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 Topic: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?

 (Read 78491 times)
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  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #30 - August 17, 2011, 06:36 PM

    MoeAlharbi,

    Thanks for the insight, however, what seems to be the case is people have been arguing against a Hadith based islam, that is why I requested the 5 strongest arguments against Quran.

    There is a big difference.

    Some people have posted saying they have discussed many issues in the past etc but if anyone has a thread in which several of the strongest arguments were listed against Quran, by consensus, or debated with Quranist or against Quran based islam etc then please link me to it.


    Until then, the challenge still stands: I want the 5 strongest arguments against Quran.

    Feel free to discuss it, get some sort of consensus, then list them.


    To clarify, I am not interested in Quran, I'm interested in the truth, and from my experience of books, articles, forums etc I see a lot of rubbish being talked by both sides: pro-islam, anti-islam (for lack of a better word).

    I am just trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. See what remains.


    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #31 - August 17, 2011, 07:23 PM

    Here's an idea - How about you stop playing Socrates and give us your 5 strongest arguments for the qur'an being divine?
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #32 - August 17, 2011, 07:32 PM

    WhoMan I'd also like to know why you think the Qur'an is divine.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #33 - August 17, 2011, 07:37 PM

    WhoMan I'd also like to know why you think the Qur'an is divine.


    Allah wrote it. DUUUH

    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #34 - August 17, 2011, 08:02 PM

    Hey Whoman,

    I think one of the strongest arguments against the Quran is that there isn't any conclusive evidence of a deity.

    Would you like to provide evidence?
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #35 - August 17, 2011, 08:22 PM

    OK, I'll play, but I'm just going to give only one reason.

    It condemns disbelievers to eternal torture for not believing when there's no undeniable or irrefutable evidence it's true and not just made up shit. This is both irrational and excessively cruel. So either God is a sick and cruel sadist who likes playing games or it's bullshit.

    I know it's a hard choice, Whoman, so I can see why you're having trouble.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #36 - August 17, 2011, 08:23 PM

    edited too Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #37 - August 17, 2011, 08:24 PM

    Shit Z-10 - you're too quick lol - I edited it now hehe...
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #38 - August 19, 2011, 07:08 PM

    Thanks Hassan.

    To make it easier, rather than by consensus, perhaps it would be easier for members to simply list their 5 strongest argument against Quran.

    Then maybe once these lists are reviewed, certain ones will be most popular etc.


     dance

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #39 - August 19, 2011, 07:19 PM

    Thanks Hassan.

    To make it easier, rather than by consensus, perhaps it would be easier for members to simply list their 5 strongest argument against Quran.

    Then maybe once these lists are reviewed, certain ones will be most popular etc.


     dance


    oh ffs whoman just respond to my post and let's have at it.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #40 - August 19, 2011, 07:21 PM

     Cheesy Hassan forever.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #41 - August 19, 2011, 07:25 PM

    But seriously Whoman can you just answer our questions?

    We've taken the time to ask them.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #42 - August 27, 2011, 11:49 PM

    i need to know why five exactly?, isn't one enough for you to know that the Quran is a bullshit

    well i didn't have time to search but i have one for you and you gotta stop wasting peoples time.

    "والارض بعد ذلك دحاها"
    the meaning of "دحاها" is
    والدحو والدحي يقال : دحوت ودحيت . واقتصر الجوهري على الواوي وهو الجاري في كلام المفسرين هو = البسط والمد بتسوية

     flat = البسط والمد بتسوية

    so your god thinks that the earth he made is flat... very clear... & end of the story

    and please you don't need to manipulate the meaning to fit your needs cuz that what Muslims always do.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #43 - August 28, 2011, 03:38 AM

    i think this can, quite unfortunately, be extended to a lot of (i dare say all) religous people in general.

    I would actually go so far as to say definitely all. Think about insignificant humanity, and yet god supposedly cares about every little thing that you [not actually YOU Blade Gunner, but a generalised ‘you’] personally do? That sounds like complete arrogance to me!
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #44 - August 29, 2011, 04:36 AM

    Faulty embryology: Quran thinks bones are clothed with flesh! In reality, there is no clothing of bones with flesh. It happens simultaneously.
    (Now don't waste my time for exact references. This forum is full of it. So does internet. Your your searching skills, if you have any)

    Yajooj/Majooj story with huge wall (18:92-99): Doesn't exist anywhere in the world. Check satellite from google or mapquest.

    Male supremacy/Objectification of women: Husband can beat wife, but not vice versa (4:34).. Man can marry multiple women, women can't. Two women equate to one man in witness and inheritance. Men can get 72 houri's, women can't..

    Its ok to collect war booty as long as you give prophet the 20% share (8:41).

    Many other special verses for prophet's own luxury like 33:50 where he (Allah) allowed any woman to give herself to prophet as a gift. Or other special verse like linger not in the meals prophet invites you as that annoys the prophet (33:53)
    ===============

    Even though one tiny technical glitch is enough to prove that it is not written by someone with divine knowledge and the creator of entire universe, I provided you 5, and some were provided by Hassan and tussude.
    I am not in the mood of 73 pages of going in circles discussion. So this is end of it from me right here!

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #45 - August 29, 2011, 07:47 AM

    Why do you need anyones arguments.?

    If you are happy with quran why bother anyone else?

    Oh i see you want everyone happy like youserlf?

    But one mans hapiness is another mans sorrow....

    In the end though you dont need arguments. All you need to do is believe....











    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #46 - August 29, 2011, 10:22 AM

    oh come on guys! don't we all remember AbuYunus, and how he argued his way from Isalm to atheism?!! Quranists are the easiest!


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #47 - August 29, 2011, 10:30 AM

    I remember a time when I used to relish debates with Muslims over all sorts of details about Islam, the Quran, the Hadiths. I could literally talk for hours about contradiction in the Quran and morally repugnant Hadiths. Now this kind of shit bores me to no end, I can't even be arsed to glance over these debates anymore. It's not even that I don't believe in Islam as much as it is that I've become genuinely indifferent. :-/


    Dearest Jesus Christ,

    I would just like to tell you, in person, how happy I am to see you back in the forum. I won't be contributing much to the discussions here, but it wil always be a delight to at least read your comments.    Smiley

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #48 - August 29, 2011, 10:34 AM

    oh come on guys! don't we all remember AbuYunus, and how he argued his way from Isalm to atheism?!! Quranists are the easiest!




    Who's AbuYunus? What's his story?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #49 - August 29, 2011, 10:39 AM

    here's a snapshot of the story of this poor soul:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14003.msg388863#msg388863

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #50 - August 29, 2011, 10:51 AM

    Haha, so he's an apostate now? Tongue

    Also...

    how's life in your country given your unorthodox Islamic beliefs?


    ... you're not?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #51 - August 29, 2011, 10:54 AM

    Quote
    Haha, so he's an apostate now?

     
    yes... and now his nic is blade gunner, and my comment is mainly meant to tease him, that's all Wink (I used to tell him he'd apostate, and he kept challenging my claim... but i won in the end). Smiley

    Quote
    ... you're not?

    no.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #52 - August 29, 2011, 11:00 AM

    no.


    How would you describe your beliefs, if I may ask?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #53 - August 29, 2011, 11:00 AM

    Also, Blade Gunner? Tongue That's so cool! That he apostatized here.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #54 - August 29, 2011, 11:17 AM

    How would you describe your beliefs, if I may ask?


    I'm a Muslim who doesn't believe in the authority of (Sunni) Scholars, but this doesn't mean I necessarily reject (all) their works. I also believe in the basic Mutazilite attitude towards religion (reason precedes all), but I disagree with many of their conclusions.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #55 - August 29, 2011, 11:17 AM

    Also, Blade Gunner? Tongue That's so cool! That he apostatized here.


    i meant to say: blade gunner = abu yunus.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #56 - August 29, 2011, 11:25 AM

    i meant to say: blade gunner = abu yunus.


    I know, I didn't mean that... never mind, I think we both get each other.

    I'm a Muslim who doesn't believe in the authority of (Sunni) Scholars, but this doesn't mean I necessarily reject (all) their works. I also believe in the basic Mutazilite attitude towards religion (reason precedes all), but I disagree with many of their conclusions.


    I've always been fascinated with more liberal, heterodox Muslims. But the one thing I don't understand is why they're Muslims in the first place. Usually they just tell me it has something to do with fi6ra/hidaaya. Would that apply to you?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #57 - August 29, 2011, 11:35 AM

    Quote
    I've always been fascinated with more liberal, heterodox Muslims. But the one thing I don't understand is why they're Muslims in the first place. Usually they just tell me it has something to do with fi6ra/hidaaya. Would that apply to you?


    no, even though I do believe that my free-will is DEPENDENT on God's will. (Free-will -or the ability to choose- does NOT exist in the absolute sense, according to Quran).

    There's no conclusive evidence Quran is God's word (nor should there be one, otherwise, there won't be any other choice but to believe). A religion (any religion) is a set of claims and arguments. I judge a religion by its arguemnts, as there's no way to verify its claims.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #58 - August 29, 2011, 11:43 AM

    What do you mean when you say you judge a religion by its arguments?

    Also, what is your stance on disbelievers? Is it "wrong", so to speak, not to choose Islam? And is that wrongness worthy of punishment?

    (Sorry if this sounds like an interrogation -- I'm just curious)

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
     Reply #59 - August 29, 2011, 12:43 PM

    Quote
    What do you mean when you say you judge a religion by its arguments?

    here's a very simple example from the Quran:
    Premise: creation is evidence/proof the Creator God exists.
    Argument: since there is no evidence for other deities, then there's no deity but (the Creator) God. That's the basic argument for Islam's central message, monotheism (which is, by the way, very similar to Atheism's argument which is based on a different premise: there's no evidence for any deity at all).

    Regardless of the premise, the argument is sound (personally I believe the premise itself is obviously sound too, but that's irrelevant to judging the argument itself).

    Here's another example from Christianity:
    Premise: Yahweh can never forgive without a worthy sacrifice (it's His nature).
    Argument: Since no man can present a sacrifice worthy of Yahweh, Yahweh sacrifices His own beloved son, whom He loved more than anything else. This just shows how much Yahweh loves you!

    This sounds like when someone wouldn't accept an apology unless they cut their arm first. Is it a convincing argument? Obviously it is to billions of Christians, but not to me, and that's why I'm no Christian and I can never be (the heart of Christianity is Jesus' sacrifice).

    So that's what I meant by my previous statement:

    There's no conclusive evidence Quran is God's word (nor should there be one, otherwise, there won't be any other choice but to believe). A religion (any religion) is a set of claims and arguments. I judge a religion by its arguemnts, as there's no way to verify its claims.

    Quote
    Also, what is your stance on disbelievers? Is it "wrong", so to speak, not to choose Islam? And is that wrongness worthy of punishment?

    no, and no. i discussed this plenty of times before, and i'm only here briefly, and honestly, i'm not interested in discussing Islam any more.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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