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Theme Changer

 Topic: muhammad's role as a general

 (Read 1564 times)
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  • muhammad's role as a general
     OP - August 17, 2011, 07:25 PM

    is it true that all of Muhammad's battles and raids are simply him 'defending' himself instead of him being agressive?

    I've been reading on a few of the battles that he took part in (as well as some other that he ordered) and I find many instances where Muhammad clearly being agressive. Like Badr for example, where he deliberately tried to raid the meccan caravans while the meccans were simply DEFENDING their caravans. Also there were many isntances where muhammad send commanders to defile or destroy idols or other tribes and bully them to convert to Islam.

    Plus I find it hard to believe that a Muhammad managed to spread his influence throughout the whole of Saudi Arabia simply by 'being defensive'. How can a Muslim city of Medina somehow took over Saudi Arabia simply by 'being defensive'?
  • Re: muhammad's role as a general
     Reply #1 - August 17, 2011, 07:34 PM

    it was just Arabia

    there was no such thing as Saudi that time

    and yes, mo was basically the toughest leader in Arabia, that's why all the tribes submitted to him and became Muslim cuz they knew he would come and kill their men and enslave their women and children otherwise
  • Re: muhammad's role as a general
     Reply #2 - August 17, 2011, 07:43 PM

    Here is what I can find on Badr > Hadiths:

    Quote
    "The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari  46:717)



    Quote
    Book 008, Number 3371:
     Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.


    Here are other hadiths/ verses on war:

    Quote
    Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?”  Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)


    Quote
    But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them (9:5)



    and here are some quotes from Ibn Ishaq on other matters of war:

    Quote
    If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)


    Quote
    We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets.  When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, “Muhammad with his force,” and turned tail and fled… The apostle seized the property piece by piece… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)


    Quote
    When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning.  If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked.  We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)



    There are certainly alot of cases where Muhammad was acting as the aggressor and unnecessarily hostile to people not immediately involved in the wars (banu Qurayza for example).
  • Re: muhammad's role as a general
     Reply #3 - August 17, 2011, 07:50 PM

    thanks mighty_cats and ifrit.

    if all of Muhammad's total military campaign is 100%, how many percentages would you give for 'muhammad being defensive', 'muhammad being agressive', and 'muhammad simply being a dick'?
  • Re: muhammad's role as a general
     Reply #4 - August 17, 2011, 07:52 PM

    Muslims like to believe Muhammad's battles were defensive or provoked, but that's not really the case. But neither is it true that they were all offensive or unprovoked. The Meccans certainly saw him and his religion as a threat and did their best to snuff it out - especially once Muhammad set up in Medina. Muslims will say that they were provoked re-Badr by Medinans taking their property in a caravan to sell and that is why they attacked. The truth is probably a that they used it as an excuse to attack the Meccans. Uhud was a revenge attack by the Meccans. There were attacks on passing caravans by Muhammad's followers and Muhammad led offensive attacks on Ta'if, Khyber and others that escape me now. The Battle of the Trench was an attack by the Meccans. So as you can see it was a bit of both.

    The Jihadis are happy to accept Muhammad sanctioned and led offensive Jihad.

    Many other Muslims will only see what they want to see through their rose-coloured spectacles and will believe that they were defensive or provoked and it's hard to get them to see things objectively. Their starting point is complete faith that Muhammad was a totally good and faultless man - so they are unable to allow any information in that would contradict that.
  • Re: muhammad's role as a general
     Reply #5 - August 17, 2011, 07:59 PM

    thanks mighty_cats and ifrit.

    if all of Muhammad's total military campaign is 100%, how many percentages would you give for 'muhammad being defensive', 'muhammad being agressive', and 'muhammad simply being a dick'?



    Its hard to say because much of the information is one-sided infavor of Muhammad (history is written by those in power etc etc), but I do find it odd how even when the information is being compiled by people in favor of Muhammad and Islam --There are still plenty of examples of him being a 'dick' in most cases.
    Its also hard to answer because even when he's in a defensive war, he still seems to be the aggressor at the same time:
    Quote
    We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets.  When they saw the apostle and the army they cried,  Muhammad with his force and turned tail and fled. The apostle seized the property piece by piece. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)


    Therefore all I can say for certain is that Muhammad is being a dick in 100% of the wars.
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