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 Topic: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?

 (Read 64694 times)
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  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #360 - March 30, 2014, 02:48 AM

    It was 30 days yesterday.


    Once someone creates an answer he will copy/paste it over here. Just give him time people!  finmad
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #361 - March 30, 2014, 11:21 AM

    Someone probably advised him that it is pointless to argue with the kuffar and apostates so better not waste time on us in case we be his shayateen who lure him from the path of allah.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #362 - April 13, 2014, 11:16 AM

    Took some time to read AND compile the list. Here it is:

    New objections will not be accepted.

    ///

    harakaat
    My problems with the Quran:

    - It assumes free will exists
    - Morality is based on a reward/punishment system
    - Implies that science -- observation of the universe -- leads to theism -- I'm not convinced by any rationalistic approaches to religion and the only argument for theism I respect is the argument from personal experience/hidaya/fitra
    - Hell. Metaphorical or not, those verses should *not* be in a holy book written by a perfect, all-loving god
    - Eye for an eye morality (compare with Christian teachings)
    - Too much emphasis on legislation and minute matters
    - Obedience is more important than morality (eg. Abraham's sacrifice story, good deeds being useless without belief. Compare with the Buddha commanding his followers to disobey him if their minds do not agree with what he says)
    - The sexism
    - The xenophobia (Do not take Jews/Christians as friends/protectors? Compare with the Baha'i Faith)
    - Demands belief without hard evidence

    Also, I don't understand how God's apathy = eternal torture. Why doesn't he just wipe us out of existence? Why is it either bliss or torture?


    ///

    strangestdude
    I think one of the strongest arguments against the Quran is that there isn't any conclusive evidence of a deity.

    Would you like to provide evidence?

    ///

    Hassan
    It condemns disbelievers to eternal torture for not believing when there's no undeniable or irrefutable evidence it's true and not just made up shit. This is both irrational and excessively cruel. So either God is a sick and cruel sadist who likes playing games or it's bullshit.

    ///

    tussude
    well i didn't have time to search but i have one for you and you gotta stop wasting peoples time.

    "والارض بعد ذلك دحاها"
    the meaning of "دحاها" is
    والدحو والدحي يقال : دحوت ودحيت . واقتصر الجوهري على الواوي وهو الجاري في كلام المفسرين هو = البسط والمد بتسوية

     flat = البسط والمد بتسوية

    so your god thinks that the earth he made is flat... very clear... & end of the story

    ///

    muddy
    Faulty embryology: Quran thinks bones are clothed with flesh! In reality, there is no clothing of bones with flesh. It happens simultaneously.
    (Now don't waste my time for exact references. This forum is full of it. So does internet. Your your searching skills, if you have any)

    Yajooj/Majooj story with huge wall (18:92-99): Doesn't exist anywhere in the world. Check satellite from google or mapquest.

    Male supremacy/Objectification of women: Husband can beat wife, but not vice versa (4:34).. Man can marry multiple women, women can't. Two women equate to one man in witness and inheritance. Men can get 72 houri's, women can't..

    Its ok to collect war booty as long as you give prophet the 20% share (8:41).

    Many other special verses for prophet's own luxury like 33:50 where he (Allah) allowed any woman to give herself to prophet as a gift. Or other special verse like linger not in the meals prophet invites you as that annoys the prophet (33:53)

    ///

    debunker
    There's no conclusive evidence Quran is God's word (nor should there be one, otherwise, there won't be any other choice but to believe). A religion (any religion) is a set of claims and arguments. I judge a religion by its arguemnts, as there's no way to verify its claims.

    oh, so that's what you meant? then there's no need for a discussion. I said it before, and I'll say it again, I do not think that even the worst criminals in humanity would allow the eternal torture of other men.

    ///

    homo sapien
    5 strongest arguments against Quran/Islam:

    1) Shahadah
    2)Salat
    3)Zakat
    4)Fasting in Ramadan
    5) Hajj

    ///

    dr_sloth
    There are two competing hypotheses.
    1. the quran was revealed by allah to muhammed
    2. the quran was made up by muhammed and/or other men living in the desert in the 7th century.

    There is not a single reason to believe the former.
    The latter is already a fully complete explanation of the quran.

    Ochkham's razor and all other principles of rational thought, dictate that the second hypothesis, being more parsimonious, and more elegant, is the more likely to be true.

    ///

    Quod sum eris
    5 strongest arguments against the Quran:

    1) The quran

    2) Sanity

    3) Reality

    4) Nonsense

    5) Common sense

    Later clarified: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=17132.msg732724#msg732724

    ///

    inception
    1-Revealed only in Arabic and how should I expect that the translations are correct?
    2-Has plagiarised other Religions
    3-Scientifically wrong
    4-if God is omnipotent why did he need the help of a Man to spread his messagge?
    5-Religious Ideas started to develop around 50,000 yrs ago and Islam is just 1400 years old.

    ///

    Descent
    1)Scientific Inaccuracies
    2)Scientific Inaccuracies
    3)Scientific Inaccuracies
    4)Scientific Inaccuracies
    5)Scientific Inaccuracies

    Already answered: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=17132.msg732534#msg732534

    ///

    Descent
    Anyone with a basic understanding of biology will the laugh at the idea that is virgin birth, something that is universally agreed as having happened by both Muslims and Catholics. Four other examples would be, Moses splitting the sea, creationism, living creatures created in pairs, and Jinn.

    ///

    Cornflower
    Not to forget the idea that someone can survive after spending days in a fish's belly... Or other toomfoolery like allah coming down to the nearest heaven

    ///





    debunker, who seems knowledgeable of Quran, had some discussion with some members mid-way, wherein some issues were raised and discussed/answered.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #363 - April 13, 2014, 11:18 AM

    I will now review them to see if there are recurrent objections, and compile 5. Or more likely, I will just try and address all the ones that are specific enough to allow a reply.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #364 - April 13, 2014, 12:45 PM

    My replies in bold, in brief.

    harakaat
    My problems with the Quran:

    - It assumes free will exists
    It is sometimes said such free will/choice is an illusion, as God (as per Quran, although some dispute this) knows what we will do.
    In my view, foreknowledge someone will do X does not mean that someone is forced to do X and has no choice. Some people do not accept this. As discussed on this thread previously, and by myself and others in other threads, we experience choice, and all evidence I experience points to we have free choice.
    Also, member debunker pointed to a thread wherein he discussed it reasonably well, and there are many pages online discussing this.
    The question flipped, can it be proven free choice does not exist? I dont think so.



     
    - Morality is based on a reward/punishment system
    Not entirely. Humans have an in-built program to some extent [see 30:30] thus there are universal principles that all societies find bad. Ironically, this is shown by those who claim they do not believe in anything, e.g. reward/heaven punishment/hell.

    - Implies that science -- observation of the universe -- leads to theism -- I'm not convinced by any rationalistic approaches to religion and the only argument for theism I respect is the argument from personal experience/hidaya/fitra
    It implies this many times. This objection is your own personal preference, no specific argument against Quran.

    - Hell. Metaphorical or not, those verses should *not* be in a holy book written by a perfect, all-loving god
    Again, personal preference. Also discussed by member debunker. I assume you expect a God, if one existed, not to put such content in a book and keep this info hidden from us, then subject us to it. Or perhaps not have any kind of hell, rendering the test irrelevant. But we are dealing with the argument that if a God existed. You will note many atheists objections, if corrected to conform to the apparent point in their arguments, results in rather odd results.

    - Eye for an eye morality (compare with Christian teachings)
    Wrong. Quran instructs equivalence or less, as the general rule.

    - Too much emphasis on legislation and minute matters
    Again, personal preference, and no specifics. If Quran is what it says it is, then it has to cater for all people at all times. I assume that is why it has quite a bit of info in it.

    - Obedience is more important than morality (eg. Abraham's sacrifice story, good deeds being useless without belief. Compare with the Buddha commanding his followers to disobey him if their minds do not agree with what he says)
    Do you have other examples? The Abraham sacrifice story is interesting in that the Quranic evidence can also suggest sacrifice his son as in leave his son for a noble cause, i.e. spread God's message. The origin of the root word in question is split/divide. It also coincides with how Abraham is never mentioned with his both sons together, and nor are they mentioned being together after this "sacrifice" story. Abraham establishes God's system but with only one son, not the other. There is quite a bit of evidence for this as per Quran's language.

    - The sexism
    Need specifics, sorry. Majority is not based on Quran. See http://misconceptions-about-islam.com

    - The xenophobia (Do not take Jews/Christians as friends/protectors? Compare with the Baha'i Faith)
    Again, need specifics. Quran clearly states some are righteous, trustworthy, and have nothing to fear on judgement day etc etc. You are likely referring to a specific context/relationship.

    - Demands belief without hard evidence
    Quran repeatedly over and over tells us how to confirm what it says, by life experience, biology, the universe, history, human psyche, its teachings, its construction/style/content/structure etc etc

    Also, I don't understand how God's apathy = eternal torture. Why doesn't he just wipe us out of existence? Why is it either bliss or torture?
    There are two arguments on this: eternal hell, or however long hell exists, see:
    http://www.19.org/193/eternal-hell-and-merciful-god/
    Some other arguments go along like: a bad person would continue to do bad if they lived forever, hence their punishment is forever.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #365 - April 13, 2014, 01:16 PM

    I expected your responses to be bad, but not quite that bad. Why did you even bother?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #366 - April 13, 2014, 01:27 PM


    - It assumes free will exists
    It is sometimes said such free will/choice is an illusion, as God (as per Quran, although some dispute this) knows what we will do.
    In my view, foreknowledge someone will do X does not mean that someone is forced to do X and has no choice. Some people do not accept this. As discussed on this thread previously, and by myself and others in other threads, we experience choice, and all evidence I experience points to we have free choice.
    Also, member debunker pointed to a thread wherein he discussed it reasonably well, and there are many pages online discussing this.
    The question flipped, can it be proven free choice does not exist? I dont think so.

    Also, I don't understand how God's apathy = eternal torture. Why doesn't he just wipe us out of existence? Why is it either bliss or torture?
    There are two arguments on this: eternal hell, or however long hell exists, see:
    http://www.19.org/193/eternal-hell-and-merciful-god/
    Some other arguments go along like: a bad person would continue to do bad if they lived forever, hence their punishment is forever.



    You're basically contradicting yourself as well as Islam, and common sense. First of all, no, you are right, foreknowledge does not mean that free will does not exist. But then you go on and use an extremely deterministic argument to prove (?) that eternal hell for "bad" people (the definition can be discussed) isn't unjust. Furthermore, Islam doesn't recognize that a person can change or what is tawbah for anyway? There's a reason why Islamic theology highlights the importance to repent before it's "too late", because Islam in one hand admits that people can change, but on the other hand that a "bad" person would spend eternity being "bad". Logically and intellectually it doesn't make any sense.

    By the way, you like to use the "context" argument for everything. That is not how it works, because even traditional Islamic mufassireen are unanimously agreeing that the verses about non-Muslims being "rewarded" or whatever is abrogated by one of the final revelations which states that "I have chosen Islam as  your faith". It's really no use discussing with you about the Quran because you (apparently) hold a Quranistic attitude towards Islam as a whole,which is intellectually dishonest and quite frankly ignorant (which I have discussed in other threads), and want to ignore 1400 years of Quranic exegesis and ijmaa about certain core beliefs. No ones interested in your half-assed "new-age" tafseer of the Quran.

    I'm out.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #367 - April 13, 2014, 02:15 PM

    Grin Whoman, take it from a former "intellectually dishonest and quite frankly ignorant" Quranist that nothing you're saying makes sense, nor does it address anyone's qualms. Everything in your post has been so vague that I don't see anything sticking out that I should necessarily speak about? It just all looks like lazy attempts to dodge criticisms, no offense.

    But you're performing a hard balancing act, the same one I used to do all of the time. It took me a while to realize that I was always either watering down the Quran, or watering down my own morality/intellect to try to get them to fit with what I knew was true. In the end, I wasn't doing either of them any favors, and, from that post of yours alone, it looks like you aren't, either.

    This part alone "If Quran is what it says it is, then it has to cater for all people at all times," if you truly accept it, is something that is going to get in your way a lot when you're trying to make the Quranist view more plausible and tolerable to yourself or others. It turns out it can be a huge thorn in your side when you're a "Quranist" apologist.
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #368 - April 13, 2014, 05:37 PM

    My replies in bold, in brief.

    harakaat
    My problems with the Quran:

    - It assumes free will exists
    It is sometimes said such free will/choice is an illusion, as God (as per Quran, although some dispute this) knows what we will do.
    In my view, foreknowledge someone will do X does not mean that someone is forced to do X and has no choice. Some people do not accept this. As discussed on this thread previously, and by myself and others in other threads, we experience choice, and all evidence I experience points to we have free choice.
    Also, member debunker pointed to a thread wherein he discussed it reasonably well, and there are many pages online discussing this.
    The question flipped, can it be proven free choice does not exist? I dont think so.






     

    [/b]


    Eeeerm Whaaaaaaaaaaat??? Can it be proven that free choice does not exist? What the fuck kind question is this? So if you commit suicide tomorrow, it will be deemed as what god willed for you but it was also your choice, but if you chose to live then that is what god willed for you and that is also your choice...... either way you can pull the god wills and choice cards out of your arse

    Ye seems legit

    make me muslims again whoman

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #369 - April 13, 2014, 06:05 PM

    Guys, let the poor guy talk. I'm interested in what hocus pocus he'll come up with on virgin birth. Mostly for a good laugh of course.
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #370 - April 13, 2014, 06:06 PM

    o i have no objection to be entertained  Cool

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #371 - April 13, 2014, 06:06 PM

    ^ He's just going to tell you that God is capable of everything, so why wouldn't he be capable of something as simple as a virgin birth.  wacko
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #372 - April 13, 2014, 06:14 PM

    Yeah, I suppose I've heard most, if not all the arguments, most which invoke the power of magic.
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #373 - April 13, 2014, 06:15 PM

    Well honestly i wonder what is the most creative response to the virgin birth

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #374 - April 13, 2014, 10:19 PM

    - Morality is based on a reward/punishment system
    Not entirely. Humans have an in-built program to some extent [see 30:30] thus there are universal principles that all societies find bad. Ironically, this is shown by those who claim they do not believe in anything, e.g. reward/heaven punishment/hell.


    All you have shown is that us, humans, create systems of justice and law which punish people which commit actions against society. However society itself does not reward people for pleasantries as religion puts forward. People are not rewarded for being pious, worshiping, charity, etc. Society rewards people which excel at a career and take advantage of their situations. Often the wrong people are rewarded such as those that take advantage of other people in order to profit. Take modern industry for example. The common man is not rewarded by society, the one which owns the industry is rewarded. The owner becomes rich. not the worker.

    One can accept human societies reward and punish while rejecting a religious based concept. After all we have examples of these societies and no example of the heaven/hell version. We have descriptions of the religion based concept but no evidence based example we can cross-reference with human based systems. I can accept democracy in human nations but i am free to reject democracy on planet xyz. One can be examined, one can only be described by those not present on planet xyz

    - Implies that science -- observation of the universe -- leads to theism -- I'm not convinced by any rationalistic approaches to religion and the only argument for theism I respect is the argument from personal experience/hidaya/fitra
    It implies this many times. This objection is your own personal preference, no specific argument against Quran.


    Since science has not come to a consensus of God or no God we need to turn to other methods. You propose no evidence for the state of "It implies this many times". I see no reason to accept your response as anything other than your own personal preference.

    - Obedience is more important than morality (eg. Abraham's sacrifice story, good deeds being useless without belief. Compare with the Buddha commanding his followers to disobey him if their minds do not agree with what he says)
    Do you have other examples? The Abraham sacrifice story is interesting in that the Quranic evidence can also suggest sacrifice his son as in leave his son for a noble cause, i.e. spread God's message. The origin of the root word in question is split/divide. It also coincides with how Abraham is never mentioned with his both sons together, and nor are they mentioned being together after this "sacrifice" story. Abraham establishes God's system but with only one son, not the other. There is quite a bit of evidence for this as per Quran's language.


    So we have multiple interpretations. Is it a human sacrifice or a abandonment cause? Is it Issac or Ishmael? Until you state which one you hold to be true there is no point in responding further. You can just hid in the later interpretation when one finds fault in the former. You just dodge the question so your response is moot.

    - Demands belief without hard evidence
    Quran repeatedly over and over tells us how to confirm what it says, by life experience, biology, the universe, history, human psyche, its teachings, its construction/style/content/structure etc etc


    I did not find confirmation, I found the Quran was grossly inaccurate. So now what?
     
    Also, I don't understand how God's apathy = eternal torture. Why doesn't he just wipe us out of existence? Why is it either bliss or torture?
    There are two arguments on this: eternal hell, or however long hell exists, see:
    http://www.19.org/193/eternal-hell-and-merciful-god/
    Some other arguments go along like: a bad person would continue to do bad if they lived forever, hence their punishment is forever.



    People can reform. How many polytheists became Muslims? Were they not bad people before but changed? This is a very black and white argument which contradicts Islam at it's core.


    So far I find most of your response just dodge the question by hiding in other interpretations. The one question you did actually answered was only an assertion backed up by nothing. The ones I did not answer were so devoid of content that an response would be pointless and probably a straw-man. Put a little more thought into your answers rather than quick one liners which amount to "No, I disagree".
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #375 - May 08, 2014, 04:31 PM

    Here is why Islam is bullshit:

    - God states has no needs yet he created us. By creating us he attribuites a desire (for worship) to himself. So Allah has a desire? Well that then leads us to belive that he is not content without this desire AND contenetment = neccesity. So in conclusion Allah NEEDS us! This is contradictory with the Quran!

    - Allah calls himself The Most Merciful yet he belives eternal punishment is OK. That is contradictory, would a Merciful God not have mercy upon his creations and take them out of the Hellfire.

    - Allah calls himself the Most Merciful yet he creates people destined for hell. That again is contradictory.

    - If Allah truly was the Most Merciful would it not be Merciful for him to include Scientific Evidencies in the Quran to prove his excistance?

    - If Allah truly desired to be worshipped then why is that he dosen't prove his excistance and instead uses a unreliable medium (us/prophets).

    - In many verses in the Quran Allah talks about a flat earth yet never a round one!

    - Islam collides with Science. First off it is Geocentric which has been disporving thus disproving Allah's legitamacy! Secondly Evolution and DNA has shown us that "Adam and Eve" cannot excist!

    - In one verse Allah says that he created all creations in pairs. The problem with that is that we know of asexual lizards. There is a certian species of Lizard that is FEMALE ONLY.

    - Muhammed is mean't to be the prefect human yet he is FAR FROM IT. He was 60 and had sex with a 9yr old. He raped a slave after killing her husband, children and tribe. He had sex with his wife's slave.
    Muhammed is far from prefect!

    - Any inconstiancy in Islam automatically disproves it as a dinvine being wouldn't make mistakes nor "stupid shit" as I like to call it Smiley.

    So there you go Smiley.

    Quote
    Ash'hadu An La Ilaha - I bare witness that there is no God.

  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #376 - May 08, 2014, 06:18 PM

    Yeah, stick THOSE in your hashish pipe and smoke them, musclemans!

  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #377 - May 08, 2014, 07:01 PM

    Woohooooo, where the party at?
    wait, what?

    "Ours is the age which is proud of machines that think and suspicious of men who try to."
    هذا من فضل جدي
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #378 - May 08, 2014, 07:10 PM

    1. It you put a bunch of creation myths on the table, the quran wouldn't stand out. There is nothing in there that is surprising to find in a 7th century creation myth from the Arabian desert. In addition, it contains lots of things that we would expect - 7 heavens, dome of heavens split from the earth, and raised up. It contains loads of the really common creation myth motifs.

    2. The quran doth protest/boast it's brilliance far too much

    3. The only four arguments it makes in order to convince you of it's claims are:
    a) Mere insistence that it is all true
    b) A childish example of the teleological argument, repeated over and over.
    c) threats of violence and torture.
    d) illogical challenges

    i.e, there is zero evidence in favour of it's extraordinary claims.

    It is the rational and scientific thing to do to start with the assumption that the quran is man made. This is the falsifiable position - the null hypothesis. If it is wrong, it can be shown to be wrong, and we can change our minds.
    The same is not true of the alternative hypothesis. There is nothing that cannot be explained away with 'Allah knows best'. Post hoc rationalizations have no end, and we observe it when we talk to Muslims.
    The absence of evidence in favour of a miraculous quran in this case can be considered evidence of absence.

    4. The scientific errors; logical errors; senseless challenges; pointless repetition; pointless verses, passages, and surahs; ambiguity; debunked arguments; contradictions; stupid commands, over compensation and brain malfunctions that we just don't expect from an all knowing being. Even if we are being generous to the quran, and assuming the verses actualy mean something else, that simply means that it is poorly written, which is itself, just not good enough for an all knowing being.

    5. &#160;The sheer desperation of dawah:
    The censorship; the lies, the stupidity; the quote mining; the plagiarism; the pseudo intellectualism; the hypocrisy; the excuses; the begging - they all help paint the picture that not only is the quran not that spectacular, - but also that the Muslims themselves know it too.
    Dawahtrons fail the Turing test.. There is no human thinking process going on.
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #379 - May 09, 2014, 05:56 AM

    Another reason I find the Quran to be a stupid book, is that it claims to be a) a clear book in Arabic, and b) universal for all people and all time.

    First of all, the Quran admits that it is full of "mutashaabihaat", and that no one fully understands these verses but allah. I find it strange that allah would claim a book is clear, when he puts in verses no man will ever fully grasp, while allah knowing that it'll create problems and conflicts for hundred and thousands of years. Second of all, the Quran is not in a CLEAR ARABIC, even linguistically speaking. If we ignore the poor grammar here and there, or the many loan words, not even the Arab companions of Mo understood certain Arabic words and expressions used. There's a hadith when a bedouin comes to visit Mo, and if I remember correctly something happens to his camel. He curses it and uses a verb, which I can't for the life of me remember (it was an "active" verb). One of the companions then say, "until now I have not understood this verse, but now that I heard this bedouin use it in a sentence I finally understand, the meaning of one of allah's verses has become clear". Seriously? You had to taught, unintentionally I might add, by a bedouin who speaks a specific bedouin dialect of his tribe in order to understand GOD'S WORD? Muslim scholars actually use this narration to illustrate the many ways allah informed us about the meaning of his book Roll Eyes basically, the very opposite of what this story REALLY tells us. This takes us to the second point...

    In light of all this, it seems strange for a book to claim itself to be universal and for all times when not even the native speakers of that time could fully understand it. It also seems pretty strange for an all-powerful creating god to chose a multiple of Arabic dialects and loan words to convey his UNCREATED speech. It sounds ludacris, doesn't it? And this is only briefly touching upon the linguistic side of these points. Content wise, the Quran is so full of shit that "expert" scholars had to spend hours upon hours in order to squeeze out every and any existing or imaginary "wisdom". Reading Madaarij al Saalikeen illustrates just how silky it is. It's because these people knew deep down what a shitty book it really is, so they had to cover it up. Who said Muslim scholars didn't engage in cognitive dissonance Smiley

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #380 - May 09, 2014, 08:32 AM

    1. It you put a bunch of creation myths on the table, the quran wouldn't stand out. There is nothing in there that is surprising to find in a 7th century creation myth from the Arabian desert. In addition, it contains lots of things that we would expect - 7 heavens, dome of heavens split from the earth, and raised up. It contains loads of the really common creation myth motifs.

    2. The quran doth protest/boast it's brilliance far too much

    3. The only four arguments it makes in order to convince you of it's claims are:
    a) Mere insistence that it is all true
    b) A childish example of the teleological argument, repeated over and over.
    c) threats of violence and torture.
    d) illogical challenges

    i.e, there is zero evidence in favour of it's extraordinary claims.

    It is the rational and scientific thing to do to start with the assumption that the quran is man made. This is the falsifiable position - the null hypothesis. If it is wrong, it can be shown to be wrong, and we can change our minds.
    The same is not true of the alternative hypothesis. There is nothing that cannot be explained away with 'Allah knows best'. Post hoc rationalizations have no end, and we observe it when we talk to Muslims.
    The absence of evidence in favour of a miraculous quran in this case can be considered evidence of absence.

    4. The scientific errors; logical errors; senseless challenges; pointless repetition; pointless verses, passages, and surahs; ambiguity; debunked arguments; contradictions; stupid commands, over compensation and brain malfunctions that we just don't expect from an all knowing being. Even if we are being generous to the quran, and assuming the verses actualy mean something else, that simply means that it is poorly written, which is itself, just not good enough for an all knowing being.

    5.  The sheer desperation of dawah:
    The censorship; the lies, the stupidity; the quote mining; the plagiarism; the pseudo intellectualism; the hypocrisy; the excuses; the begging - they all help paint the picture that not only is the quran not that spectacular, - but also that the Muslims themselves know it too.


    Not only that but He promises gardens, that is paradise. What if I want a snowy land hmm?
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #381 - May 09, 2014, 05:41 PM

    Eeeerm Whaaaaaaaaaaat??? Can it be proven that free choice does not exist? What the fuck kind question is this? So if you commit suicide tomorrow, it will be deemed as what god willed for you but it was also your choice, but if you chose to live then that is what god willed for you and that is also your choice...... either way you can pull the god wills and choice cards out of your arse

    Ye seems legit

    make me muslims again whoman

    LOL sweet Smiley
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #382 - May 09, 2014, 06:01 PM

    Another reason I find the Quran to be a stupid book, is that it claims to be a) a clear book in Arabic, and b) universal for all people and all time.

    First of all, the Quran admits that it is full of "mutashaabihaat", and that no one fully understands these verses but allah. I find it strange that allah would claim a book is clear, when he puts in verses no man will ever fully grasp, while allah knowing that it'll create problems and conflicts for hundred and thousands of years. Second of all, the Quran is not in a CLEAR ARABIC, even linguistically speaking. If we ignore the poor grammar here and there, or the many loan words, not even the Arab companions of Mo understood certain Arabic words and expressions used. There's a hadith when a bedouin comes to visit Mo, and if I remember correctly something happens to his camel. He curses it and uses a verb, which I can't for the life of me remember (it was an "active" verb). One of the companions then say, "until now I have not understood this verse, but now that I heard this bedouin use it in a sentence I finally understand, the meaning of one of allah's verses has become clear". Seriously? You had to taught, unintentionally I might add, by a bedouin who speaks a specific bedouin dialect of his tribe in order to understand GOD'S WORD? Muslim scholars actually use this narration to illustrate the many ways allah informed us about the meaning of his book Roll Eyes basically, the very opposite of what this story REALLY tells us. This takes us to the second point...

    In light of all this, it seems strange for a book to claim itself to be universal and for all times when not even the native speakers of that time could fully understand it. It also seems pretty strange for an all-powerful creating god to chose a multiple of Arabic dialects and loan words to convey his UNCREATED speech. It sounds ludacris, doesn't it? And this is only briefly touching upon the linguistic side of these points. Content wise, the Quran is so full of shit that "expert" scholars had to spend hours upon hours in order to squeeze out every and any existing or imaginary "wisdom". Reading Madaarij al Saalikeen illustrates just how silky it is. It's because these people knew deep down what a shitty book it really is, so they had to cover it up. Who said Muslim scholars didn't engage in cognitive dissonance Smiley


    Yes! Exactly this!

    Another very silly claim regarding the Qur'an is the idea that the 7 (there are actually more than 7, but anway) "riwaayaat" or recitations were all dictated by Allah through Muhammad. Why on earth would an all-wise being waste his time dictating his final communication with humanity in 7 different dialects of a defunct ancient tongue while completely neglecting the rest of the world's languages? And why would Muhammad go around dictating 7 variant versions of a book that was meant to be preserved perfectly?

    The confirmed stories of the different versions of the Qur'an present a huge challenge to the idea that the book has been preserved perfectly. If there was ever disagreement as to what was and what was not the Qur'an, then by default the book has not been eternally preserved. Even if we accept that uthman was able to destroy all variant texts, it still means that for a period of time, the Qur'an was in fact changed.
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #383 - May 09, 2014, 06:09 PM


    Another very silly claim regarding the Qur'an is the idea that the 7 (there are actually more than 7, but anway) "riwaayaat" or recitations were all dictated by Allah through Muhammad.


    lol You know, I actually questioned my shaykh when he went on about the 7 different riwaayaat. I asked, but there are more than seven. He was like no, there aren't. But there are (wasn't there like 10 or 11 of them?). And it was like, yeah there are. But they are seven. Omg, it was one of the most bizarre Q and A sessions we ever had!

    PS. Sorry for the poor grammar and spelling in previous post, that's what happens when you type from your phone early in the morning Smiley

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #384 - May 09, 2014, 06:11 PM

    Exactly. The mere existence of "riwaayaat shaathah" only proves that the Quran can be and has been changed.
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #385 - May 09, 2014, 06:31 PM

    Yes! Exactly this!

    Another very silly claim regarding the Qur'an is the idea that the 7 (there are actually more than 7, but anway) "riwaayaat" or recitations were all dictated by Allah through Muhammad. Why on earth would an all-wise being waste his time dictating his final communication with humanity in 7 different dialects of a defunct ancient tongue while completely neglecting the rest of the world's languages? And why would Muhammad go around dictating 7 variant versions of a book that was meant to be preserved perfectly?

    The confirmed stories of the different versions of the Qur'an present a huge challenge to the idea that the book has been preserved perfectly. If there was ever disagreement as to what was and what was not the Qur'an, then by default the book has not been eternally preserved. Even if we accept that uthman was able to destroy all variant texts, it still means that for a period of time, the Qur'an was in fact changed.

    I don't understand this part you're saying. Is it the same message in 7 different dialects ( or more) or is it 7 messages (or more) that say different things?
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #386 - May 09, 2014, 06:35 PM

    I've always found it odd that the Torah, Gospel, Book of Psalms etc are seen as corrupt and unusable yet the Quran, from being revealed by an illiterate man in the 7th century to the present, is seen as completely unchanged and infallible.

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
     Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
     Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
     Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God." - Epicurus
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #387 - May 09, 2014, 06:37 PM

    It's different dialects. They differ in that, especially some of them, sound very differently and that some words either are completely different or that they are pronounced differently. Compare for example the Warsh recitation and Hafs and how they sound. An example is also the difference in soorat al Faatiha "Maliki yawm al deen" or "Maaliki yawm al deen". Most Quran scholars try to use this to highlight the "magnificence" of the Quran, that allah sent down different "versions" but that the words either carry similar or same meaning, or gives an additional depth to the verse Roll Eyes They just ignore the fact that allah's uncreated word in lawf al mahfoodh apparently had multiple versions. No regards to the theological problems.

    PS. I find it highly amusing that Muslims afterwards tried to cover this shit up by inventing hadeeth about how Umar almost beat up another companion because they recited "different Qurans" and they started quarreling who of them were right. They went to Mo and he was like "you are both right". Thus was the riwaayaat problem solved Grin

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #388 - May 09, 2014, 06:38 PM

    I've always found it odd that the Torah, Gospel, Book of Psalms etc are seen as corrupt and unusable y..........

    yap those scriptures were indeed corrupted by Jews and Christians., those books don't say "they are revealed books" unlike very revealing naked Quran.   It is so naked  we just need to cover it up with burkqa..

    but the secret of Islam is THERE WAS NO MUHAMMAD., This color changing  camalian  Phantom of Islam was created by the warlords of 7th century Arabia  

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #389 - May 09, 2014, 06:39 PM

    Mostly, the 7 recitations have the same meaning. There are instances, however, where because of the differences, the meaning changes as well. The verse regarding making wudhoo comes to mind. In the description, depending on which dialect you use, the instructions regarding wiping or washing the feet change. There are also several examples of nouns changing from a nominative to an accusative form, or from subject to predicate, which also changes the meaning.

    When Muslims claim that "not a letter" has changed, though, this certainly can not be true. In addition to the 7 "accepted" dialects supposedly dictated by Muhammad, there are more that are known as "shaath" or outstanding (I couldn't think of a better translation for shaath, if any Arabic speakers want to help out) recitations that are in existence. The fact that they exist can only mean that the Qur'an was changed and that it can be changed. Just because Uthman destroyed a bunch of versions he didn't agree with does not stop the fact that those versions existed.
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