your freedom for a few dollars, then I guess you must really need the money. I mean, all I wanted to do was get dinner and if you really want to join me ... hey, you're more than welcome.

    "You know, I just felt maybe he really needs help," Diaz says.

    Diaz says he and the teen went into the diner and sat in a booth.

    "The manager comes by, the dishwashers come by, the waiters come by to say hi," Diaz says. "The kid was like, 'You know everybody here. Do you own this place?'"

    "No, I just eat here a lot," Diaz says he told the teen. "He says, 'But you're even nice to the dishwasher.'"

    Diaz replied, "Well, haven't you been taught you should be nice to everybody?"

    "Yea, but I didn't think people actually behaved that way," the teen said.

    Diaz asked him what he wanted out of life. "He just had almost a sad face," Diaz says.

    The teen couldn't answer Diaz — or he didn't want to.

    When the bill arrived, Diaz told the teen, "Look, I guess you're going to have to pay for this bill 'cause you have my money and I can't pay for this. So if you give me my wallet back, I'll gladly treat you."

    The teen "didn't even think about it" and returned the wallet, Diaz says. "I gave him $20 ... I figure maybe it'll help him. I don't know."

    Diaz says he asked for something in return — the teen's knife — "and he gave it to me."

    Afterward, when Diaz told his mother what happened, she said, "You're the type of kid that if someone asked you for the time, you gave them your watch."

    "I figure, you know, if you treat people right, you can only hope that they treat you right. It's as simple as it gets in this complicated world."

  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #54 - April 22, 2012, 11:37 PM

    Thanks you guys. I'll definitely read it if I get the time, inshaAllah! Smiley Thank you!

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #55 - April 22, 2012, 11:57 PM

    Actually, I just pulled up The Book of Assistance (by Imam al-Haddad) & though I didn't like the book much  lipsrsealed I figured you might like a few passages, Zoomi, assuming you haven't read it already. (I think that this goes against the spirit of this thread though, lol. Tongue)



    And I can't seem to upload the rest. :( They were really nice, about not slandering people & being kind and concealing others faults...ah well. :(

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #56 - April 23, 2012, 12:34 AM


    Where is Pepe these days.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #57 - October 21, 2012, 09:32 PM

    I really love these Rumi poems-

    "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
    there is a field. I'll meet you there.

    When the soul lies down in that grass,
    the world is too full to talk about.
    Ideas, language, even the phrase "each other" doesn't make any sense"


    "Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu,
    Buddhist, sufi, or zen. Not any religion

    or cultural system. I am not from the East
    or the West, not out of the ocean or up

    from the ground, not natural or ethereal, not
    composed of elements at all. I do not exist,

    am not an entity in this world or the next,
    did not descend from Adam and Eve or any

    origin story. My place is placeless, a trace
    of the traceless. Neither body or soul.

    I belong to the beloved, have seen the two
    worlds as one and that one call to and know,

    first, last, outer, inner, only that
    breath breathing human being"




    "In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

    "The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #58 - October 21, 2012, 09:34 PM

    “silence is the language of god,
    all else is poor translation.”

    “Do not be satisfied with the stories that come before you. Unfold your own myth.”

    “I am smiling at myself today
    There's no wish left in this heart
    Or perhaps there is no heart left
    Free from all desire
    I sit quietly like Earth
    My silent cry echoes like thunder
    Throughout the universe
    I am not worried about it
    I know it will be heard by no one
    Except me.”


    “I want to sing like the birds sing, not worrying about who hears or what they think.”

    ^ I think that last one especially goes for most of us in this forum. We want to be free to voice our opinions and talk openly.

    "In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

    "The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
  • Re: Sufism
     Reply #59 - October 21, 2012, 09:55 PM

    Those poems are so far from an Islamic ethos that you have to stretch Islam into an unrecognisable shape to claim it is part of it, in orthodox terms.

    Nice sentiments though.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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