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 Topic: So, how significant is this?

 (Read 2384 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • So, how significant is this?
     OP - July 22, 2015, 06:48 AM

    'Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33436021

    Hi
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #1 - July 22, 2015, 06:53 AM

    I posted that in the Qu'ranic studies thread just now. Sounds as if they are following the traditional approach atm. Waley guy is quite biased I would say!
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #2 - July 22, 2015, 07:03 AM

    Thanks Lily, I'll keepan eyeon boththreads x

    Hi
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #3 - July 22, 2015, 07:04 AM

    NP! Smiley
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #4 - July 22, 2015, 02:42 PM

    Carbon dating of Qur'anic manuscripts is a very hot topic right now.  Alba Fedeli, who is the researcher who had the radiocarbon dating done, is one of the best scholars in the field.  That said, it's bizarre that the article does not quote or cite her, because she is an eminent expert on the subject, and recently gave a major presentation on it.

    The basic problem is that carbon dating of Qur'anic manuscripts does not agree with any of the other data.  And the only *dated* Qur'anic manuscripts (i.e., they include dedication dates) that have been tested failed spectacularly, with radiocarbon dating giving dates two centuries before the dedication date on the manuscript (Deroche did this analysis).  Until radiocarbon dating is able to give results that seem consistent with our dated Qur'anic manuscripts, it seems very unwise to extend it carelessly to undated manuscripts.

    I would reserve judgment until specialists like Fedeli weigh in with their thoughts.  Note that I myself think the first complete Qur'anic manuscripts were probably assembled around the 650s/660s, earlier than many critical scholars, and I think most of the individual surahs were likely written in the 620s/640s, so it is conceivable that Q 18-20 would have been written up in this fashion.  But still these dates look too early for me.

  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #5 - July 22, 2015, 02:49 PM

    Quote from: Ian David Morris
    This old Qur’an manuscript –  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33436021 … – is a great find. But let's not get ahead of ourselves....

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/623770814937235456

    Quote from: Gabriel Said Reynolds
    Amazing thing about this #Quran story is not that the dating is early, but that the dating is TOO early.  http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021

    Results are close to those from tests in Paris on a Hijazi mss. which gave a 6th century date. The #Quran may be older than it should be.

    On the other hand - evidence is growing that the Quran is very early, maybe earlier than traditional dates of Muhammad's life.

    Two fragments of the Sana palimpsest were dated in Paris to 543-643 and 433-599. The Birmingham fragment is not the oldest dated #Quran.

    More on the BBC #Quran story ( http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021 …): the go-to person on this is Alba Fedeli, new Ph.D. on ancient Qurans from Birmingham.

    To recap about interesting #Quran manuscript in Birmingham: dating matches finding of C. Robin in Paris of San'a manuscript. (1/2)

    Both dates are earlier than traditional 'Uthman story of Qur'an's collection and raise possibility that #Quran dates to 6th century. (2/2)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/623655569249976320
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #6 - July 22, 2015, 04:18 PM

    Alba Fedeli

    From 2013... http://www.uco.es/revistas/index.php/cco/article/viewFile/207/204
    Quote
    ....
    Alba Fedeli’s study (“Qur’ān fragments in the Mingana Collection”) examined a number of early Qur’an fragments from the Mingana Collection. She pointed out examples of textual emendation in early Qur’an manuscripts that suggest a re-writing of text to conform to later canonical versions of the text. Fedeli devoted particular attention to a Qur’an palimpsest in a Christian Arabic manuscript, published by Alphonse Mingana and Agnes Smith Lewis in Leaves from three ancient Qur’āns. She suggested that, given the existence of this manuscript, the link between early Islam and Arab Christianity needs further attention in the academy.

    Gabriel Said Reynolds (“Current scholarly debates on the history of the Qur’ān”) presented the current discussions among scholars about the data of Qur’an manuscripts such as the manuscript described by Alba Fedeli. He noted a “reflex” among many scholars to assume the truth of medieval Muslim traditions about the development of the Qur’an, and then to measure the manuscripts against that Muslim tradition. For example, he highlighted the articles of Behnam Sadeghi on such manuscripts as the San‘ā’ palimpsest, in which Sadeghi examines the manuscript while assuming the historicity of the ḥadīth stories of the fixation of the Qur’anic text by the caliph ‘Uthmān.
    ....


    From 2014... https://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/1736307

    From 2015... http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/5864/
    Quote
    Early Qur'ānic manuscripts, their text, and the Alphonse Mingana papers held in the Department of Special Collections of the University of Birmingham

    Fedeli, Alba (2015)
    Ph.D. thesis, University of Birmingham.

    Abstract

    The Special Collections of the Cadbury Research Library at the University of Birmingham hold seven early Qur’ānic pieces on parchment and papyrus dating from the seventh century. Alphonse Mingana purchased them from the antiquarian dealer von Scherling in 1936. Through investigation of the private correspondence of Mingana and archival documents, this research provides new information about the origin and history of the fragments, whose reception has been influenced by the European cultural context at the beginning of the twentieth century, in contrast with the public image proposed in catalogues, official documents and previous studies.

    Furthermore, this research is an attempt to initiate an alternative perspective in analysing and editing the physical objects and texts of early Qur’ānic manuscripts by applying digital philology, thus using XML-encoded expressions to transcribe all of the richness of manuscripts in reconstructing the history of their transmission. This perspective interprets the process of the making of the manuscript text and the context in which the manuscript was written, thus editing its mobile and multi-layered text, differently from previous examples of the edition of early Qur’ānic manuscripts.

    But...
    Quote
    Fedeli15PhD.pdf
    PDF - Accepted Version
    Restricted to Repository staff only until 07 May 2017.

  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #7 - July 22, 2015, 04:28 PM

    Thanks guys. All very interesting.

    Poorreporting bythe bbc in that case. They should havebeen clearer about thereliability ofthe carbon dating. Plusthey should have spelt outbetter that thedating asit standscould actuallyput aspanner inthe worksof thetraditional narrative.

    Poor lazy reporting thathasmy Muslim friendspositively frothingat the mouth.

    Apologiesfor the typing. Phonehas gone mental.

    Hi
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #8 - July 22, 2015, 04:36 PM

    The BBC loves the Muslims and in particular espousing the relevance and significance of Islam in the UK. You're talking about an institution that since the late 90s has suffered an injection of overt leftist ideology. I wouldn't expect anything less than an overly sensitive, unduly bias slant from al-beeb.

    Speaking of those who counseled compassion to the "culprits" he said: "They want them to be treated with oil, soap and caresses. But they should be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can

    Pope Pious X
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #9 - July 22, 2015, 04:42 PM

    The BBC loves the Muslims and in particular espousing the relevance and significance of Islam in the UK......................

     RASCALS......    plenty around..

    Well Prophet I am not worried BBC or other folks loving Islam but I AM REALLY WORRIED WHEN BBC or PEOPLE start loving muslim folks...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #10 - July 22, 2015, 04:45 PM

    Thanks guys. All very interesting.

    Poorreporting bythe bbc in that case. They should havebeen clearer about thereliability ofthe carbon dating. Plusthey should have spelt outbetter that thedating asit standscould actuallyput aspanner inthe worksof thetraditional narrative.

    Poor lazy reporting thathasmy Muslim friendspositively frothingat the mouth.

    Apologiesfor the typing. Phonehas gone mental.


    Helpicantfindmyspacekey.I,will,have,to,use,commas,for,now.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #11 - July 22, 2015, 04:56 PM

    Alba Fedeli - The Qur’anic Manuscripts of the Mingana Collection and their Electronic Edition

    https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/qmmc/
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #12 - July 22, 2015, 06:20 PM

    The manuscript: http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/Mingana/Islamic_Arabic_1572a/table/
    Quote
    Early Qur'an manuscript written in Hijazi script. It contains portions of surahs 18-20. These two leaves were incorrectly bound with 7 further leaves (now Arabic 1572b), which belonged to a separate manuscript. This part has recently been radiocarbon dated to the period between AD 568 and 645 with 95.4% accuracy. An electronic edition of the text has been made by Dr Alba Fedeli on the University of Birmingham epapers website http://epapers.bham.ac.uk/1964/. Updated images are available on the Cadbury Research Library Flickr account https://www.flickr.com/photos/cadburyresearchlibrary/sets/72157655161018888/with/19570847102/.

  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #13 - July 22, 2015, 06:20 PM

    There is an interesting discussion about this issue on one of the Academia sessions.  The consensus seems to be similar to what is said above ... that it's an intriguing result, but seems to be too early to be plausible, and also that Fedeli is the one who is best qualified to opine about its significance (she wrote her doctoral dissertation about this manuscript).  In that regard, Fedeli seems to be rather skeptical about carbon dating, since it has given a rather problematic series of dates in many instances; she just published a paper about this subject.

    Even Islamic tradition would not expect such a manuscript so early, so it does not really seem right.  However stranger things have happened, and again it's not at all impossible to my mind that Q 18-20 could have been composed in written form around 635-640 CE!
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #14 - July 22, 2015, 07:29 PM

    Ian D. Morris's Twitter feed gives a fairly good summary of the issues (as well as quotes from Fedeli herself).

    https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris

  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #15 - July 22, 2015, 07:34 PM

    Helpicantfindmyspacekey.I,will,have,to,use,commas,for,now.


    Lol. I'm seriously havingproblems bro. Either it'smy phone, orit's the mobile versionof this website that is screwed.

    On a more serious note,if onemore ofmy Muslim friends forwards methisarticleagain, with the fucking word'Mashallah'added withpride as acomment, as ifthat suffices tofinally prove thatthey wererightall along...then Iwillbe forced tocome outof retirement, and unfortunately go Medievalon theirfuckingsmug arses.

    Right. Willstop posting tillmyphon learnssome manners.

    ThanksZecazoaterandothers Smiley

    Hi
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #16 - July 22, 2015, 07:45 PM

    Thanks for the links Zaotar!

  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #17 - July 23, 2015, 12:11 AM

    A sceptical blog post: http://www.medievalhistories.com/oldest-quran-manuscript-in-the-world/
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #18 - July 23, 2015, 12:47 PM

    Interesting.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • So, how significant is this?
     Reply #19 - May 26, 2017, 07:30 PM



    Just pointing out it should be available now, in case anyone's forgotten.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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