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 Topic: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?

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  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #270 - August 31, 2011, 09:11 PM

    and you didn't expect that?


    I was expecting answers to my questions.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #271 - August 31, 2011, 09:12 PM

    Quote
    no, but the idea is to cast away those who prefer to be proud and stubborn when they can.


    You said you can understand my point about other religions, so why do you still maintain that it's due to pride and stubbornness that people don't believe the Qur'an?
    We don't get to "pick" our honest convictions, since they form automatically as we absorb and process data. You can't help but be unconvinced in the existence of leprechauns, or non-existence of your computer.

    So correct me if I'm wrong: you think that all-wise creator of our world does not provide conclusive evidence because he wants those who are not persuaded by whatever evidence he did provide to burn in hell that he prepared for them. He also conceived and created these people, with full knowledge of their destiny.

    Quote
    Experience of choice is far more fundamental to me than any rationalisation about it.


    No doubt about it.
    If we were prevented from exercising our will, we'd probably go insane.

    However, concluding that our very will and actions were predetermined by Him who will torture many of us for exercising that same will has strong negative implications for our view of Him. For many of us, anyway.

    Quote
    Creation, to me, is ample evidence for the existence of the Creator God.


    Alright.
    And what is your evidence that Qur'an describes the real Creator? Does the god of the Qur'an seem like the sophisticated being which could design the intricate properties and processes of nature? Does it not seem awfully base for the Creator to dedicate most of his book to graphic fear-mongering and bribery of the reader with worldly delights? Does the lack of detailed, applicable insight into the workings of the universe not strike you as suspicious? To me he seems like an all-too human literary character who reflects much of the knowledge, desires, fears, and prejudices of 7th century Arabs.

    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #272 - August 31, 2011, 09:20 PM

    @ stuff

    Quote
    You said you can understand my point about other religions, so why do you still maintain that it's due to pride and stubbornness that people don't believe the Qur'an?

     
    I said only IF it is due to pride and stubborness people reject Quran, they would be punished in the hereafter. I also said i can understand it if people honestly didn't believe the Quran was true.

    Quote
    We don't get to "pick" our honest convictions, since they form automatically as we absorb and process data. You can't help but be unconvinced in the existence of leprechauns, or non-existence of your computer.

     
    understood.

    Quote
    So correct me if I'm wrong: you think that all-wise creator of our world does not provide conclusive evidence because he wants those who are not persuaded by whatever evidence he did provide to burn in hell that he prepared for them. He also conceived and created these people, with full knowledge of their destiny.

    i have nothing else to say but to repeat what i already said: the idea is to cast away those who prefer to be proud and stubborn when they can. (as to those who reject Quran out of sincerety, i *guess* they'd become the Men of the Heights, and they'd be subjected to a tougher test since they already witnessed the afterlife).

    ...to be continued below.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #273 - August 31, 2011, 09:39 PM

    Quote
    No doubt about it.
    If we were prevented from exercising our will, we'd probably go insane.

    However, concluding that our very will and actions were predetermined by Him who will torture many of us for exercising that same will has strong negative implications for our view of Him. For many of us, anyway.

    again nothing more to add except repeating what my beloved said: Experience of choice is far more fundamental to me than any rationalisation about it. (I honestly find this to be one of the most brilliant philosophical statements I ever read anywhere). You're too hung up on rationalizing free-will... when experiencing it is all what really counts.

    Ok, here's a straight question for you: suppose Eternalism (which implies an immutable future) is true, would you, personally, hold people accountable for their actions? or would you get busy giving excuses based on the consequences of the immutability of the future? What if someone slit the throat of a little girl, cut her to tiny pieces and fed her to a rabid dog? Would you hold him accountable for his crime or not (given the the future is fixed).?  

    Quote
    Alright.
    And what is your evidence that Qur'an describes the real Creator?


    A religion (any religion) is a set of claims and arguments. I judge a religion by its arguemnts, as there's no way to verify its claims.

    I answered this in a bit more details here:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=17132.msg490583#msg490583

    Quote
    Does the god of the Qur'an seem like the sophisticated being which could design the intricate properties and processes of nature?

     
    yes, He does (at least to me).

    Quote
    Does it not seem awfully base for the Creator to dedicate most of his book to graphic fear-mongering and bribery of the reader with worldly delights?

     
    yes, it does, except you're wrong when you say that most of this book is dedicated to threats of punishment and promises of bliss.

    Quote
    Does the lack of detailed, applicable insight into the workings of the universe not strike you as suspicious?

    Not at all. I answered this in detail many times before... i might look for links and post them later.
    EDIT: here's one:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8240.msg206782#msg206782
    and i found this one too:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14003.msg401943#msg401943

    Quote
    To me he seems like an all-too human literary character who reflects much of the knowledge, desires, fears, and prejudices of 7th century Arabs

    He does communicates in human language so He's bound to sound human... besides, we wouldn't understand a thing if He sounded anything but human. As to the "scientific errors" argument, I disagree with it (and I grew way too tired of addressing it and re-addressing it over and over again.)

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #274 - August 31, 2011, 10:06 PM

    @debunker:
    Hi there, parrot
    A slightly personal question for you (if you don't mind):  do you perform the 5 daily prayers in their times (with wudhu, ofc!)?  Do you fast, eat only halal, avoid alcohol?  And do you think God will punish Muslims who neglect the rules of Islam?

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #275 - August 31, 2011, 10:14 PM

    @ teapot

    Quote
    do you perform the 5 daily prayers in their times (with wudhu, ofc!)?

    not in their times, no, but i do pray all 5 prayers.

    Quote
    Do you fast,

    yes, always, never slipped a day in Ramadan.

    Quote
    eat only halal,

     
    i only avoided pork, but I had meat at (normal) restaurants in the US without caring about how the animal was slaughtered... i used to get all my grocerices from regular grocery stores, and i stayed 10 miles away from halal grocery stores (bad quality, expensive, depressing surroundings)., so th eanswer to your question is: i don't know?

    Quote
    avoid alcohol?  

     
    always, except i once tried a bear can (horrible taste!)

    Quote
    And do you think God will punish Muslims who neglect the rules of Islam?

    I don't know, but we are warned against ignoring His rules.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #276 - August 31, 2011, 10:24 PM

    @debunker:
    Thanks for the answer.

    not in their times, no, but i do pray all 5 prayers.

    i only avoided pork, but I had meat at (normal) restaurants in the US without caring about how the animal was slaughtered..

    Is that because you don't think these are sins, or because you were just a bit lazy/neglectful?  If it's the former, how did you decide from Quran and Hadith that the rulings were not meant to be so strict?

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #277 - August 31, 2011, 10:31 PM

    i know that not praying on time is a sin.

    as for halal food, aside from avoiding pork/alcohol, it was almost never emphasized as I grew up (traveling abroad with parents) or when I met with (Sunni) Saudis abroad when i went for grad school. All other Muslims (including Shia Saudis) seem to be obsessed about halal food. so the answer again is i don't know... simply nobody seemed to care in my circle of friends/acquaintences (so i didn't feel like i was doing something wrong).    

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #278 - August 31, 2011, 10:52 PM

    @Debunker, if you don't want to bother answering yet another question being fired at you in this thread then ignore this post, if you don't mind then read ahead.  Smiley

    -------

    I've read some of your posts on the forum and from what I understand you're a muslim who does not follow the orthadox sunni view of Islam. I myself am agnostic in regards to the existance of a creator. From what I gathered you don't think that people who genuinely don't believe islam is the truth will be punished, but subject to further tests from god. I have one question though; what is the purpose of an eternal punishment?

    The reason I ask this question is because Allah's punishment for the disbelievers and worldly punishments seem to have one fundamental difference, that is purpose. When we punish a criminal by putting them in jail we do so with the purpose of teaching the criminal a lesson, so that they wont commit the crime again and thus to benefit society. When we punish a child who talks to much in class by telling him/her off, we do so because it will benefit the child to listen in class and become educated. But when Allah punishes someone eternally, it kind of contradicts the whole point of punishment dont you think? The threat of punishment may deter someone from commiting a crime, but once the eternal punishment commences no one gains anything. There is just constant pain of these individuals who chose to reject god in their pride, Allah does not gain anything, and neither does any other creation, maybe the attitudes of those roasting in hell would change but it was all pointless since the eternal roasting had begun. What do you think is the purpose of hell then? A limited hell would have made more sense in my opinion as a person would learn their lesson! Albeit in a very cruel way.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #279 - August 31, 2011, 11:30 PM

    Quote
    again nothing more to add excepting repeating what my beloved said: Experience of choice is far more fundamental to me than any rationalisation about it. (I honestly find this to be one of the most brilliant philosophical statements I ever read anywhere). You're too hung up on rationalizing free-will... when experiencing it is all what really counts.


    Critical thinking is a part of life's experiences. If you want truth, you have to think critically about reality and your place in it.

    Quote
    Ok, here's a straight question for you: suppose Eternalism (which implies an immutable future) is true, would you, personally, hold people accountable for their actions? or would you get busy giving excuses based on the consequences of the immutability of the future? What if someone slit the throat of a little girl, cut her to tiny pieces and fed her to a rabid dog? Would you hold him accountable for his crime or not (given the the future is fixed).?  


    Sure, I'd hold him accountable. I wasn't the one who designed the universe, so I am not directly responsible for what he did. All I can do is respond, and try to make my society better by removing him from it. You know what I wouldn't do, though? I wouldn't torture the sick bastard forever after, because I know he is only a bad apple on the tree of the universe. Neither heroes nor villains have libertarian freedom.


    Quote
    A religion (any religion) is a set of claims and arguments. I judge a religion by its arguemnts, as there's no way to verify its claims.


    Ok, let's look at what you wrote:

    Premise: creation is evidence/proof the Creator God exists.
    Argument: since there is no evidence for other deities, then there's no deity but (the Creator) God. That's the basic argument for Islam's central message, monotheism (which is, by the way, very similar to Atheism's argument which is based on a different premise: there's no evidence for any deity at all).


    Kind of messy...
    I question your premise, as it's not established that the universe is a creation (insofar as "creation" means a product of a creator).
    But even if I grant it, at most 'creation' is evidence for a Deistic God, and not the angry being described in the Qur'an. And why couldn't there be many Deistic Gods who designed our universe? Can you give me a reason?

    You then proceed to...I'm not entirely sure. I guess you use the fact that Qur'an describes a single God as a basis to link Qur'an to the creator of the universe, but that doesn't work lipsrsealed

    Quote
    He comunicates in human language so He's bound to sound human... besides, we wouldn't understand a thing if He sounded anything but human. As to "scientific errors" argument, I disagree with it.


    Two people, talking in the same language, can give radically different impressions.
    One can broadcast his ignorance and baseness, while the other can broadcast profound insight and admirable character.

    As for your defense for misrepresenting reality to ancient Arabs: I don't buy it. Is the concept of spheroid Earth that difficult to convey? No, it's not. I can't believe an omniscient being would espouse (and thereby codify) falsehoods instead of dispelling the ignorance of his readers. He knew people would eventually learn things which contradict his book for all times.

    Quote
    yes, it does, except you're wrong when you say that most of this book is dedicated to threats of punishment and promises of bliss.


    Perhaps not literally most of the book (ie, threatening and bribing sentences take less than half a book) but enough to induce disgust. Fire, boiling water, chains. Appeal to our most basic instincts.

    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #280 - September 01, 2011, 12:21 AM

    @ stuff

    Quote
    Critical thinking is a part of life's experiences. If you want truth, you have to think critically about reality and your place in it.

     
    agreed, but that statement by z10 is the result of critical thinking.... he didn't say don't rationalize, he only gave us the conclusion, and a brilliant one too.

    Quote
    Sure, I'd hold him accountable. I wasn't the one who designed the universe, so I am not directly responsible for what he did. All I can do is respond, and try to make my society better by removing him from it.

    ok. but it would seem you're implying you would act differently if you were the creator? if that is the case, then i can't see how your being the creator or not is relevant. what is relevant is the experience of choice itself.

    Quote
    You know what I wouldn't do, though? I wouldn't torture the sick bastard forever after, because I know he is only a bad apple on the tree of the universe. Neither heroes nor villains have libertarian freedom.

    nor would hitler torture anyone forever, i know that.

    Quote
    Kind of messy...
    I question your premise, as it's not established that the universe is a creation (insofar as "creation" means a product of a creator).
    But even if I grant it, at most 'creation' is evidence for a Deistic God, and not the angry being described in the Qur'an.

    of course, creation only points to a creator, not necessarily the Quranic God, (the creator doesn't even have to be divine or even communicative) but the point of the argument is: cast away deities of whom you have no evidence.

    Quote
    And why couldn't there be many Deistic Gods who designed our universe? Can you give me a reason?

    it partly depends on your definition of the word "God". The Quranic view is that a limited deity, no matter how powerful, is helpless beyond his reign. Such a deity doesn't deserve the title god, because god is absolute. The Quran argues that multiple gods = multiple tyrants who demand worship while being powerless outside their respective domains. So there can only be one God or none. However, a Creator of the universe does not have to be divine. I'm no cosmologist but I would *guess* if a cosmologist would accept the assumption that the universe was created, they would conclude there is only one creator (everything goes back to stardust, etc).
          
    Quote
    You then proceed to...I'm not entirely sure. I guess you use the fact that Qur'an describes a single God as a basis to link Qur'an to the creator of the universe, but that doesn't work

     
    no! I said I judge a religion by its arguments.... this was only one example. There's many arguments in the Quran, mainly about the nature of God, and since they mostly make sense to me, i proceed to conclude this book is from God.

    Quote
    Two people, talking in the same language, can give radically different impressions.
    One can broadcast his ignorance and baseness, while the other can broadcast profound insight and admirable character.

     
    i agree, but I was confused by the objection that the language sounds "human" when the party to which the message is being delivered is human.

    Quote
    As for your defense for misrepresenting reality to ancient Arabs: I don't buy it. Is the concept of spheroid Earth that difficult to convey? No, it's not. I can't believe an omniscient being would espouse (and thereby codify) falsehoods instead of dispelling the ignorance of his readers. He knew people would eventually learn things which contradict his book for all times.

    1- it's not misreprsenting reality, it's using a language to *describe* a scene. Do you think cosmologists today, when they use words like sunrise and sunset, they're misrepresenting the reality? The key difference lies in whether the speaker's goal is to *describe* a scene or to *explain* it. Even brain surgeons use phrases like: *I wish you success from the bottom of my heart*, although they know that heart has nothing to do with emotions. Again, why get so hung up on the language and ignore the message itself? I don't think in my previous two examples, either the cosmologist or the surgeon were wrong in using this (faulty) language in delivering the intended message.
    2- Quran's message/goal has nothing to do with explaining nature, so why even explain it when it doesn't serve its purpose, but can only get in the way of delivering the message itself?
    3- So you're saying if the Quran *explained*, out of nowhere, for for no immediate clear goal, that the earth was a sphere (against everyone's observations), then that would have been enough for you? how about explaining the spinning of the earth (again, against everyone's observations)? Would those two be enough?
    4- how hard is it to explain? i would think it would have sounded as crazy as trying to convince someone that rivers don't pour into seas but it's the other way around. why does it sound crazy? because it goes against observations. is it even relevant to the message of the holy book? no. So why even mention it? just because it 'might' impress someone in the future at the cost of jeoprodizing the entire new message?

    Quote
    Perhaps not literally most of the book (ie, threatening and bribing sentences take less than half a book) but enough to induce disgust. Fire, boiling water, chains. Appeal to our most basic instincts.

     
    one could argue that it would have been enough if the Quran just said: there's paradise where you can have whatever you want and everlasting peace and there's hell with everlasting torment and stop at that. But the repititions and details help prove that Hell/Paradise are not metaphorical concepts, but real actual abodes. Plus, the Quran is for everyone, so simpletons, who can barely understand anything beyond the concepts of reward and punishment would be at a great disadvantage, if the Quran didn't emphasize this point enough.

    As far as I'm concerned, reward and punishment are secondary to why I worship God.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #281 - September 01, 2011, 01:06 AM

    @Debunker, if you don't want to bother answering yet another question being fired at you in this thread then ignore this post, if you don't mind then read ahead.  Smiley



    the same applies to *temporary* Hell. There is no point in temporary punishment as a deterrent from repeating the offences when you already know the offender won't (or even can't) do it again. However, temporary punishment does serve justice for sins committed against other men.

    Some Christians would argue that *eternal* punishment is the only possible way to balance out a sin committed against God (since a sin committted against God has an infinite weight). Of course the Quran strongly rejects this idea, since the Quran clearly indicates that our sins hurt God none, and we can only hurt ourselves by our sins (imagining that our sins can have any effect at all on God is a deification of ourselves).  

    So what's the point of eternal Hell? I discussed this with Hassan here:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8392.0

    but very briefly, I can think of Hell as the worst possible condition which God wouldn't change for me if He simply doesn't care to.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #282 - September 01, 2011, 01:42 AM

    So essentially your answer is the islamic god especially doesn't like the proud people and will throw them in hell forever cause it's what he wants. Correct me if I'm wrong ofc.

    One more question: You mentioned that creation implies a creator. How do you know we are creation? Thanks.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #283 - September 01, 2011, 12:44 PM

    Debunker in response to the question; Why do you love God? You replied you don't have the time to explain. You've spent alot of time replying, will you answer the question now then?
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #284 - September 01, 2011, 12:50 PM

    3- So you're saying if the Quran *explained*, out of nowhere, for for no immediate clear goal, that the earth was a sphere (against everyone's observations),


    Aristotle and Eratosthenes both inferred that the earth was a sphere through observation, and wrote about it over 600 years before Muhammad existed.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #285 - September 01, 2011, 04:53 PM

    @ stuff
     
    agreed, but that statement by z10 is the result of critical thinking.... he didn't say don't rationalize, he only gave us the conclusion, and a brilliant one too.


    I share his view (that experience of choice is more important) but we have to critically examine our alleged freedom in order to fully assess the tenability of Allah concept…Which is kind of what I’m trying to do here. A man can live his whole life without thinking in depth about philosophy or theology, but that fact shouldn't be used to discourage thinking about them.

    Quote
    ok. but it would seem you're implying you would act differently if you were the creator? if that is the case, then i can't see how your being the creator or not is relevant. what is relevant is the experience of choice itself.


    Of course I would act differently! If I was the one who designed the universe, I would not hold the guy responsible. He only did what I designed him to do, and I’d assume total responsibility.

    Again you’re with your experience of choice. What of it? Is it some sort of attempt to shift the responsibility off from the Creator and unto his toy soldiers?

    Quote
    nor would hitler torture anyone forever, i know that.


    You love Allah way more than Hitler though. In Hassan thread (that I glossed over) you wrote that you love him for the beauty of his creation. You’ll disagree, but I don’t think all the beauty in the universe is worth eternal suffering of billions. Too high a price, and seemingly unnecessary for omnipotent being.

    Quote
    of course, creation only points to a creator, not necessarily the Quranic God, (the creator doesn't even have to be divine or even communicative) but the point of the argument is: cast away deities of whom you have no evidence.


    If the bolded part is your conclusion, than it's not very controversial and hardly needs an argument to support it. What I'd be interested to see is an argument for why Qur'an says the truth.

    Quote
    it partly depends on your definition of the word "God".


    I use "god" in the broadest sense: a powerful being who is responsible for creating or controlling nature (or aspects of it).
    Quote
    The Quranic view is that a limited deity, no matter how powerful, is helpless beyond his reign.
    Such a deity doesn't deserve the title god, because god is absolute. The Quran argues that multiple gods = multiple tyrants who demand worship while being powerless outside their respective domains. So there can only be one God or none.


    Doesn't sound convincing.
    First of all, you have to concede that omnipotence has limits if you want to circumvent the Problem of Evil and numerous logical paradoxes (creating a rock so heavy he can't lift, etc). You can't define something into existence, so saying that God means "an absolute being" isn't an argument for this being's existence. I'm guessing the author of Qur'an thought of old pagan Gods when he "argued" that multiple Gods must be egotistical tyrants who compete for worship of puny humans. Why must they be like that? A city is designed by many men, couldn't the universe be designed by many Gods? That's not what I believe obviously, I'm just curious.

    Quote
    However, a Creator of the universe does not have to be divine. I'm no cosmologist but I would *guess* if a cosmologist would accept the assumption that the universe was created, they would conclude there is only one creator (everything goes back to stardust, etc).


    Probably. I'm willing to bet most cosmologists are not theists, though.
            
    Quote
    no! I said I judge a religion by its arguments.... this was only one example. There's many arguments in the Quran, mainly about the nature of God, and since they mostly make sense to me, i proceed to conclude this book is from God.


    Ooook then.
     
    Quote
    i agree, but I was confused by the objection that the language sounds "human" when the party to which the message is being delivered is human.


    Not just human, but a 7th century human. Unsophisticated, fairly ignorant, and superstitious 7th century man - not an omnipotent creator of 100+ billion galaxies. Hell, I can't even believe that omnipotent creator would employ visions to select people as a means to communicate with all mankind. It's prone to human error, slow, and highly suspicious given history of false prophets.

    Quote
    1- it's not misreprsenting reality, it's using a language to *describe* a scene. Do you think cosmologists today, when they use words like sunrise and sunset, they're misrepresenting the reality? The key difference lies in whether the speaker's goal is to *describe* a scene or to *explain* it. Even brain surgeons use phrases like: *I wish you success from the bottom of my heart*, although they know that heart has nothing to do with emotions. Again, why get so hung up on the language and ignore the message itself? I don't think in my previous two examples, either the cosmologist or the surgeon were wrong in using this (faulty) language in delivering the intended message.


    People today aren't as ignorant as they were in 7th century Arabia; they know those are just metaphors. Experts don't run the risk of confusing or misleading their audience.

    Quote
    2- Quran's message/goal has nothing to do with explaining nature, so why even explain it when it doesn't serve its purpose, but can only get in the way of delivering the message itself?


    It serves a purpose: establishing the divinity of the author. Which in turn makes the entire message more relevant. Revealing new scientific knowledge is far more impressive than mirroring scientific ignorance of the age. It's conducive to convincing the masses of your godliness.

    Quote
    3- So you're saying if the Quran *explained*, out of nowhere, for for no immediate clear goal, that the earth was a sphere (against everyone's observations), then that would have been enough for you? how about explaining the spinning of the earth (again, against everyone's observations)? Would those two be enough?


    Not for me, no. Pythagoras figured out that Earth was a spinning sphere long before Muhammad's parents met each other. Still, it would've been an improvement. Add a bunch of accurate (and previously unknown) explanations and I might have believed that the author is God.

    Quote
    4- how hard is it to explain? i would think it would have sounded as crazy as trying to convince someone that rivers don't pour into seas but it's the other way around. why does it sound crazy? because it goes against observations.

     
    Pythagoras figured it out all by himself, without an all-powerful God explaining it to him in a book. Do you think omnipotent being is so incompetent as to not be capable of imparting knowledge in humans?


    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #286 - September 01, 2011, 09:09 PM

    thanks for the replies. I got to page 4 and it seemed to deviate from the original purpose.

    But keep the lists coming. I will compile them shortly.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #287 - September 01, 2011, 10:00 PM

    Blimey man! How many lists do you need?


    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #288 - September 01, 2011, 10:28 PM

    Wise, wise fly!


    Blimey i missed that too!

    Oh you sweet flaterer! Wink

    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #289 - September 01, 2011, 11:05 PM

    Salam debunker, I hope you don't mind asking me but could you please give a summary of the authorities you adhere to?
    I understand that you are a Muslim, but do you accept for example the Ahadith or adhere to one of the four current sunni Madhab's?
    (You have interesting views on certain subjects.)


    The Noble Qur'an -  Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #290 - September 01, 2011, 11:33 PM

    @iSoK:
    See this quote from this thread:
    I'm a Muslim who doesn't believe in the authority of (Sunni) Scholars, but this doesn't mean I necessarily reject (all) their works. I also believe in the basic Mutazilite attitude towards religion (reason precedes all), but I disagree with many of their conclusions.


    btw, debunker has said in the past he believes every Muslim should be their own scholar.

    Also, if you want more fun reading debunker's views, check out this thread: Story of Moses in the Quran  dance

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #291 - September 14, 2011, 06:41 AM

    @Stuff - You mentioned
    Quote
    "Of course I would act differently! If I was the one who designed the universe, I would not hold the guy responsible. He only did what I designed him to do, and I’d assume total responsibility.

    Again you’re with your experience of choice. What of it? Is it some sort of attempt to shift the responsibility off from the Creator and unto his toy soldiers?"


    God has created man with 'free will'. If God is all powerful, why cant he do this?? It is GODs choice that HE gave us free will. And HE will judge us based on our deeds. Thats it! Its plain simple.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #292 - September 14, 2011, 06:53 AM

    @ateapotist - Did you leave Islam coz you couldnt accept the truth or because you just didnt care?
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #293 - September 14, 2011, 08:19 AM

    @trueandtrusted:
    Coz I couldn't accept the truth of course.  Roll Eyes

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #294 - September 14, 2011, 10:33 AM

    @Stuff - You mentioned
    God has created man with 'free will'. If God is all powerful, why cant he do this?? It is GODs choice that HE gave us free will. And HE will judge us based on our deeds. Thats it! Its plain simple.


    If everything is preordained by God then we don't have free will.

    If nothing happens without God making it happen, then it's irrational to think that God would torture mankind for something that they aren't ultimately responsible for.

    And if God is omniscient and knew what mankind would do before he created them, then it's irrational to think that he would torture us eternally for displeasing him.  

  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #295 - September 17, 2011, 11:54 AM


    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #296 - January 19, 2014, 12:57 PM

    Hi all,

    Many apologies to forum members who responded to my request. I meant to return to this thread but life got in the way. It's been a while since I was here.

    I would greatly appreciate it if someone could summarise the most popular objections against Quran. After page 4 it went off track.

    I will get round to it eventually. For those that dont know me, read my past posts on this forum, you will find them interesting I assure you.


    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #297 - January 19, 2014, 01:07 PM

    There are two competing hypotheses.
    1. the quran was revealed by allah to muhammed
    2. the quran was made up by muhammed and/or other men living in the desert in the 7th century.

    There is not a single reason to believe the former.
    The latter is already a fully complete explanation of the quran.

    Ochkham's razor and all other principles of rational thought, dictate that the second hypothesis, being more parsimonious, and more elegant, is the more likely to be true.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #298 - January 19, 2014, 01:10 PM

    Hi everyone,

     ...............................
    Please note, I am not a Muslim and I do not follow Traditional Islam. I have researched Islam/Quran quite a bit however. See my intro post.


    Let me know your thoughts.

       and WhoMan wrote here
    Quote
    hi all,

    I was born into a Traditional Muslim family but I've never been into religion. I'm more of a free-thinking truth-seeking kinda guy, no matter its source.

    ....

    Hello WhoMan  good to see you back after 3 years... just curious., how did you escape  all those religious rigid rules specially coming from Traditional Muslim family?    You must have come from very rich well educated  progressive Muslim family.. correct me if I am wrong..

    The next point is., we will discuss on that errors in Quran,  

    But suppose Quran  doesn't have any errors.,  Then in your view, would a book without any errors in it will automatically become word of Allah?  or is there any other good reasons to believe that Quran is word of Allah?

    Again welcome back to CEMB and happy new year
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #299 - January 19, 2014, 07:46 PM

    5 strongest arguments against the Quran:

    1) The quran

    2) Sanity

    3) Reality

    4) Nonsense

    5) Common sense

    Hope I helped. Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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