Sup guys, I wanna ask about al-Razi's comments on the Quran.

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- truth_seeker
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Sup guys, I wanna ask about al-Razi's comments on the Quran.
OP - November 08, 2011, 01:30 PM

So I heard from some sources as well as Hassan's videos that an ancient arab scholar called Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi said something like this about the Quran's challenge of 'produce a sura like it':

Quote
You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!

That was taken from wikipedia though. However, I can't seem to find any real source where this is taken from, and the only source i got is from some book written by some white atheist woman named Jennifer Michael Hecht, and the book was titled Doubt: A History: The Great Doubters and Their Legacy of Innovation from Socrates and Jesus to Thomas Jefferson and Emily Dickinson published in 2003.

Can anyone give more sources to al-Razi's quote? I don't think I can use this in any debate or argument unless it is properly sourced to at least one of al-Razi's own books or written works.
- nj7
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Re: Sup guys, I wanna ask about al-Razi's comments on the Quran.
Reply #1 - November 08, 2011, 05:34 PM

Good question! I wondered this myself some time ago. He seems to have been quite a polymath: Abu Bakr Mohammad Ibn Zakariya al-Razi

We know about this famous quote and of his other skeptical thoughts on Islam via his opponent Abu Hatim al-Razi who wrote a book against heretics called A'lam al-Nubuwwah. I searched the quote on google books and found it in Freethinkers of medieval Islam: Ibn al-Rawāndī, Abū Bakr al-Rāzī and their Impact on Islamic Thought page 103.

It looks like Abu Bakr Mohammad Ibn Zakariya al-Razi originally wrote the words in his now lost book "Mahariq al anbiya" (مخارق الانبياء The Prophets' Fraudulent Tricks), and we know of it via Abu Hatim al-Razi's quote of it in his "A'lam al-Nubuwwah" pages 227-228

I think I'll add a ref to the wikipedia page at some point as others might also wonder where it's from.

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- truth_seeker
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Re: Sup guys, I wanna ask about al-Razi's comments on the Quran.
Reply #2 - November 08, 2011, 05:56 PM

Quote from: nj7 on November 08, 2011, 05:34 PM
Good question! I wondered this myself some time ago. He seems to have been quite a polymath: Abu Bakr Mohammad Ibn Zakariya al-Razi

We know about this famous quote and of his other skeptical thoughts on Islam via his opponent Abu Hatim al-Razi who wrote a book against heretics called A'lam al-Nubuwwah. I searched the quote on google books and found it in Freethinkers of medieval Islam: Ibn al-Rawāndī, Abū Bakr al-Rāzī and their Impact on Islamic Thought page 103.

It looks like Abu Bakr Mohammad Ibn Zakariya al-Razi originally wrote the words in his now lost book "Mahariq al anbiya" (مخارق الانبياء The Prophets' Fraudulent Tricks), and we know of it via Abu Hatim al-Razi's quote of it in his "A'lam al-Nubuwwah" pages 227-228

I think I'll add a ref to the wikipedia page at some point as others might also wonder where it's from.

i know it may be impossible, but can this be sourced directly from some reputable islamic site?

so far I only found this:
http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=109862

but it is simply a preview of the manuscript A'lm al-Nubuwwah. Is there some full translated version I can find somewhere?
- nj7
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Re: Sup guys, I wanna ask about al-Razi's comments on the Quran.
Reply #3 - November 09, 2011, 09:25 PM

It looks like you could be in luck - A book was published in the last few days that seems to be exactly this:

Abu Hatim al-Razi: The Proof of Prophecy, a Parallel Arabic-English Text - Islamic Translation Series

"Synopsis

This book is the record of a debate that took place in the early tenth century between the famous Ismaili missionary Abu Hatim al-Razi and the even more celebrated Abu Bakr al-Razi, a physician and philosopher who was known to medieval Europe as "Rhazes." These two were towering figures of premodern Islamic thought, and their debate over the dogmatic lines between Sunni and Shi'i theological positions serves to illuminate some of the most intellectually exciting topics of medieval Islamic culture. Abu Hatim, in particular, marshals evidence for his position from the Quran, the hadith, and pre-Islamic Arabic poetry as well as from the Jewish and Christian scriptures. This fresh, vivid debate still holds excitement for modern readers who are interested not merely in medieval Islam but in Christian thought as well."

I'm pretty sure it must be the same thing. As far as I can see Abu Hatim al-Razi only published the one book attacking the other al-Razi. The doubt is that it's called Proof of prophecy rather than Signs of Prophecy.

It's £26 though, but soon enough I imagine google books will scan it or it'll be accessable free in the british library or equivalent for whichever your country is.

The author is a Muslim who also translated the Qur'an, so a credible source for Muslims.

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
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