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 Topic: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious

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  • why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     OP - September 15, 2011, 02:07 PM

    i was never been muslim with my consent and rational researched approval, so ive never regarded myself as a 'former muslim' or 'ex muslim'

    Why do i not regard myself as ex-muslim ? well to be an ex of anything you would have had to been associated by some level of non-indoctrinated choice or liked it/them according to your uncoerced opinion. ie ex-boyfreind/ex-girlfriend, there an 'ex' becos you liked them by your own free will to some extent, you were never forced to date them.

    do we call people who used to be slaves, but are now free, 'ex-slaves' or 'former slaves'

    do we call rape victims 'ex-sexual-intercoursers' or 'former sexual intercoursers'?

  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #1 - September 16, 2011, 04:16 PM

    Quote
    i was never been muslim with my consent and rational researched approval


    Unfortunately consent and/or rational researched approval are not requirements neither by Islam itself nor society (majority) for being categorised Muslim. Some statuses themselves require the choice (e.g boyfriend, girlfriend) but consider a former prisoner, s/he may dispute his/her conviction, but that does not change the fact they were convicted. Same goes for a slave, the individuals choice was not an element in them being given such a status.

    Your last example does not work, ex and former make destinctions between the being of a status. Sexual intercourse is not really a status that we give to each other.

    I see where you are coming from though and agree to an extent. Kinda like the whole silliness with a convert being a "revert"  mysmilie_977

    n = 0 : n + [1,1,1...]
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #2 - September 16, 2011, 05:08 PM

    Well said, VHD. Afro

    @serpentofeden:
    If you used to be a Muslim and you no longer are, then by definition you are an ex-Muslim / former Muslim.  If you want to argue about whether you were a Muslim in the first place, then you could similarly argue about whether the 1 billion Muslims on this planet should be regarded as Muslims.  What makes one a Muslim by your definition?  It's back to the No-True-Scotsman fallacy.

    Having said that, I think I understand why you don't like the ex-Muslim label (if you can call it a label!).  This has been discussed on this forum a number of times.  I don't have a problem with this label since it is not a label I use outside this forum.  It's just a word to bring people of shared experiences, backgrounds and (perhaps) worldviews together.
    parrot
    It also helps in combating the taboo of apostasy, since Muslims like to think that there is no such thing as an ex-Muslim.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #3 - September 17, 2011, 09:51 AM


    do we call people who used to be slaves, but are now free, 'ex-slaves' or 'former slaves'

    do we call rape victims 'ex-sexual-intercoursers' or 'former sexual intercoursers'?

    Let is not put apples and oranges together and sell it as just fruit  serpentofeden.,

    There is huge difference between Rape Victims, Victims of slavery and those people who renounced religious nonsense because of their intellectual honesty and inquiry  in to this so-called unknown entity god. The difference between rape victims/ex-slaves  and ex-muslims is far more than you see in the difference between Apples and oranges dear  serpentofeden

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #4 - September 17, 2011, 04:04 PM

    'ex-sexual-intercoursers'



    Yeah an I am super ugly, I can't even beat my chest am too skinny and when I roaaar to attract women, they laugh at me, because it sounds like a girl screaming. I can't even attract any bitches!  Cry

  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #5 - September 17, 2011, 05:06 PM


    Kinda like the whole silliness with a convert being a "revert" mysmilie_977


    rofl idiot2 that's the height of silliness or arrogant stupidity.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #6 - September 17, 2011, 09:51 PM

    But you went through the rituals and fasting, etc. so I would consider it Ex-Muslim.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #7 - September 17, 2011, 11:12 PM

    Non believer is good enough i say...

    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #8 - September 17, 2011, 11:15 PM

    do we call people who used to be slaves, but are now free, 'ex-slaves' or 'former slaves'



    yes.. in fact as a muslim i was used to listening to bilal being described in that way.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #9 - September 19, 2011, 01:30 PM

    i was never been muslim with my consent and rational researched approval, so ive never regarded myself as a 'former muslim' or 'ex muslim'

    Why do i not regard myself as ex-muslim ? well to be an ex of anything you would have had to been associated by some level of non-indoctrinated choice or liked it/them according to your uncoerced opinion. ie ex-boyfreind/ex-girlfriend, there an 'ex' becos you liked them by your own free will to some extent, you were never forced to date them.

    do we call people who used to be slaves, but are now free, 'ex-slaves' or 'former slaves'

    do we call rape victims '
     ex-sexual-intercoursers' or 'former sexual intercoursers'?



    Of course if you don't feel comfortable with ex-muslim because you feel like you were never a Muslim to start with you shouldn't have to defend yourself. You made an exceltent point you were never a muslim by choice.
    However others are free to feel differently. Both ex-cons and former slaves (who are rightly referred to that  way in documents)  even being in that state by no choice of their own. So some one prefers ex-muslim that's there choice.
    Then there are other who were very much Muslim by choice and are now not Muslim by choice. Still what thay want to be called is their choice.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #10 - September 19, 2011, 02:52 PM

    ive never heard heard of a slave be referred to as an 'ex' of 'former slave', but as a 'free person/individual' & when discussing their past slavery, it always been emphasised how they were forcefully enslaved, rather then 'oh what made you leave slavery'....unlike how people ask 'what made you leave religion'........the thing is nobody leaves religion the same way nobody leaves slavery,  people escape/free themselves from both slavery/religion either themselves of with assistance....it's an emancipation from subjugation not a 'leaving'

    religious people are themselves prisoned in their ideology without knowing hence why they think free people are 'leavers' rather then individuals who have 'liberated' themselves from the shackles and chains of religion. this quote springs to mind

    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free"
    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #11 - September 19, 2011, 06:47 PM

    I agree with both sides of this discussion- I never chose to be muslim so how can I be considered ex muslim- however, having been born muslim it took a great deal of strength (mental and physical), research, study, discussions and many many years before I released myself from the shackles of a religion that I had unwillingly placed on me- so in this regard I am ex muslim right? I mean, a person born of no religion wouldn't go through these lengths to confirm their doubts.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #12 - September 19, 2011, 07:29 PM

    I personally like the term ex-Muslim. Looking back - when I was in the process of apostating, seeing people who openly called themselves ex-muslims/apostates/former-muslims gave me psychological strength to continue my enquiry.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #13 - September 20, 2011, 06:46 AM

    Serpentofeden,
    Perhaps the difference in how we have seen former slaves refered to may be due to where we are from in the world. The end of that for me is how the individual themself feels comfortable with expressing themself about the issue. You obviously have had a very emotionly powerful journey away from a religion you did not choose. So far I know very little of your story. I would not try to take away from you your right to explain it in the words you would like to use. Only I would encourage you to in your freedom not take away some elses freedom to use the words they want to use. Because they have had their own powerful journey. I don't think the arguement should be words nor should what you or I choose be expressed by broadly condemning those who have made a different choice.

    How long ago were you able to leave Islam?
    Is your family accepting of your choice?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #14 - September 20, 2011, 07:25 AM

    Hi Saffire,
    How have you been?
    I think it must be very difficult for people who have families that oppose them religiously. I have never really had much prblem that way myself. I come from a very religiously mixed family. Perhaps you've heard me say that before. so the choice was always mine. I am religious. I have Jewish relatives. I relatives that are different types of Christians. Some that are Atheist and Agnostics. We all of course think our own choice is better and a good conversation on the topic every now and then i good for the brain. So I know that people go through  being rejected by their family. I have friends who were rejected by their family for beconing JW. Jesus said it would happen in the often misquoted scripture, ''I come not to bring peace to the world but a sword'' (paraphrase). Anyhow I feel for people that have to feel fear about their choice. It would be a very difficult journey.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #15 - September 20, 2011, 05:03 PM

    Lynna i don't consider myself a 'leaver of islam' just like nobody who is no longer a slave considers themselves a 'leaver of slavery', but more as someone who has liberated himself and set himself free from it, an 'emancipation from islam' from it's imaginary celestial invisible david blaine in the sky.

    I don't really discuss religion with my family.. it's a taboo subject...

    i don't mind people describing themselves as 'ex' or 'former' muslim, we live in democracy, people can label themselves how they like ! I'm just of the opinion that's it better to use terminolgy which better describes how little choice you had in it and how you were forcefully coerced & indoctrinated. This will also bring further attention to the pyschological abuse children suffer because of religious indoctrination.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #16 - September 20, 2011, 11:31 PM

    I am definitely an ex-muslim, I used to believe with all my heart and soul.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #17 - September 20, 2011, 11:34 PM

    Hi Lynna- You're lucky that you had a real choice. My mum just won't (can't?) accept that I don't believe and never will. She refuses to talk to me until I 'go back'- go back to her home, go back to islam, etc. Despite my telling her many times you can't just believe in something, you either do or don't! She just won't accept it and it sucks.

    Serpent- I get you totally! You mean that the general term ex-muslim implies so much, bunching all of 'us' into the same category- there are many people on this site (and elsewhere I suppose) who were 'actual' muslims, praying, believing etc, then there are people like you and me who never believed, who tried to see some truth in it for the sake of making life easier, for the sake of other people (family) but in the end saw/admitted the battle (for Islam) was lost and it's all man made. Referring to us with the same title as those who really believed is misleading and you're right, perhaps a new title for people who were raised muslim but never believed WOULD highlight the abuse of forcing religion onto children- but what title? To just say nothing is misleading too as, despite the never believing, we (at least I) were so affected by Islam, have in fact escaped from it and that's taken a psychological toll- so what name?

    How about 'the emancipated'? This term could be applied to any person who has escaped from religious/cult upbringing- so if someone asks what's your religion, you might say 'emancipated atheist', then they will perhaps ask from what religion you emancipated, and you can say islam. The term can be applied to those who never believed  grin12
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #18 - November 23, 2011, 03:16 PM

    yes it wasn't a choice, it was simply down to me being born to muslim parents who told me their false version of the 'truth' just as they parents had told them and the parents of their parents and so on. I decided to break the mould of stupidity and sheer absurdity, and end the cycle of delusion that there's an invisible bronze aged semetic deity who we can't see now, but in the middle ages used to ambush random desert nomads(thru himself or his angels) when nobody else was around, but has now conveniently got bored of letting people know of his actuality when humans have invented tools & technology to record evidence of his existence.

    For me it wasn't cos of my family, that I decided to reject it. Muslim was just my identity(just like race or ethnicity is) purely down to the parent-child dissemination and i never followed it as an ideology. I would have never given two hoots about it as an ideology if it was for the arrogance and smugness of islamic missionaries, which made me want to go and research it as an "ideology". I didn't have the predisposition of wanting it to be true or false but the hyperboles of the rabble rousing demagoues made me curious over the fuss they were making about it. Once i looked into it the barbarity, sexism & misogyny was very transparent to me and as i never had the strong emotional attachment to it i couldn't look past all the malevolence and just sweep it under the carpet, my conscience wouln't allow me to do that. As the saying goes "you gotta know to be a hypocrite" and if i still supported it once I knew about it would cause me great mental anguish.

    Yes the "emancipated" or "liberated" would be more appropiate....or the "freed" "saved" ... these words imply that you see yourself as escaping something which is pernicious where as 'exmuslim' simply suggests you just disbelieve in as a theology now nothing more nothing less, without nothing to suggest to imply how you see it as being wicked & totalitarian, which I do and many other do.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #19 - August 14, 2012, 02:29 PM

    So am I the only one who thinks the term 'ex-muslim' is inappropiate
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #20 - August 14, 2012, 02:51 PM

    So am I the only one who thinks the term 'ex-muslim' is inappropiate

    well I am not sure about that, some smart guys may support you.,  but....but ... you seem to be jealous of those who came out of Islam and group themselves as Ex-Muslims dear serpentofeden ... lol..  I ask you why?? why so much jealousy?? ..

    Well not a big deal.. You go to some mosque in UK or go to Pakistan and announce to a Baboon that you want to become Muslim., Sure they will advertise you on live TV and make you read Shahada .. that is it.. you will be a Muslim., stay there  for three months and come back on youtube and announce "You left Islam"

    Now You will become Ex-Muslim and you will get all perks attached to that degree..   ..lol...

    So serpentofeden.,  don't be jealous of that Ex_Muslim title please..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #21 - August 14, 2012, 02:53 PM

    Inappropriate for you, perhaps. Nobody is forcing you to self-identify a certain way, though.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #22 - August 14, 2012, 03:59 PM

    Serpentofeden did you reread the thread when you reopened it after nearly a year?

    This does seem to be an issue that bothers you.

    Perhaps the issue is if you and other who did not chose Islam in the first place by their own intellectual choice should be considered to have been Muslims at all. I would be willing to agree that you were never Muslim to start with from my point of view. As well I would say you are completely free to describe yourself and your journey in the terms you feel comfortable with. However as you can read other are comfortable with the term exMuslim. They have have as much right to feel comfortable with that term as you have to not feel comfortable with that term.

    What do you hope to obtain in this discussion? 
    How would you like the issue resolved?

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #23 - August 14, 2012, 04:27 PM

    Serpentofeden ...........

    This does seem to be an issue that bothers you.......

    ..............

    Yap Arrest Serpentofeden   Colonel Lynna...  

    I am  finmad with those eyes hiding behind big glasses .. finmad

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #24 - August 14, 2012, 04:32 PM

    So am I the only one who thinks the term 'ex-muslim' is inappropiate


    Gradually it becomes more of an afterthought, but no I wouldn't say it's inaccurate per se. Just like it's not inaccurate to call myself an ex-child.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #25 - August 14, 2012, 04:42 PM

    .............. Just like it's not inaccurate to call myself an ex-child........

    child??  ex-child., nope, it should be Ex-rapist..

    Oops...   that title should go to Colonel ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #26 - August 14, 2012, 05:10 PM

    Well the problem is that there are many groups for atheists, humanists and skeptics but they only cater to the needs of "western atheists".  We needed a special group to cater to the needs of ex muslim atheists. Especially the teenagers and atheists in trouble in Islamic countries 

    Another reason is that we need a positive group against political Islam to counter the other hate/messed up groups like Faith Freedom International, Jihad Watch, WikiIslam, TheReligionofPeace

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #27 - August 16, 2012, 05:43 PM

    @jeeezeever
    aint jealous. Just feel a term that more appropiately describes how little choice you had in being labelled a 'muslim' is better. The ex-boyfriend/girlfriend analogy breaks it down perfectly for me. Do the label boyfriend/girlfriend get acquired through how someone classifies you where you have no say in the matter until you reach the point where you can think for yourself ?  I have never voluntarily described myself as a 'muslim' but i have voluntarily had a girlfriend, so to call myself an 'ex-muslim' would be a false equivalence of how I call a former girlfriend 'ex-girlfriend'


    @Lynna
    People can call themselves whatever they want, but IMHO 'emancipated' or 'liberated' muslim would be a better label.  It betters describes ones perspective in their disengagement from religion and a freed person, should classify themselves as freed. I think with the label, It would make some of those within the religion perhaps realise they are mentally colonised within the enslavement of religion, rather then 'ex-muslim' which gets the response of of "ohh you're an ex-muslim..........oh it must be cos your parents forced you to go mosque as  kid " or "you're an ex-muslim, cos you wanna get up to endless sleeping around and drinking".

    I think discussions are always useful to suggest better ways forward
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #28 - August 16, 2012, 05:53 PM

    Quote
    @jeeezeever

    aint jealous. Just feel a term that more appropiately describes how little choice you had in being labelled a 'muslim' is better.



    Hmm., Good point serpent .. yes we should kill that son of the bitch

    Quote
    The ex-boyfriend/girlfriend analogy breaks it down perfectly for me. Do the label boyfriend/girlfriend get acquired through how someone classifies you where you have no say in the matter until you reach the point where you can think for yourself ? 

    huh! what??

     
    Quote
    I have never voluntarily described myself as a 'muslim' but i have voluntarily had a girlfriend, so to call myself an 'ex-muslim' would be a false equivalence of how I call a former girlfriend 'ex-girlfriend'

    Oh OK., if you don't  like the word  "Ex-girl  friend"  but like  "former girl friend".,    .... then Yap we should call Ex-Muslim as Former Muslim.,  ..Would that be OK with you Serpent?

    But you see .. Former Muslim is too big a word unlike Ex_Muslim.,  so I think Ex_Muslim is a better word because it is small .. it save space and it save oxygen in the lungs.

    Correct me if I am wrong serpent..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: why i think the terms 'ex-muslim' or 'former muslim' are fallacious
     Reply #29 - August 16, 2012, 08:11 PM

    People can call themselves whatever they want, but IMHO 'emancipated' or 'liberated' muslim would be a better label. 

    I'll stick with Ex-Muslim. Less letters to type. Less pretentious to say.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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